HH 2.0 The Ravenspire: XIXth Legion Tactica

[SlickSamos]

Link for the uninitiated:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/n10JM7pGRr4EyfIh.pdf

They are on page 15 

Hope this helps

Slick Samos

 

[Lord Krungharr]

I downloaded the PDF from this link:

 

The Raven Guard Lay Siege to Fulgrim's Perfect Fortress in this Free Horus Heresy Mission - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

 

and the page with the Deliverers is:

 

 

 

Oops!  Looks like they gave us some updates.  Didn't see that in my searches...thank you!

Edited October 19, 2022 by Lord Krungharr

[SlickSamos]

48 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Oops!  Looks like they gave us some updates.  Didn't see that in my searches...thank you!

Sorry, I should have said the link was the updated/errata'd version of the Exemplary Battles units.  Why it isn't rolled into the legacy units pdf idk, would be much better if it was...

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm happy they are less points!  Gonna order my custom heads tonight.  I'm thinking my next big game will be a Raven Guard Recon Company w allied Iron Hands.  I'll put a Master of Signals w a unit of snipers and see how that does.

[The Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I'm happy they are less points!  Gonna order my custom heads tonight.  I'm thinking my next big game will be a Raven Guard Recon Company w allied Iron Hands.  I'll put a Master of Signals w a unit of snipers and see how that does.

Recon Company is Kino

[MichaelCarmine]

19 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

For Dark Furies I throw all of the precision strikes on the things I need dead, I've normally sniped out the Medicae by the time I get into close combat.

 

I do agree with 1 in 5 having a MM. The chieftain is a prime candidate for the powerfist since he has 3 base attacks, meaning he gives more melee swings.

To kill a PM in CC with Claws, you need A LOT of Precision Strike 6s... and even then he's got 3W, 4++/5+++ against your 5s/6s. Granted, i play alot against SoH and the -1malus on wound rolls helps to reroll into 5s/6s.

But even if he'd loose his 3 wounds, since all strikes happen at initiative 5, the other Terminators still benefit from the 5+++, atleast that's what we house-ruled, because otherwise its stupid. ^^

[MichaelCarmine]

Still WiP, but they (Deliverers) will be the Hammer of my Event-Force next week! :D

Didn't like the red color-scheme, went with the (successor) Carcarodons-kinda-scheme xD

Edited October 20, 2022 by MichaelCarmine

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, MichaelCarmine said:

To kill a PM in CC with Claws, you need A LOT of Precision Strike 6s... and even then he's got 3W, 4++/5+++ against your 5s/6s. Granted, i play alot against SoH and the -1malus on wound rolls helps to reroll into 5s/6s.

But even if he'd loose his 3 wounds, since all strikes happen at initiative 5, the other Terminators still benefit from the 5+++, atleast that's what we house-ruled, because otherwise its stupid. ^^

 

It's an average of 100 attacks if you have no chaplain and they're SoH, or 108 normally lol. 

 

Sounds like he meant he snipes out the primus before combat though, which is a lot easier at ~42 sniper shots. Though still...not easily done. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

1 hour ago, MichaelCarmine said:

To kill a PM in CC with Claws, you need A LOT of Precision Strike 6s... and even then he's got 3W, 4++/5+++ against your 5s/6s. Granted, i play alot against SoH and the -1malus on wound rolls helps to reroll into 5s/6s.

But even if he'd loose his 3 wounds, since all strikes happen at initiative 5, the other Terminators still benefit from the 5+++, atleast that's what we house-ruled, because otherwise its stupid. ^^

I feel the SoH bit.

 

In my experience; Nemesis bolter shots all pinged on the PM followed by 40+ attacks with full re-rolls from a chaplain gets you pretty far.

 

3 wounds isn't a lot with how strong RG character killing is.

[MichaelCarmine]

37 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I feel the SoH bit.

 

In my experience; Nemesis bolter shots all pinged on the PM followed by 40+ attacks with full re-rolls from a chaplain gets you pretty far.

 

3 wounds isn't a lot with how strong RG character killing is.

I'd say, that seekers do a much better job than nemesis Bolter in that regard. But yeah, that could work. Though i'd rather focus that kind of power to kill the WL for 3 extra VPs =]

[Dont-Be-Haten]

6 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

I'd say, that seekers do a much better job than nemesis Bolter in that regard. But yeah, that could work. Though i'd rather focus that kind of power to kill the WL for 3 extra VPs =]

It just depends if it's a primarch or not. Seekers are okay, but only precision shots of (4+) versus all shots hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s. A 10 man squad of seekers is only going to be able to snipe 50% of the time, where as all 10 of the nemesis bolters put more pressure overall on the unit. The save rates are about the se statically.

