Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[Guest]

The biggest issues about Primaris was not the models imho...

 

My biggest issue was the Lore, next the rules and this false divide created...

 

The fact that Primaris can't get in a Land Raider is god damn joke and not a funny one.

 

I love the Primaris range as a whole and fully in that camp... But they are just Space Marines.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They are new Space Marines and have extra organs… therefore, they are not just SM.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

They are new Space Marines and have extra organs… therefore, they are not just SM.

It's dumb LOL but yeah.

[phandaal]

14 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

 
lit might be meaningless to you but that’s you and obviously geedub thinks different.

 

Okay, in what way did I get this wrong:

 

16 hours ago, phandaal said:

"Primaris" is almost meaningless already, in the land of "60% of the time, the Rubicon works every time."

 

The main tabletop difference is whether your models are transhuman enough to make your opponent wound on 4+, or if your models bump their heads trying to get into a Land Raider. Transhuman-like rules are a dime a dozen these days, and the transport thing is a silly restriction that very few people genuinely enjoy.

 

It is less a question of pleasing the few who begrudge Primaris and more a question of what is even the point of Primaris anymore.

 

Telling me to take my chips off bro is not really offering any reason for what makes the Primaris keyword important to 40k.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s obvious you  don’t like Primaris… BUT plenty people do. It sucks to have to scroll through all the random diatribes posted in threads like this one. There’s things I don’t like but I choose not to focus on them. 

[phandaal]

49 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

It’s obvious you  don’t like Primaris… BUT plenty people do. It sucks to have to scroll through all the random diatribes posted in threads like this one. There’s things I don’t like but I choose not to focus on them. 

 

That is an opinion on me (inaccurate by the way - I own thousands of points of Primaris), but it does not explain your claim.

 

What about the "Primaris" keyword is important enough that people would be upset to see it go?

 

The tabletop distinction is essentially "can/cannot use Transhuman Physiology strat" and "can/cannot ride in this transport." That is how I see it, so please - what about that is inaccurate?

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

 

Okay, in what way did I get this wrong:

 

 

Telling me to take my chips off bro is not really offering any reason for what makes the Primaris keyword important to 40k.

 

I'd say that the lore has primaris being meaningfully different. But giving firstborn the extra wound messed that up from a rules perspective, they never really worked out what they were doing after that.

 

The lore has primaris as larger, stronger, tougher, possibly faster not to mention also able to recover from near-death injuries more easily.

 

right now the rules have them get an extra attack and have access to strats that cover the stronger and tougher and then they have a rule that does a hamfisted job of showing they're larger (the transport rules)

 

Personally, I'd like to see:

• primaris units have something ON THE DATA SHEET that represents the points above (could be increases S and T, could be getting an extra wound back, could be extra MOV, could be built in transhuman on primaris units, who knows).
• primaris units be more expensive
• removal of the dumb transport restrictions
• removal of stratagems in general (won't happen), so at least reduction in strats.
• removal of the primaris keyword (because the things its relevant to don't exist).
• OR they do as Reinhard said, and say ALL marines have gone through the rubicon now, remove the keyword, adjust primaris units so they're worth using, relative to firstborn units and still get rid of the restricitons and keywords.

[phandaal]

13 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

OR they do as Reinhard said, and say ALL marines have gone through the rubicon now, remove the keyword, adjust primaris units so they're worth using, relative to firstborn units and still get rid of the restricitons and keywords.

 

To me this seems like a good solution. This is the main thing I was trying to get an answer on.

 

Apparently, this would be a very bad idea because it would make a lot of people upset. Would like an explanation of this point. I have not seen a whole lot of people who are heavily invested in there being two kinds of Space Marine forever.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Everything Hamster said regarding what make them distinct. Stop derailing the thread.

Edited December 27, 2022 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[phandaal]

27 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Stop derailing the thread.

 

This seems to have touched a nerve somewhere, so for the record - there is no beef here. If you look up the chain here, I have been attempting to turn personal comments directed at me back towards something resembling an answer to a post you made 22 hours ago.

 

That said, you do not get to turn around after all that and tell me I am derailing this thread. That is not how this works.

 

Next time just say up front that you do not want to answer, and spare me the time.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Issues with making Primaris into firstborn:

 

The hypocrisy of wanting a retcon to make Primaris magically disappear when there was an all out multi thread years long flame war against the retcon to introduce Primaris.

 

The discrepancy between models that are firstborn versus Primaris - oh just hand wave it man, smoke and mirrors (this is really disturbing to me veterans would be okay with this lame approach)

 

Ignoring Primaris has been with us over five years now.

