HH 2.0 The Iron Tenth: Xth Legion Tactica

[Slips]

Discussion topic with regards to the Iron Hands in the 2nd edition of the Horus Heresy system.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Slips

[RoadRunna]

With no leaks on IH special characters it looks like we will have to wait for the Legends PDF to drop or perhaps a Campaign book in 2023??  Are we the only legion not to have a 2 wound non-terminator Elite choice?

 

Nice to dream of having Morlocks in HH2.0 to be able to create pre-Istvan battles with Ferrus

 

T8 Dreadnoughts against shooting is looking tasty together with twin grav shredder pistols for the IH Moritat to really take down enemy armour with its 12 shots

Edited June 1, 2022 by RoadRunna

[Cadmus Tyro]

Nope, head hunters are one wound each. It makes sense for immortals to be one wound, they’re technically not an elite formation, but a collection of individuals who have failed in their duty. They’re still very durable despite this, -1 str to incoming fire, 5+ invulnerable, FNP 5+ and if taken in the Bitter Iron RoW they gain “heart of the legion”, meaning that on objectives they get 4+ FNP. Combine this with Ld10 and stubborn, means they are not going to be failing many Ld checks, and will hold the line in combat, even if they are taking heavy losses. Seems pretty thematic to me.....

 

Cadmus

[xxunphasedxx]

I think one of the biggest things I am looking forward to this edition is the absolute beat down Ferrus can bring with Brutal. Against Angron on the charge Ferrus is going to hit 7 times (when swinging at Angron, he counts as WS3 as he is all about offence), wound 6 and cause 18 wounds. Ferrus might be the best primarch to dispatch Angron.

 

I’m a little disappointed Gorgons still aren’t WS5 but maybe we will get some more elite termies in the future. Stubborn is a welcome addition.

 

Immortals are resilient as hell. I already played immortals almost every game, now they are even tougher and have more attacks. The loss of a breaching charge and hatred shenanigans takes out a little of their danger in combat. Also unless they changed it, the fail of bayonets on a unit that can’t use them is derp.

 

Grav shredders are going to be crazy at bringing down vehicles, land raiders/ rhinos disgorging 20 haywire assault shots will strip any vehicles to ash.

 

Iron Fathers loadout is awesome but I don’t know what the machinator array ended up as, it added a bunch of stuff to the damage output of a Iron Father. I doubt they would give it back but the old machinator array also gave +1 toughness.

 

Looking forward to confirming all this stuff once we get access to the full rules.

Edited June 1, 2022 by xxunphasedxx

[SmorcInc]

I think one of the biggest things I am looking forward to this edition is the absolute beat down Ferrus can bring with Brutal. Against Angron on the charge Ferrus is going to hit 7 times (when swinging at Angron, he counts as WS3 as he is all about offence), wound 6 and cause 18 wounds. Ferrus might be the best primarch to dispatch Angron.

 

 

Angron only makes the majority of his unit count as WS3. In a challenge you're still dealing with his WS8 because challenges don't care about unit majority.

This is probably why Angron actually has pretty good odds of killing every primarch in the game as long as he starts from turn 3 onwards.

 

Personally a huge fan of Gorgons, because they're very very well priced. For barely more than a basic terminator unit you're getting a 5++ 5+++ and Gorgons can sweep unlike cataphractii which is kind of huge.

 

Machinator Array is two extra attacks at S+1 ap2 Shred Unwieldy Armourbane (melee), as well as a flamer and melta gun.

 

EDIT: Do we think the Bayonets on immortals is a typo from the author just copy pasting a bolter into every unit that has one, or they're going to lose two handed/get some special rule that lets you use them with a Boarding Shield. Because the Ultramarines specific Boarding Shield still doesn't allow two handed weapons.

Edited June 1, 2022 by SmorcInc

[xxunphasedxx]

.

 

Angron only makes the majority of his unit count as WS3. In a challenge you're still dealing with his WS8 because challenges don't care about unit majority.

 

Well oops, I guess I got too excited, Ferrus can still hope for getting lucky then and get some hits, still has a good chance even if he only gets 4 hits to take him out in one go.

[Cadmus Tyro]

Well, Ferrus’ hammer now has the Brutal(3) rule, meaning for every hit caused three saves must be made. He also has a better invulnerable save which improves his chance of survival. Be interesting to see the actual mathammer behind primarch duals now, I’m sure someone will do it in time!

 

Cadmus

[SmorcInc]

Well, Ferrus’ hammer now has the Brutal(3) rule, meaning for every hit caused three saves must be made. He also has a better invulnerable save which improves his chance of survival. Be interesting to see the actual mathammer behind primarch duals now, I’m sure someone will do it in time!

