HH 2.0 The Iron Tenth: Xth Legion Tactica

[The_flesh_is_weak]

On 7/12/2022 at 4:51 PM, oldhat said:

Anyone contemplating a super stompy list of tons of Dreads?

I was tinkering, since I have a bunch of Dreads now really not able to fit into my NL army that I can use elsewhere and my first thought was IH, as I have enjoyed painting them in the past.

I can fit about 6 Contemptors (Volkite Line, one Pod), 2 Pod Leviathans and a Deredeo into a list with Ferrus. Does that seem viable? The army-wide 5+ IWND for Dreads is kinda nice for longevity. It really also makes a wall of T7+ that should be suitably hard to shift.

Thoughts?

Unfortunately Ferrus’s bonus only applies to vehicles, which dreadnoughts are no longer counted as, so they wouldn’t be able to benefit from the IWND he provides. Despite that though, it would still be an insanely strong list, maybe a little too strong unless you are in competitive meta, otherwise it might need toning down if you want people to keep playing against you lol. 

[oldhat]

1 hour ago, The_flesh_is_weak said:

Unfortunately Ferrus’s bonus only applies to vehicles, which dreadnoughts are no longer counted as, so they wouldn’t be able to benefit from the IWND he provides. Despite that though, it would still be an insanely strong list, maybe a little too strong unless you are in competitive meta, otherwise it might need toning down if you want people to keep playing against you lol. 

Apparently you can't have Ferrus in that list anyhow, because of the mandatory WL requirements. Which is good! I was exploring IH because of the ability to get 5+ IWND, but I think 6+ IWND and the -1 to-wound perk of Sallies is probably stronger for a FotA list.

[The_flesh_is_weak]

I mean the IH -1 strength for all shooting attacks on your dreads is definitely really strong, though the salamanders could likewise be pretty potent, tbh with the changes to dreadnoughts and the FOTA right of war you could pick any legion and it’ll still be a powerful army. 

[Yodhrin]

So I'm planning a small ZM force using Bitter Iron, my Troop choice will obviously be a max(15) size Immortal blob, is it worth maxing out on Shredders or would mixing in one or two different special weapons be the better approach?

I also plan to include a unit of Rapiers, but I'm toiling a bit deciding what weapons to give them. On paper you get a lot of benefits from using the quad cannon maybe also with Splinter shells, but that 12" minimum range on a 3x3 table with a unit that probably won't have anything to charge in and rescue it and will fold like wet tissue paper if charged....eesh. The Laser Destroyer seems like it's probably overkill - assuming I go Shredders on the Immortals I shouldn't have to worry about Dreadnoughts all that much, but I suppose it could serve as a counter to terminators? The Graviton Cannon gets the template benefits with no minimum range, but outside of running into an all-automata mech army once their rules are out I'm not sure the turn of wobbly ground is worth the price over just chucking a hail of shots at the enemy with the default bolter loadout(also tbh something about spamming only one type of "special" gun activates my almonds, and the army would have a lot of grav).

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Yodhrin

[Meduson]

6 hours ago, Yodhrin said:

So I'm planning a small ZM force using Bitter Iron, my Troop choice will obviously be a max(15) size Immortal blob, is it worth maxing out on Shredders or would mixing in one or two different special weapons be the better approach?

I also plan to include a unit of Rapiers, but I'm toiling a bit deciding what weapons to give them. On paper you get a lot of benefits from using the quad cannon maybe also with Splinter shells, but that 12" minimum range on a 3x3 table with a unit that probably won't have anything to charge in and rescue it and will fold like wet tissue paper if charged....eesh. The Laser Destroyer seems like it's probably overkill - assuming I go Shredders on the Immortals I shouldn't have to worry about Dreadnoughts all that much, but I suppose it could serve as a counter to terminators? The Graviton Cannon gets the template benefits with no minimum range, but outside of running into an all-automata mech army once their rules are out I'm not sure the turn of wobbly ground is worth the price over just chucking a hail of shots at the enemy with the default bolter loadout(also tbh something about spamming only one type of "special" gun activates my almonds, and the army would have a lot of grav).

 

While shredder are pretty cool, the rest of the Immortals' arsenal is all anti-infantry based so I am planning on using flamer. Grav shreddres could def act as a deterrent for dreads and such though if you value that. And all their weapons are pretty close range so it'd make sense.

 

Rapiers for ZM might not work so great imo. They could cover long hallways but would have a tough time maneuvering. Beyond that you could probably use any of the weapons, quad would allow flexibility.