 

And there are plenty other issues as well.

Edited December 27, 2022 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Blindhamster]

Tbf, I think people were suggesting you make all marines primaris, not all marines firstborn. 

[Guest]

I am so damn sick of this divide of Primaris/Firstborn.

 

 

[jaxom]

Preface: I like the Primaris models alot and I would probably buy more if new units were released. However, I think anything we get in the future is icing on the cake. The Primaris have a complete range, but are held back by not-great rules per points cost. Any new Primaris units aren't going to fix that problem, because they'll either be too expensive for what they can realistically do before death (e.g. Gladiators) or just have crap rules (e.g. Reivers)

 

What makes a range complete? That got me thinking about Votann and the Primaris; they've a (somewhat) similar line up.

• Kahl - Primaris Captain, Primaris Lieutenant
• Einhyr Champion - Primaris Lieutenant, Primaris Gravis Captain
• Grimnyr - Primaris Librarian, Phobos Librarian
• Brokhyr Iron-Master - Primaris Techmarine
• Hearthkyn Warriors - Intercessors
• Sagituar - Impulsor
• Einhyr Hearthguard - Aggressors
• Cthonian Beserks - Assault Intercessors, Aggressors
• Hernkyn Pioneers - Outriders, Invaders, Suppressors
• Brokhyr Thunderkin - Eradicators, Hellblasters
• Hekaton Land Fortress - Repulsor, Repulsor Executioner

The Primaris then also have Gladiators, Storm Speeders, Redemptor Dreadnoughts and all the other Vanguard units; plus rumors of another heavy support unit and melee dreadnought. They have a generic range. Is it any surprise that so many people read the Votann rules and saw them as the replacement for one wound Marines? Or as the new elite-but-not-too-elite-I-can-still-fit-alot-of-bodies army?

[spessmarine]

the split is the more irksome bit, it always had the feel of GW trying to get you to rebuy your army
thankfully houseruling is a thing that many people may be able to do (depends on your local scene), yeah bro, your tacticals and intercessors can both hop in the party bus (spartan)

roll with what marines you want

Edited December 27, 2022 by spessmarine

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@jaxom - I agree for the most part but I think assault Jump Infantry is a big hole for us right now, and I wouldn't be shocked if the first Primaris jump pack unit overlaps to much with outriders. When in doubt, GW gives us Primaris units that rely on a large volume of str 4 attacks. That said it really doesn't matter what we need, there is a lot of demand for Primaris so I think we'll get a steady diet of them.

 

One thing that I would like for Primaris range would be for GW to remake the other chapter specific upgrade sprues to be at the same level as the Black Templar one. Some unique relics and an alternate loadout for a Primaris unit would be a pretty cool way to make the chapters have more of an identity.   

[Bryan Blaire]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Tbf, I think people were suggesting you make all marines primaris, not all marines firstborn. 

I know that I was suggesting making all Marines Marines…

 

I’m not sure what exactly other people think that means, but to me it means “No special keywords dividing anything, all Marines have the same base rules, with access to all the same stuff.”  I’ll leave it to GW to decide exactly what that means rules-wise beyond that wish.

[Blindhamster]

Lore wise, the only way that can happen now, is for all marines to cross the rubicon, they can easily say all marines crossed it but many refused new wargear instead having their existing stuff adjusted.

 

was kind of my point. 
 

to get to everything having the rules, everything needs to be the same in the lore now, and primaris marines have been very clearly stated in the lore as having things that made the rubicon worth crossing. 
 

GW wrote themself into the corner where that’s the only real option that would mean you could get rid of the rules distinctions and still keep “firstborn” units

[Karhedron]

21 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

to get to everything having the rules, everything needs to be the same in the lore now, and primaris marines have been very clearly stated in the lore as having things that made the rubicon worth crossing. 

 

It doesn't really though. There can be differences in lore that are not significant enough to be represented on the tabletop. Remember that it takes a huge amount of genetic engineering to boost an S3 T3 human to an S4 T4 space Marine. Marines are probably stronger and tougher than any real human alive today. Primaris might be T4.2 if you could have such a thing. You can have in-lore fluff saying Primaris are better without having to represent that in rules.

 

I gave an example earlier of how FB and Primaris could be represented by a unified entry that could build a classic Tactical squad or an Intercessor squad. To my mind it is the best of both worlds as it allows players to use their model collections how they want without being hamstrung by adistinction that is becoming less and less relevant on the tabletop.

