Black Library Siege of Terra - Garro: Knight of Grey

[Kastor Krieg]

8 hours ago, m_r_parker said:

I'm kinda resurrecting a dead thread, but I just got my copy of the book today (had it sent to my local store, and last week it was shut for a refit), and this book is very light on the page count - even more so than than I had feared. I haven't read anything yet, so no spoilers. 

It was listed as being 144 pages, let me break down how much of this is actual story:

• The first page of the story is page 15, the last is page 128 - so technically we're already down to 113 pages. In fact I have no idea where the 144 pages came from, my copy (the Ltd Ed) stopped numbering pages after 131, and manually counting the rest gets me to 137 before I hit the back cover.
• Between p15 and p128 there are 5 blank pages, between the chapters to ensure that the starting page of a new chapter is always facing the same way.
• There are also a further 2 pages set aside for artwork, although I don't actually mind these are they're always very good.

So in terms of actual narrative in this book, we're actually down to 106 pages. Hardback version of this book is £18, for £20 you can get the hardback version of Echoes of Eternity for over 4 times the page count. My mind is boggling over this right now, this could have been part of a short story collection with some over pieces tying up loose ends for characters instead of its own standalone release.

Cheers, glad to have skipped it then! 

[Matcap86]

Yeah got this one for collecting the LE series but I actually contemplated skipping it. It's both not very good (in my opinion) and very lacking in content. 

[skylerboodie]

I liked the story for what it is, but agree it would've been better as the headline story in an anthology.

[GenerationTerrorist]

I read the whole book in 3 hours last night.

Surprised how short it was. The story is pretty good, but not exactly unpredictable.

 

I also think it the first time I've seen Euphrati Keeler depicted in artwork.

Please feel correct me if she has been illustrated in any of the other HH/SoT series of books.

[Petitioner's City]

Yes I rather enjoyed this; it's brevity was to its credit, it was sweet and simple and - dare I say it? - touching.

 

I don't get the sometimes vitriolic dislike for Swallow on this forum, not least because he's a very warm and well regarded writer by his colleagues (including Arthur C Clarke award winners like the briliant Una McCormack). He's a lovely person to chat with on other forums (eg trekbbs *) and very honest about writing in general there, something we see a little bit of in the afterword to this novella - namely, at some point Swallow envisioned ending Garro's narrative as an audio drama, but changing trends at BL made it a prose conclusion, which he mentions changed to some extent the finale.

 

*(For a good place to see tie-in lit writers talk, including about difficulties in their industry, including Swallow, do read through this q&a thread. While some qus are specific to the IP, it's actually a gold mine for seeing very experienced tie in writers and editors from NA and the UK just talk shop across franchises and publishers).

Edited February 1, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[cheywood]

When it comes to fiction it’s easy to go into new experiences with pre-conceived biases. We, as humans living in an age of endless stories, are intimately familiar with narrative structure and the creators whose works we consume. In short, we know what to expect, or at least we think we do. I think this is especially true for 40k fans, as the setting, for all its impressive variety, still circles around the same themes, concepts and authors with regularity. This is pleasing in that I know I can pick up almost any work by an author I like and enjoy it. But it’s limiting in that I’m often reading stories expecting a certain reaction, which obviously can impair my analytical abilities. I did my best to go into Knight of Grey unburdened by my dislike for Swallow’s past work, and as a result I think there are a few cool moments, even if in general I found the novella rather bad, especially at the end. I still think it’s the worst Siege story by a decent margin, as I expected going in, but it’s not absolutely without value. Perhaps that also reflects that I didn’t entirely transcend my biases. 
 

To start with this is clearly intended to be a story of limited scope. There are 7 characters with speaking parts and the whole thing knows not to overstay its welcome. A welcome change from Graham’s novellas at least. Personally I think this is because Swallow wrote it all out as an audio drama and did relatively little to convert it to prose. The lack of description and annoyingly declamatory dialogue seem to support this. Not a great sign in terms of Swallow’s respect for the peculiarities of different formats, but it still reads okay from a moment to moment standpoint when compared to Swallow’s other work. 
 