[RoadRunna]

Played my first game of HH2.0 last week of 1750pts vs Deathguard playing a shattersrike mission - With a win to the IH - 4vp to 1vp

I ran:

Cataphractii Praetor Iron Father

Moritat with JP and twin grav pistols

Immortals (2 shredders + grav pistol / volkite ) in a LR

2 tac squads in Rhinos

Box dread with 2xLascannons

Laser Vindi

Predator with heavy bolter sponsons + pintle heavy bolter

He had

Delegatus

5 termies with LC in a Spartan

2 tac squads

Leviathan with 2 x stormcannons

3 man scimitar squad

5 man missile launcher

5 man lascannon squad

 

Lessons from the fight:

- DG heavy squads with relentless are great at opening up fire-lanes to bypass the walls you had hidden your vehicles behind

- Leadership tests are brutal.  DG had the missile squad, scimitars and termies run off the board and both tac squads broken during the game

- Mortitat with pistols are a definite auto-include (left the Spartan with 1 Hullpoint after a round of shooting)

- Predator with dakka can push through wounds

- Immortals are tough as nails with high survivability (saves 3+5+5+ / stubborn ) and with 2 attacks can now win an assault

- Iron Father with his 2+ battlesmith kept the landraider alive all game (inc fixing an turn 1 immobilised result)

- IH Advanced Reaction of double-shot with the Immortals resulting in 10 grav shots after a charge being declared by a Leviathan is insanely effective.  Killed it to stop the anticipated charge

- dreadnaughts don't stand up well against heavy weapon squads (but then most tanks don't either)

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by RoadRunna

[Pearson73]

@RoadRunna Nice to see you trying out all that grav, did you find it effective?

[RoadRunna]

16 hours ago, Pearson73 said:

@RoadRunna Nice to see you trying out all that grav, did you find it effective?

Super effective.  JumpPack on the Moritat allowed 12 shots turn 1 on a spartan (but due to night fight and cover save only caused 5 Hull Points).  Immortals "Gorgon's spite" double-tapping a Leviathan also dropped it to its knees in one turn.

[oldhat]

11 minutes ago, RoadRunna said:

Super effective.  JumpPack on the Moritat allowed 12 shots turn 1 on a spartan (but due to night fight and cover save only caused 5 Hull Points).  Immortals "Gorgon's spite" double-tapping a Leviathan also dropped it to its knees in one turn.

How did the Immortals manage that?

[RoadRunna]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:54 AM, oldhat said:

How did the Immortals manage that?

Advanced Reaction of the IH allows them to double-shoot their weapons when a charge is declared.  Immortals had 2 grav shreders (2 shots each) and 1 grav pistol on the Sgt (1) shot.  So when the Leviathan declared the charge the fired 10 shots at it and took off all its wounds with Haywire 

[xxxjtmxxx]

iron Hands are great for defensive play

[Gore Crow]

14 hours ago, RoadRunna said:

Advanced Reaction of the IH allows them to double-shoot their weapons when a charge is declared.  Immortals had 2 grav shreders (2 shots each) and 1 grav pistol on the Sgt (1) shot.  So when the Leviathan declared the charge the fired 10 shots at it and took off all its wounds with Haywire 

Very nice!

 

I love Gorgon’s Spite, my culverin HSS got to use it against a charging suzerain squad the other night. 

They still all died but the look on his face was priceless. 

[Lord Krungharr]

Double overwatch is very spicy.  I liked my double shooting phase reaction with the IronWarriors version when I had my first game.

Strongly contemplating getting some Tartaros dudes to make into Gorgons.  Or just finding some reasonable priced Gorgons.

Can someone declare a charge with a crappy throw-away unit, forcing the reaction...then get the charge off with the actually scary combat unit?  In Age of Sigmar that can be done but haven't have enough practice or study with HH2.0 to know if that's possible.

[xxxjtmxxx]

it could be done. but which slot do you really have free for this Action?

[RoadRunna]

On 8/13/2022 at 6:35 AM, Lord Krungharr said:

Strongly contemplating getting some Tartaros dudes to make into Gorgons.  Or just finding some reasonable priced Gorgons.

 

Don't forget that the Gordon Armour is an upgrade for Cataphractii armour. If you use Tartaros pattern as a 'gorgon' lookalike you may trick yourself into running with them or performing other tartaros actions that Cataphractii can't do.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Nah....I'd say in terms of stats, Gorgon TDA has the most in common with Indomitus TDA.

M: 6, 5++, Heavy keyword (but doesn't deny sweeping advances like Cataphractii)

That's most closely aligned with Indomitus stats.

Also, page 279 of the Liber Astartes book literally says: "A variant of Indomitus pattern TDA devised by Ferrus Manus and his Iron-Fathers...."  So if you want to budget proxy Gorgon Terminators, just get the basic 40k Terminator kit.