[MichaelCarmine]

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

It just depends if it's a primarch or not. Seekers are okay, but only precision shots of (4+) versus all shots hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s. A 10 man squad of seekers is only going to be able to snipe 50% of the time, where as all 10 of the nemesis bolters put more pressure overall on the unit. The save rates are about the se statically.

 When rerolling 1s to hit because of ICs, i'd say its rather precision shots 60-65% of the time and with breaching (4+) that would be about 3-4 precision beaching hits and 1-2 aditional breaching hits so 5-6 breaching (reroll 1s against special target or ic unit).

A unit of recons cannot compete with that. They'd hit about 75% total, where about 35% are rending. Thats about 3 rending hits at most in total. So Seekers got the same, if not more ap2 on charachters and get additional ap2 on the squad.

A Full Squad is also about 50pts cheaper and much more mobile.

Where recon squads outshine the seekers are against anything above T5, delver pinning and being scoring.

But when i want to remove T4 charakter marine bodys? i'd always take seekers over nemesis recons. 

 

...which does not mean, that i don't also run a 5man squad of nemesis recons along the seekers. ^^

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I run Mor Deythan snipers not recon so if I run a 10 man squad with infravisor I can pretty much snipe out anything I want in a unit. I do really like seekers though. I would love to try them in my next major list.

[Mandragola]

The thing about seekers is that they’re much cheaper than even recon marines with nemesis voters. That, combined with BS5 and breaching 4+ instead of rending 5+ means you’ll get a similar number of wounds on a character while also killing other folk. And with preferred enemy (say from decapitation strike) even half the 1s they roll to hit will become precision shots. 
 

On the other hand of course they don’t score and use up a FA slot. In the end I’ve gone for the “why not both” approach, putting a squad of each in my list, possibly with Kaedes Nex leading the seekers. 

[MichaelCarmine]

9 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I run Mor Deythan snipers not recon so if I run a 10 man squad with infravisor I can pretty much snipe out anything I want in a unit. I do really like seekers though. I would love to try them in my next major list.

I think, mor deythan are pretty much wasted with nemesis bolters. They are much more expensive then on a Recon Squad and do not benefit from Fatal Strike.

 

I mean 335 pts against 200 pts for less ap2 wounds on t4 bodys is not worth it in my oppinion.

You put the same amount of ap2 wounds on models of your choice, but the seekers do more ap2 in general, they also wound on 3s, like the nemesis bolters. The only benefit, the mor deythan have, they put about 2 - 3 more Armor saves on the target you want. That`s all. For 135 pts difference, you could just play 10 seekers AND a squad of 5 Recon marines with Nemesis Bolters ^^

But offcourse everyone can play what they want! =]

[Dont-Be-Haten]

20 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

I think, mor deythan are pretty much wasted with nemesis bolters. They are much more expensive then on a Recon Squad and do not benefit from Fatal Strike.

 

I mean 335 pts against 200 pts for less ap2 wounds on t4 bodys is not worth it in my oppinion.

You put the same amount of ap2 wounds on models of your choice, but the seekers do more ap2 in general, they also wound on 3s, like the nemesis bolters. The only benefit, the mor deythan have, they put about 2 - 3 more Armor saves on the target you want. That`s all. For 135 pts difference, you could just play 10 seekers AND a squad of 5 Recon marines with Nemesis Bolters ^^

But offcourse everyone can play what they want! =]

 

 

4 hours ago, Mandragola said:

The thing about seekers is that they’re much cheaper than even recon marines with nemesis voters. That, combined with BS5 and breaching 4+ instead of rending 5+ means you’ll get a similar number of wounds on a character while also killing other folk. And with preferred enemy (say from decapitation strike) even half the 1s they roll to hit will become precision shots. 
 

On the other hand of course they don’t score and use up a FA slot. In the end I’ve gone for the “why not both” approach, putting a squad of each in my list, possibly with Kaedes Nex leading the seekers. 

I understand the reasoning. 

 

I look at it like this: You are relying on short range shots versus long range. Seekers and Recon Marines pay more for nemesis bolters, and don't have relentless which is important when you can't get the high ground and need to adjust to get better firing arches. Plus you have 2 wounds versus 1 when looking at survivability against small arms fire.

 

Seekers look fun, I think taking up a fast attack slot is very risk vs. reward especially since they would compete with land speeders and dark furies. My game experiences have shown me those options feel superior to a seeker squad. I'd just rather have better melee and hardy melta.

 

I don't really like Recon Marines in RG. They don't offer the same flexibility they offer to other armies that they do for us.

 

A 20 man Despoiler Squad or Tactical Squad with Apothecary is much more fierce and blankets a larger foot hold, and the lack of heavy support puts urgency to Melta, Plasma, & Volkite squads to replace those needs.