 

Cadmus

Honestly Brutal 3 makes him still a top tier duelist, not gonna beat Horus but sometimes killing an enemy in 2-3 hits is brutal.

[N1SB]

 

T8 Dreadnoughts against shooting is looking tasty

 

Images added just to support your excellent point, Brother:

 

 

That's the big thing I noticed from the Playtest 3 documents, how Iron Hands kept the bonus Toughness Vs Ranged for non-Vehicles...and now Dreadnoughts are no longer Vehicles.  So rather than a It Will Not Die roll, I just get that extra Toughness, which I prefer.  This seems to be an almost ideal match.

 

I was planning on an All-Dreadnought Rite of War army because they took away the penalties (not sure if that's in the final version), so I ask you, Brothers, are Iron Hands pretty much the default Legion for an All-Dread list?  I used to play the Shattered Xth in HH 1.0, I was looking forward to doing Traitor Ultrarmarines, but this is too tempting.

Edited June 1, 2022 by N1SB

[SmorcInc]

 

 

T8 Dreadnoughts against shooting is looking tasty

 

Images added just to support your excellent point, Brother:

 

 

That's the big thing I noticed from the Playtest 3 documents, how Iron Hands kept the bonus Toughness Vs Ranged for non-Vehicles...and now Dreadnoughts are no longer Vehicles.  So rather than a It Will Not Die roll, I just get that extra Toughness, which I prefer.  This seems to be an almost ideal match.

 

I was planning on an All-Dreadnought Rite of War army because they took away the penalties (not sure if that's in the final version), so I ask you, Brothers, are Iron Hands pretty much the default Legion for an All-Dread list?  I used to play the Shattered Xth in HH 1.0, I was looking forward to doing Traitor Ultrarmarines, but this is too tempting.

 

I'd say they are, Ultras provide no buff with the legion ability. Otherwise IW provide some decent buffs since their shoot back reaction is ridonk powerful, Shrapnel bolters are good, and ofc +1 str against vehicles/dreads/automata is just strong. Sallies providing protection against melta and giving it will not die is interesting.

[RoadRunna]

 

 

 

T8 Dreadnoughts against shooting is looking tasty

 

Images added just to support your excellent point, Brother:

 

 

 

 

That's the big thing I noticed from the Playtest 3 documents, how Iron Hands kept the bonus Toughness Vs Ranged for non-Vehicles...and now Dreadnoughts are no longer Vehicles.  So rather than a It Will Not Die roll, I just get that extra Toughness, which I prefer.  This seems to be an almost ideal match.

 

I was planning on an All-Dreadnought Rite of War army because they took away the penalties (not sure if that's in the final version), so I ask you, Brothers, are Iron Hands pretty much the default Legion for an All-Dread list?  I used to play the Shattered Xth in HH 1.0, I was looking forward to doing Traitor Ultrarmarines, but this is too tempting.

 

I'd say they are, Ultras provide no buff with the legion ability. Otherwise IW provide some decent buffs since their shoot back reaction is ridonk powerful, Shrapnel bolters are good, and ofc +1 str against vehicles/dreads/automata is just strong. Sallies providing protection against melta and giving it will not die is interesting.

 

 

Can you run these Contemptors in a Talon like HH1.0?  Is there a still mortis variant or are we stick with p/fist & ranged weapon?

[N1SB]

On 6/2/2022 at 10:30 AM, RoadRunna said:

 

Can you run these Contemptors in a Talon like HH1.0?  Is there a still mortis variant or are we stick with p/fist & ranged weapon?

 

 

So unless they changed it since Playtest 3, you can run Contemptors in a unit of up to 3 Dreadnoughts.  You can replace BOTH the standard "Gravis bolt cannon" AND/OR "Gravis power fist" for all the Ranged weapons, so like 2 Lascannons, then a Havoc Launcher, etc.  I don't see a separate entry for Mortis pattern, because it seems the standard Contemptor datasheet covers all those options, so all the Dreadnought variations and loadout comes from this 1 very flexible unit.  Edit - checked this just last Sunday after HH 2.0 rules out at the Warhammer Store, this remains true, Contemptors can be in Talons and can simply take all Ranged weapons (there's no Mortis variant entry because that'd be redundant).

 

In short, units of up to 3 Contemptors, armed with any combination, all under the Contemptor entry.

 

What's more, again at least for the Playtest 3 document, with the All-Dread Rite of War, there's a special thing.  Instead of needing a Delgatus or whatever unit to unlock it, the All-Dread RoW just says your HQ has to be another single Contemptor, you got to pay a points upgrade that gives it a 4++ invul save and makes it an Independent Character.  Now you have a Dreadnought Independent Character.  I believe that means it can join other Dreadnought units (but not Infantry units).  I think technically it even can join a Leviathan Dreadnought.  If you have a Warlord Trait that buffs any unit it's with, there might be some killer combos.