The plot is relatively light - Garro wants to save Keeler and does so by sacrificially confronting Mortarion, but in the broad strokes it works. Until the end that is. Swallow just had to give Garro’s death more significance than is deserved. Garro becoming a daemonhost or Garro dying to save Keeler in a display of his faith and purpose would’ve been fine, but seriously wounding Mortarion just feels entirely not in keeping with the vibe of the setting. Not everyone’s death needs to result in a moment of great significance. The fight scene at the end also took way too long. 
 

random thoughts: 
 

I was also struck by the absurdity of Garro proudly declaring that his embrace of his purpose, his limitations, is what separates him from Mortarion, as though evolution is the problem with the traitors. Clearly that’s not the case, Garro and all the loyalists evolve throughout the series just like the traitors. The difference is in what aspects of themselves the traitors and loyalists have embraced, what universal truths they pledge themselves to. Mortarion even realizes Garro has changed greatly, and says as much a few pages later. Maybe I’m just philosophically dense, but this felt to me like one of the most unintentionally dumb lines in the entire Heresy. I kept waiting for Swallow to address the flaws in his logic but he didn’t. Again, maybe I missed something.
 

On the other hand I really enjoyed the way Keeler points out that the Heresy is as much about the endless dying pawns as it is the grand players. I think that poses an interesting question to readers about how they define the Heresy in their own eyes: is it as much about the countless billions dead as it is the Emperor’s fate? The scene with Gallor, Garro and Keeler talking together was the highlight of the book by far. 

Conclusion: 

In the end I think the most significant critique of this book isn’t found in the text itself. It’s found in Echoes of Eternity. There ADB tells the story of Rykath, also known by his deed name No-Foes-Remain. It’s about six pages and features a character who previously has appeared in only a single short story. ADB puts more emotional resonance and beautiful prose in those six pages than Swallow manages in an entire novella. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by cheywood

[Brother Tyler]

This novella is out in the wild now, so I'm moving the discussion over to the Black Library forum.

[cheywood]

16 minutes ago, Brother Tyler said:

This novella is out in the wild now, so I'm moving the discussion over to the Black Library forum.

Thanks Brother Tyler! Could you or @Kelborn please combine this thread with the other Knight of Grey thread? It’s a little confusing to have two posts on the same subject. 

[Brother Tyler]

Done

[DarkChaplain]

It's extremely counterintuitive to have Black Library novels being discussed at length in the news section instead of here, the actual board for the books....

[Moonreaper666]

A much better way to do Garro's last story is change many aspects of this novella:

 

-Have Typhus solo Marmax garrison, reinforced with extra Conscripts and Blackshields, using a powerful one-time spell. Keeler is the only survivor

 

-Typhus tasked a no-named Death Guard Sorcerer to hunt her down. Garro arrives with soldiers to protect Keeler. Garro's force is wiped out but they kill the Sorcerer

 

-More Loyalist reinforcements arrive to protect Keeler. Mortarion arrives and slaughters them all. Garro dies but he inflicts a wound on Mortarion that slightly reduces his speed. Keeler gets away.

 

-Mortarion's wound is why the duel with Khan ended with his banishment

[System Sound]

3 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

A much better way to do Garro's last story is change many aspects of this novella:

 

-Have Typhus solo Marmax garrison, reinforced with extra Conscripts and Blackshields, using a powerful one-time spell. Keeler is the only survivor

 

-Typhus tasked a no-named Death Guard Sorcerer to hunt her down. Garro arrives with soldiers to protect Keeler. Garro's force is wiped out but they kill the Sorcerer

 

-More Loyalist reinforcements arrive to protect Keeler. Mortarion arrives and slaughters them all. Garro dies but he inflicts a wound on Mortarion that slightly reduces his speed. Keeler gets away.

 

-Mortarion's wound is why the duel with Khan ended with his banishment

No. No just no

[Roomsky]

Garro: Knight of Gray - James Swallow (Audiobook)

 

Wow! This sucks!

 

Like, listening to it actually put me in a worse mood. It's an attempt to be a character piece about a gaggle of uninteresting characters, how thrilling! I've never liked Garro, there is nothing to him beyond stale nobility. I enjoyed Gallor tearing a strip out of him if only because he spends the entire story being a sanctimonious ass. And I hate hate HATE Swallow's Keeler (and super-saintly Keeler in general.) The Siege has had her back on track for so long I had blotted out the supreme vapidity of the waifish, wise-beyond-her-years Jesus figure that occupied much of the Heresy. Mortarion is okay, but it's nothing we haven't seen before, and better done.