 

Plasma squads in Raven Guard are just powerful, so is Volkite, melta is rather expensive, but can be relied on in small meltacide squads to take down AV that also force target priorities.

[MichaelCarmine]

40 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

 

 

I understand the reasoning. 

 

I look at it like this: You are relying on short range shots versus long range. Seekers and Recon Marines pay more for nemesis bolters, and don't have relentless which is important when you can't get the high ground and need to adjust to get better firing arches. Plus you have 2 wounds versus 1 when looking at survivability against small arms fire.

 

Seekers look fun, I think taking up a fast attack slot is very risk vs. reward especially since they would compete with land speeders and dark furies. My game experiences have shown me those options feel superior to a seeker squad. I'd just rather have better melee and hardy melta.

 

I don't really like Recon Marines in RG. They don't offer the same flexibility they offer to other armies that they do for us.

 

A 20 man Despoiler Squad or Tactical Squad with Apothecary is much more fierce and blankets a larger foot hold, and the lack of heavy support puts urgency to Melta, Plasma, & Volkite squads to replace those needs.

 

Plasma squads in Raven Guard are just powerful, so is Volkite, melta is rather expensive, but can be relied on in small meltacide squads to take down AV that also force target priorities.

i rarely need to move with "heavy" weapons, thanks to infitrate ;)

And you don't equip Seekers with other Nemesis Bolters, they have 24" S5 AP4 Assault 1 Breaching(4+) Rounds, stock. Why would i downgrade them by paing for other weapons? 

Seekers infiltrate onto the battlefield and have a 30" threat range. thats more then enough to face multiple targets. 

 

I rather put points into Dreadnoughts, than into Speeders. And thats why with me, Elite-Slots are very scarse. One Contemptor, one Castraferrum for AA and Deliverers leave me with one Elite Slot, and IF i choose to use Mor Deythan, than they have to work for their points. They do that with Combi Weapons, where atleast their Fatal Strike triggers, other than with Nemesis Bolters. 

I'm just saying - 335pts for 3AP2 wounds on a char/special weapon is a big waste of points. For halve of that (165pts) Nex puts 2 24" S6 Ap2 (Brutal 2) Sniper shots on the money - while moving 14".

 

You could also just ally Imperial Fists for +1 to hit Recon Squads + maybe a castellan for scoring HSS? ^^

 

Also - instead of a 5 man Melta Support Squad, you could just pay 10pts more for a dropping 5 man Melta Veteran Squad. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by MichaelCarmine

[Dont-Be-Haten]

28 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

i rarely need to move with "heavy" weapons, thanks to infitrate ;)

And you don't equip Seekers with other Nemesis Bolters, they have 24" S5 AP4 Assault 1 Breaching(4+) Rounds, stock. Why would i downgrade them by paing for other weapons? 

Seekers infiltrate onto the battlefield and have a 30" threat range. thats more then enough to face multiple targets. 

 

I rather put points into Dreadnoughts, than into Speeders. And thats why with me, Elite-Slots are very scarse. One Contemptor, one Castraferrum for AA and Deliverers leave me with one Elite Slot, and IF i choose to use Mor Deythan, than they have to work for their points. They do that with Combi Weapons, where atleast their Fatal Strike triggers, other than with Nemesis Bolters. 

I'm just saying - 335pts for 3AP2 wounds on a char/special weapon is a big waste of points. For halve of that (165pts) Nex puts 2 24" S6 Ap2 (Brutal 2) Sniper shots on the money - while moving 14".

 

You could also just ally Imperial Fists for +1 to hit Recon Squads + maybe a castellan for scoring HSS? ^^

 

Also - instead of a 5 man Melta Support Squad, you could just pay 10pts more for a dropping 5 man Melta Veteran Squad. 

I don't have the elite slot for a veteran squad and being able to move 16" over terrain with 3 MM or deep striking them is a very strong play. I already run 1-2 contemptors in my list. Depending on points etc.

 

I've found I really like Speeders and how they play. The versatility they have offered me would like to see a second squadron so fast attack options are fairly limited. :(

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm hoping to get in a game next Friday (not sure which of my friends I'll be playing against, possibly Death Guard, or World Eaters).  I'd like to try out some Salamanders as allies to my new RG Recon Company, and the Deliverers plus a pair of Javelin Speeders instead of just 1.  Any opinions on the Warlord Trait I should use?  Really not sure how this would pan out as I lack firepower, but my local crew doesn't use bunches of vehicles....yet; just the odd Spartan or Sicaran. 

 

Hoping to deploy the Recons w Master of Signal and the Vigilator w the Scouts.  Because of Battle Bros I think I can put the Delegatus joined with the big Salamanders Tac Squad/Primus Medicae in the Kharybdis?  Just to keep the Warlord safe?  Or is that unwise?