Edited June 24, 2022 by N1SB

[ArcNitemare]

With the new edition being out and our rules being fully open to us I will share my thoughts.

The Good: I think that Iron Hands are still a great and durable army, with that durability allowing riskier plays with less losses than less durable Legions. I for example plan on running a TSS loaded with Volkite Chargers. Cyber Familiars being a cheap 10 points for +1 to Invuln Saves is going to make for some nice tanky characters. But the unit that I think came out big was the Dreadnoughts, who already look like they will be the kings of this edition.

The Meh: Most of our equipment and special units are not what I consider mindblowing or even worth taking. I will take Gorgon Terminators because I think they look neat, but I'm not expecting much. The second half of our Legion tactic is also fairly unimpressive, really requiring either an extra unit or spending points on Blessed Autosimulacra to make it anything worthwhile.

The Bad: Our Rites of War. As it stands I couldn't see myself using either of them improve the gameplay of our Legion without building a particular way, which may be the point, but with their begin RoW out there that imrpove upon their Legion without asking for too much makes these feel they have few benefits.

Not sure where to put: With the changes to Dreads and ours being even tougher I have to wonder how good Vehicles will play out. I'm also not sure how to feel on Immortals as it seems you need to sink alot of points to make them worthwhile, and while they could benefit from HotL that requires actually objectives. They are tanky, sure, but its still mostly bolter shots.

Of course these are my personal thoughts and I admit to not having gotten a game in yet as my boxset only arrives tomorrow. As always I am willing to accept I am wrong on any and all of these views with data and playtesting under my belt. Until then I wish everyone a good evening.

[Pearson73]

So, any thoughts on whether to give Immortals special weapons? Of course I'll be running them with volkites, but I was wondering if some additional firepower could help.

[Meduson]

4 hours ago, Pearson73 said:

So, any thoughts on whether to give Immortals special weapons? Of course I'll be running them with volkites, but I was wondering if some additional firepower could help.

I was curious about people's thoughts as well. I'm planning on running Company of Bitter Iron and have one 10 man squad so far with volkites and two flamers. I'm planning to bump them up to 15 at some point.

 

My other idea is to run a 10-15 man squad to join my Iron Father and run them with chainswords and maybe melta guns or grav shredders. They would ride in a Land Raider or Spartan. I feel like they could be a decent melee squad with chainswords since they have 2 attacks base now and chainswords seem pretty good.

[Pearson73]

I'm also thinking Company of Bitter Iron, that'll make them a nightmare around objectives. Grav-shredders sound handy, as they'll make it even more unpleasant to charge the squad. Defo thinking of putting a Moritat in there too. 

[Meduson]

With the decent firepower of a full volkite squad I think I'll likely use Immortals to bait a charge and unleash The Gorgon's Spite. Having a Moritat in there doesn't sound like a bad idea...

[Pearson73]

Rad grenades and two attacks each, in addition to overwatch and their resilience will make them a tough unit to crack, one would hope.

[Gaius Atticus]

Once the Dreads get released I am thinking:

Iron Father

20 bolter men (suggestions on if adding a special to the swuad leader is worth it)

10 special or heavy guys. Again no id ehat wrapons would work best, so suggestion welcome, even if it is just for fluff reasons.

3 Contemptors. I'll do a mix of weapons  but if somebody has a sweet loadout for them let me know.

1 siege Dread

1 tank. I'll probably add that one with the autocannons for fluff reasons.

 

So what to add next?

I do intend to get:

10x Immortals

Probably a bunch more dreads

A rhino or two

Ferrus

[xxxjtmxxx]

what kind of row do you want to use?

[Gaius Atticus]

On 7/4/2022 at 12:38 PM, xxxjtmxxx said:

what kind of row do you want to use?

Haven't even considered that tbh. Something fluffy most likely.

[xxxjtmxxx]

the special grav weapon is great. when u want vehicles dead, take these.

 

when u dont choose a row ist hart to tell what is good.

[Slips]

Consider the humble moritat, with 2 grav pistols, being able to shoot both up to 6 times in a single turn via chain fire. Enjoy being able to dish out 12 Haywire shots at something.

[xxxjtmxxx]

yeah that is awesome

[oldhat]

Anyone contemplating a super stompy list of tons of Dreads?

I was tinkering, since I have a bunch of Dreads now really not able to fit into my NL army that I can use elsewhere and my first thought was IH, as I have enjoyed painting them in the past.

I can fit about 6 Contemptors (Volkite Line, one Pod), 2 Pod Leviathans and a Deredeo into a list with Ferrus. Does that seem viable? The army-wide 5+ IWND for Dreads is kinda nice for longevity. It really also makes a wall of T7+ that should be suitably hard to shift.

Thoughts?