 

The plot is what anyone could figure out by looking at the cover. I'd argue a plot summary doesn't even count as a spoiler, because it's what I'd have written as a guess before reading. There are so many more interesting things to have been done. Dare I say it, confronting the fact he isn't some chosen by destiny hero would have done Garro's character some good. Maybe he fails spectacularly, or maybe he's too late and needs to make due with Typhon, or no named baddie at all, and lives or dies facing down the fact he's not the hero of destiny. But nope! This "tragedy" ends with our man skewerd on Mortarion's scythe after giving the primarch a verbal dressing-down, spitting in his eye and with a knife in his throat, all his faith vindicated. The short flashbacks were fine; I wish we'd got them back in Eisenstein. Even Swallow's nominal ambition in plotting and world building is absent here.

 

It's crap.

[Felix Antipodes]

I think you’re exaggerating @Roomsky… it’s nowhere near that good 

[Fedor]

So would it be more accurate to say it turned out to be Garro: :cuss:e of Grey?

 

I'll get my coat...

Edited March 4, 2023 by Fedor

[DukeLeto69]

On 3/3/2023 at 8:30 PM, Roomsky said:

Garro: Knight of Gray - James Swallow (Audiobook)

 

Wow! This sucks!

 

Like, listening to it actually put me in a worse mood. It's an attempt to be a character piece about a gaggle of uninteresting characters, how thrilling! I've never liked Garro, there is nothing to him beyond stale nobility. I enjoyed Gallor tearing a strip out of him if only because he spends the entire story being a sanctimonious ass. And I hate hate HATE Swallow's Keeler (and super-saintly Keeler in general.) The Siege has had her back on track for so long I had blotted out the supreme vapidity of the waifish, wise-beyond-her-years Jesus figure that occupied much of the Heresy. Mortarion is okay, but it's nothing we haven't seen before, and better done.

 

The plot is what anyone could figure out by looking at the cover. I'd argue a plot summary doesn't even count as a spoiler, because it's what I'd have written as a guess before reading. There are so many more interesting things to have been done. Dare I say it, confronting the fact he isn't some chosen by destiny hero would have done Garro's character some good. Maybe he fails spectacularly, or maybe he's too late and needs to make due with Typhon, or no named baddie at all, and lives or dies facing down the fact he's not the hero of destiny. But nope! This "tragedy" ends with our man skewerd on Mortarion's scythe after giving the primarch a verbal dressing-down, spitting in his eye and with a knife in his throat, all his faith vindicated. The short flashbacks were fine; I wish we'd got them back in Eisenstein. Even Swallow's nominal ambition in plotting and world building is absent here.

 

It's crap.

The completist in me was going to buy this (and the two McNeill SoT novellas) but maybe I will listen to my head and not my heart (my wallet just gave a sigh of relief).

 

Perhaps pick this up as a paperback. Are the SoT books being released as MMPB or only Trade Paperbacks?

[Roomsky]

1 hour ago, DukeLeto69 said:

The completist in me was going to buy this (and the two McNeill SoT novellas) but maybe I will listen to my head and not my heart (my wallet just gave a sigh of relief).

 

Perhaps pick this up as a paperback. Are the SoT books being released as MMPB or only Trade Paperbacks?

 

The novels are getting MMPBs, no word on the novellas yet. I assume once McNeill drops a 3rd those 3 will be compiled into a MMPB. 

 

I do actually recommend McNeill's btw, genuinely good finishes to his threads, and the novellas format means they can be focused in a way most Siege books aren't.

[Sothalor]

Everything that happens in Garro could have been done in one of the mainline novels.

 

Actually, come to think of it, the events of Garro could have been done in Warhawk as part of the opening act. Condense down the dialogue and the action scenes and just have Garro sacrificing himself so Keeler can escape from Mortarion. That would have worked well to further solidify Mortarion's threat and menace in that novel by heightening the personal stakes. It would also have worked well to launch Euphrati Keeler's mindset shift into her "skulls-for-the-God-Emperor", "we can do the math on how many children to turn into suicide bombers to take down one Astartes" arc. 

[Dornfist]

I listened to the audiobook of this story. Toby Longworth is my headcanon Garro voice and I think he did a good job despite my issues with the story.