[WrathOfTheLion]

On 12/26/2022 at 3:22 PM, Karhedron said:

 

This is the puzzling thing. Stats-wise they are pretty much the same as Loyalist ones (they get an extra attack in place of shock assault which is a slight improvement but not massive). So why are they better? Is it the combination of Marks and codex-specific buffs they can take?

The marks add a lot, and the support they have from elsewhere is what really makes them. The Black Rune of Damnation is a great relic, and the support from a Master of Possession and/or a Dark Apostle adds on top of that.

 

Other units can be similarly buffed, such as Possessed or Chosen.

Edited December 28, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Blindhamster]

22 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

It doesn't really though. There can be differences in lore that are not significant enough to be represented on the tabletop. Remember that it takes a huge amount of genetic engineering to boost an S3 T3 human to an S4 T4 space Marine. Marines are probably stronger and tougher than any real human alive today. Primaris might be T4.2 if you could have such a thing. You can have in-lore fluff saying Primaris are better without having to represent that in rules.

 

I gave an example earlier of how FB and Primaris could be represented by a unified entry that could build a classic Tactical squad or an Intercessor squad. To my mind it is the best of both worlds as it allows players to use their model collections how they want without being hamstrung by adistinction that is becoming less and less relevant on the tabletop.

Honestly the suggestion sounded bad, what you were basically saying was “make tactical squads with bolt rifles” not “keep intercessors worth using”.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

 

 

I gave an example earlier of how FB and Primaris could be represented by a unified entry that could build a classic Tactical squad or an Intercessor squad. To my mind it is the best of both worlds as it allows players to use their model collections how they want without being hamstrung by adistinction that is becoming less and less relevant on the tabletop.

 

Man that would be so good.

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Honestly the suggestion sounded bad, what you were basically saying was “make tactical squads with bolt rifles” not “keep intercessors worth using”.

 

One does not preclude the other. Tactical squads do not have to be bad to make Intercessors good.

 

Arguably, merging the profiles of FB and Primaris Marines would cut down on the amount of bloat in the codex and make it easier to balance overall. Marines currently have 6 Troop units but only 2 see regular play in tounement lists. I am not saying that merging FB and Primaris will magically fix the Marine codex but consolidating unit entries will make it easier adjust the rules and points since there will be less unexpected interactions. It will reduce the risk that buffing a unit or rule will break something else.

[Captain Idaho]

8 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I gave an example earlier of how FB and Primaris could be represented by a unified entry that could build a classic Tactical squad or an Intercessor squad. To my mind it is the best of both worlds as it allows players to use their model collections how they want without being hamstrung by adistinction that is becoming less and less relevant on the tabletop.

 

I think this is ultimately what settles the unease many players would have.

 

At the end of the day, I don't care what collections other people have and how you build your armies, I ain't buying a new Marine army! I just want to use my models.

 

That's just personal, but many "Firstborn fans" were of the the same opinion. There are things about the lore that some folk might not like and may have influenced for some, but ultimately it comes down to this really. After all, at the moment I really can just use my Firstborn model so anything to do with the lore doesn't stop that. (I have stopped reading it as all this progress in the story thing isn't my cup of tea)

 

Ultimately, it's our own personal hobby. Folk like Primaris and they're happy to build their armies with new models GW create? Great! One of my best friends has a mixture of Firstborn and Primaris and couldn't be happier. I enjoy playing him. His army is expertly painted and our games rock!

 

Really what I'm saying is the attitude GW should maintain is allow us to play with our toys and I support @Karhedron's statement on the spirit it was intended.

 

Funnily enough, here is GW's attitude on it when discussing a tournament event (2020 but there'sno reason to believeit has changed), which to me proves all they care about is allowing us to use our models. My question:

 

 

Their answer:

 

 

So bringing the discussion back to point, I think the rules can easily be combined to "Space Marine Battle line" and you build a Tactical squad or Intercessor squad as needed. It's entirely possible once the rules are in place GW will start to produce new Primaris armed with Tactical Squad weapons, though that would be a long, long term approach.

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

It's here I'd like to point out legends, or at least what I thought would be the point of legends, a back catalogue of everything GW has made in the past, making those legal through an always available online legends codex or some such.

 

At least I feel as if though they haven't pushed it nearlly enough, and then there's the rather odd decision of adding the new Primaris Company Champion as a Legends only new model (due to limited availability?)

 

I dunno, I feel like the potential to make sure things were always usuable through legends was always there, but people/GW(both?) didn't accept/push it enough?