 

It'll be neat to reroll the go first die, and if that fails, the Seize Initiative roll, and reroll my Reserves from the Master of Signals.  Deepstriking the Deliverers and zooming in the Kharybdis most likely.  The latter has proven to be somewhat useful at whittling down pesky infantry with the Deathstorm cannon.

 

Raven Guard, Rite of War: Recon Company
Primary Detachment

95    HQ1: Legion Delegatus (Warlord:   
95    HQ2: Master of Signal

95    HQ3: Vigilator
179    Troops 1: Legion Reconnaissance Squad x7 w Nemesis Bolters
115    Troops 2: Legion Scout Squad x5 w Nemesis Bolters
385    Elites 1: Deliverers x7 w 2 Chainfists and 5 pairs of Raven Talons
210    Fast Attack 2: Javelin Squadron
 

1174     Total

 

Salamanders Detachment v1
Allied Detachment

105    HQ1: Primus Medicae
210    Troops 1: Legion Tactical Squad x20 w Vexilla
275    Elites 1: Legion Destroyer Assault Squad x10 w 2 Toxiferran Flamers/5 dual Hand Flamers/3 power mauls
235    Heavy Support 1: Legion Kharybdis

825    Total 

 

1999 Army Total

[suxdavide]

Are the javelins made off cut drop pods? :O

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Pros:

I like the core of this list. You have a very strong melee unit with a chance to re-roll your reserves. The Master of Signal is one of my favorite consuls personally. Though I really wish he had a strong shooting unit to give that BS2 to.

 

An allied detachment of destroyers looks like a lot of fun, I think they make a good base outside of normal lists.

 

I really like the Deliverers. They are one of my favorite units for RG. And you have a decent loadout on them, they are expensive but a great dual threat.

 

Cons:

In my experience Decapitation Strike RoW is too valuable and one of the strongest RoW out there. So giving that up as a primary doesn't feel right for RG.

 

The Delegatus can’t join the Salamanders in the vehicle due to transport sub-type. Page 13 of the Liber Astartes.

 

I think there are better uses for Salamanders as an allied detachment.

 

4 HQs in a 2,000 points list is 1 too many in my opinion. 

 

Solutions:

Taking a Delegatus isn't doing you any favors in challenges. Does h3 have a jump pack? If so Hidden Hand would be a good trait. Otherwise it & Bane are probably out. Normally i would suggest Stoic Defender for an extra chance at pinning units, but you don't have anything that will benefit more from it. Maybe bloody-handed for the +1 combat resolution bubble? Ever-vigilant offers more mobility and offers 2 reactions during the movement phase. Idk brother, pickings seem slim.

 

I would drop either the vigilator or the MoS to free up 95 points. I'd then look at taking a seeker squad, or more points around to give the Delegatus a jump pack and take Hidden Hand (if he doesn't have one). 

[Lord Krungharr]

13 hours ago, suxdavide said:

Are the javelins made off cut drop pods? :O

Yeah, I scoured all my bits bags for those.  Drop pod pieces, biker chassis for the core, Hammerfall Bunker struts, lord of Skulls belly guns for the engines, soul grinder armor underneath, and random lascannons.  And 3d printed cat helmets.

[suxdavide]

13 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Yeah, I scoured all my bits bags for those.  Drop pod pieces, biker chassis for the core, Hammerfall Bunker struts, lord of Skulls belly guns for the engines, soul grinder armor underneath, and random lascannons.  And 3d printed cat helmets.

Thanks, cool!

 

I'll just try to ignore the last sentence (as I did with the photos) :P

[Dont-Be-Haten]

@MichaelCarmine what thread were you talking about BoT giving +2 to the strength characteristics and not just +2 strength?

 

Going from S10 to S12 on a thunder hammer is absolutely awesome. That forces outriding even strong named characters like Abbadon. So many cool possibilities!

[MichaelCarmine]

3 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

@MichaelCarmine what thread were you talking about BoT giving +2 to the strength characteristics and not just +2 strength?

 

Going from S10 to S12 on a thunder hammer is absolutely awesome. That forces outriding even strong named characters like Abbadon. So many cool possibilities!

That's another miswording on GWs part...  BoT gives +2 on the strenght charakteristics, instead of +2 strength, which led me to believe, that, with a weapon like a Thunder Hammer, which doubles the base strenght(charalteristic), the attacks would be held at Str. 12 [(4+2)×2]. 

But, as "multiple modifiers" in the rulebook shows - you first multiply, then add or substract. Though they do specifically mention Strength +1 and not Strenght Charakteristic +1/2, i think its just another miswording...

Which still means, the WL would be Str10 AP2 Brutal 2 (and thus instand death) against Abbadon, or any other Independent Char with T5 or BattleHardened(1).

Edited November 12, 2022 by MichaelCarmine