 

Spoiler

Regarding what I liked, it was Garro dying to Mortarion, though admittedly him dying to Typhon would have been equally good. Garro had to die: there was no way he could survive an encounter with Mortarion regardless of whatever God-Emperor power boost he got. I also liked Garro's vision of the afterlife which implies he may become a Living Saint. I appreciated the mention of Loken though it's sad he is not there to talk to Garro one last time. I also liked the callbacks to Flight of the Eisenstein with the Garro/Morty interactions being told from the POV of the Reaper of Men.

 

As to what I disliked, there was a lot. Typhon being so insolent to Mortarion, Keeler being at the front lines which messes up the Siege chronology post-Mortis, the plot armor is strong with Gallor, the long drawn out duel between Mortarion and Garro, and of course Garro's last strike. This last aspect had me laugh so hard due to how silly it seems that Mortarion would fall for this a second time against the Khagan which now robs the emotional punch the Khan v. Mortarion duel had in Warhawk. Like did the Siege authors not exchange notes for the big duels they would cover in the Siege series?

 

That is my take anyway. I wonder if we will be getting more Siege novellas later this year.

 

 

[EverythingIsGreat]

Good day,

 

Read the novella and then this thread. The main impression was that this work was unnecessary as others have said.

 

Spoiler

Imo the entire novel is basically Garro’s ultra-stretched death scene. Every other character and action is basically setup for it. Well, also shows Mortarion with enough petulance to equal Fulgrim’s. He’s in need of serious intervention, since he can’t get over Garro for some reason, well after they both start seeing other people.

 

Is there a chance Garro will pull a Loken and reappear? There is leeway considering the end which cam be used in a future telling to bring him (or his soul) back for more. Guess that depends on what GW & BL have in mind. But keeping characters in some sort of obvious or hinted limbo is a neat trick development-wise. Can you hear me, you up there in the Golden Throne.

 

Personally, I would have preferred Loken staying dead and Garro staying alive, as others have said. Related to that preference, I wish some stories didn’t turn really good, full-bodied characters into wargaming caricatures. But such is the nature of the WH40K beast.

 

Art-wise, I thought the image of Keeler and Garro was pretty nicely rendered, and highlights their character traits beautifully. Not that the other art was bad, but this Keeler image (forgive the pun) was right on point.

[Moonreaper666]

Would have been better if there were fewer Traitors in this Novella but they were much more powerful and going crazy in their killing spree

 

Have it basically be a chase scene like in a horror movie in which Keeler runs past countless retreating Conscripts and Refugees as they are slaughtered by 7 Death Guard Marines, the leader becomes a Daemon Prince

 

Keeler is cornered and is about to die when Garro and his Company intervenes and allows Keeler to flee to safety. The Daemon is banished and his six Marines killed but Garro and his Company all die in the process

[Nagashsnee]

Not going to lie, Monnreapers story sounds better then what we got. Plus having a deamon prince ( the end of the road power/reward wise for chaos) vs one of the Imperial proto saints sets the stage (since we just HAD to cram the origins of the faith in the HH) nicely for the next 10k years. 

 

Much better then a mini Khan vs Mortarion buts its before the Khan vs Mortarion but ends the same way as the Khan vs Mortarion fight we got.

[Ubiquitous1984]

The novella would have been better if it was released after Mortis, but before Warhawk.  It would have retained at least some element of tension then.  

 

Better still, as another Frater mentioned, have it as part of Act 1 of Warhawk.  

[Dornfist]

12 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

The novella would have been better if it was released after Mortis, but before Warhawk.  It would have retained at least some element of tension then.  

 

Better still, as another Frater mentioned, have it as part of Act 1 of Warhawk.  

Heartily agree with this. This novella really messed up the Siege timeline post Mortis and robbed the punch out of elements of "Warhawk". Seems the planning for the Siege was not as ironed out as we thought. I liked Garro dying which ended his arc neatly, but it definitely took too long to get there.

[Sothalor]

I'd love to know some of the "behind the scenes" details about stuff like this. Was there some significant scheduling delay that arose from COVID or supply chain infrastructure or another cause?

 

How committed was the BL staff to having James Swallow be the one to conclude Garro's story? Were there scheduling conflicts there? (He does a lot of other work, after all)

 

Was Knight of Grey planned before or after Warhawk was completed? Did Swallow end up writing KoG without full details of other plot points and timelines and character arcs?