Edited August 16, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[9x19 Parabellum]

On 8/10/2022 at 6:42 PM, RoadRunna said:

Super effective.  JumpPack on the Moritat allowed 12 shots turn 1 on a spartan (but due to night fight and cover save only caused 5 Hull Points).  Immortals "Gorgon's spite" double-tapping a Leviathan also dropped it to its knees in one turn.

Man, I missed this the first time crusing through this thread.  I rather happened upon it myself and statted it out and I actually can't believe how good this is.

For 145 points (give him jump pack), you get 12 shots, hit on 2's and strip a hull point (at least) or wound on 2+.  That's an average of 8 wounds to a Vehicle or Dread (no armor saves) before invulns.  That's nuts. 
 

Only question I have...as the Moritat gets a 2nd bolt pistol for free...can you upgrade the 2 bolt pistols to grav and then also keep the chainsword (or upgrade that too in order to have him decent in melee)?

[Pearson73]

Any thoughts on Gorgons and the role that they fill? 

[Cadmus Tyro]

1 hour ago, Pearson73 said:

Any thoughts on Gorgons and the role that they fill? 

Well, I was debating whether they would be good at hunting dreads. They can have 1:3 Grav weapons and you can fit six in a proteus. 
 

The issue I’ve found with shooting and charging dreads is reaction fire, but Gorgons are built to withstand it to a degree 2+/5++/5+. 
 

Cadmus 

[9x19 Parabellum]

So far I've had very bad results with Gorgon terminators.

WS4 is a real problem.  They can't fight Dreads, getting hit on 3's and hitting on 5's.  Against any other marines, they are hitting on 4's at best.  They're blind special rule is cute and all, but has enough special triggers that it rarely kicks in and you can't rely on or plan around it happening.  Their native FnP is nice but insta-death is a problem once you get into melee, so those power fists and such will make it so that doesn't work, and the 5+ invuln isn't enough to reliably survive on. 

So in melee they can bully other basic marines, but I don't think that's a good use of them.

So really that means they are a shooting unit.   The one heavy gun / 3 models is nice but everything aside from the Reaper is short-range, so you really want to be careful you're not putting yourself in charge range of dreads or nasty CC units like Gal Vorbak or Crimson Paladins. I suppose you could load up on minor combis...but in truth, I think i'd rather just take a tactical support guns and make a proper shooting unit for half the price.

[Cadmus Tyro]

Well, you technically don’t have to charge with them. I agree their durability is more to shooting rather than CC where the legion trait will be helping out. 
 

Why not bait that contemptor/leviathan to charge you? Deploy from your proteus, x4 Grav shredder shots. Next turn return fire and over watch (or use the gorgons wrath).

Also, your proteus should be providing fire support to the unit as well. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Cadmus Tyro

[9x19 Parabellum]

so the only issue I have with the proteus is that it has transport of 12...meaning...you either skip that 2nd gun or you skip putting a character in there with them.

 

In my last 2 games...one time I had 6 models with Iron Father Praetor and used the Spartan. The other time I went 9 models (so, 3 guns) and the Iron Father....(also used the Spartan). I love the Spartan.    But we were talking about 800 points for the unit + the DT.   I think I can get better results out of 800 pts somewhere else.  I think I'd rather have a big squad of Immortals.

[Cadmus Tyro]

Well, the question wasn’t “what would I take instead of Gorgons” it was “what are Gorgons useful for”.

I agree, the Spartan loaded with a full squad is perhaps too much points investment. You don’t need a character in the squad, hence the suggestion of x6 Gorgons making use of two Grav shedders. 
 

Cadmus

[9x19 Parabellum]

4 hours ago, Cadmus Tyro said:

Well, the question wasn’t “what would I take instead of Gorgons” it was “what are Gorgons useful for”.

I agree, the Spartan loaded with a full squad is perhaps too much points investment. You don’t need a character in the squad, hence the suggestion of x6 Gorgons making use of two Grav shedders. 
 

Cadmus

Not to "actually" you, but the question was "any thoughts on Gorgons and the role they fill."

My thoughts are that:

-lacking WS:5 relegates them to the role of a shooty unit that can bully some basic marines in close combat.

-their shooting isn't particularly great, and certainly isn't long range, which means...

-you need to be aware of what's about to charge them and its imperative you keep them out of combat against things they can't handle which means...

-combined with heavy, they need a dedicated transport

-all of this means they are a bit too pricey for what they bring. (500-600 pts to threaten midfield shooting and maybe bully some power armor)

 

[Cadmus Tyro]

6 hours ago, 9x19 Parabellum said:

Not to "actually" you, but the question was "any thoughts on Gorgons and the role they fill."

That’s a pretty pedantic response. My post regarding the intention of the query still stands. 
 

Thanks for sharing your opinion and experience with Gorgons. I personally don’t feel they’re over costed for what they bring. 
 

Cadmus 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Cadmus Tyro