Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

One does not preclude the other. Tactical squads do not have to be bad to make Intercessors good.

 

Arguably, merging the profiles of FB and Primaris Marines would cut down on the amount of bloat in the codex and make it easier to balance overall. Marines currently have 6 Troop units but only 2 see regular play in tounement lists. I am not saying that merging FB and Primaris will magically fix the Marine codex but consolidating unit entries will make it easier adjust the rules and points since there will be less unexpected interactions. It will reduce the risk that buffing a unit or rule will break something else.

what I’m saying is your suggestion means anyone that bought into primaris would have the inferior version of that unit and have to buy more stuff to make it good, whilst anyone that has old tactical squads get /another/ free upgrade to the unit at no financial investment.

 

whereas, keeping the units distinct would mean both units could be adjusted (even if you got rid of the primaris keyword) to be better in their own right.

 

edit-

 

that said, I think your suggestion is probably what will happen, because it means they could release an updated intercessor squad with tactical special and heavy weapon options and essentially get everyone that supported primaris to buy things again, whilst the people that refused to buy into them the first time they basically write off as unlikely to buy into anything else.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Blindhamster

[Captain Idaho]

I'm of the school of thought that Troops choices in power armour that don't infiltrate can easily be rolled into a single datasheet to save time. They come with bolters and can have the following bolters upgraded. If no bolter upgrade they get the Tactical options.

 

Saves space repeated across the Codex.

 

Balance is handled by points.

[lansalt]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

that said, I think your suggestion is probably what will happen, because it means they could release an updated intercessor squad with tactical special and heavy weapon options and essentially get everyone that supported primaris to buy things again, whilst the people that refused to buy into them the first time they basically write off as unlikely to buy into anything else.

GW has already done that with the Kill Team boxes of CSM, Tau pathfinders or Phobos. A future extra sprue to make "tactical intercessors" seems like a reasonable bet.

[Blindhamster]

9 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'm of the school of thought that Troops choices in power armour that don't infiltrate can easily be rolled into a single datasheet to save time. They come with bolters and can have the following bolters upgraded. If no bolter upgrade they get the Tactical options.

 

Saves space repeated across the Codex.

 

Balance is handled by points.

 

except wargear is going free, and even if it weren't, wargear is almost awalys better to take. So again what you're saying is "meh, i have my old stuff and want that to be good, if you bought primaris stuff, tough, buy some more stuff to make it up to par with the rolled in units".

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

what I’m saying is your suggestion means anyone that bought into primaris would have the inferior version of that unit and have to buy more stuff to make it good, whilst anyone that has old tactical squads get /another/ free upgrade to the unit at no financial investment.

 

whereas, keeping the units distinct would mean both units could be adjusted (even if you got rid of the primaris keyword) to be better in their own right.

 

Why would Primaris Marines become inferior?

 

Let's assume that "Battleline" Marines receive the following hypothetical unified stat-line

 

M 6"

WS 3+

BS 3+

S 4

T 4

W 2

A 3

Ld 8

Sv 3+

 

They get an RF bolt gun which can be exchanged for Assault or Heavy versions.

A squad of 5-9 Marines can take a special weapon from Flamer, Melta, Plasma or AGL.

A 10-man squad can take 1 Special + 1 Heavy or 2 Special

Sergeant can take a melee weapon

 

That gives a unit entry flexible enough to build a classic Tactical Squad or an Intercessor squad that is legal from the current kits. If someone really wants to build a Primaris Tactical squad you can drop in a Hellblaster or Pyreblaster for the special weapon but there is no need.

 

Then you price the Marines and options appropriately and you have a unit that is balanced for both FB and Primaris. No one gets downgraded and Primaris are not inferior either to FB or to their current incarnation. I honestly think this proposal solves several problems with the current split with no downsides that I can see. It allows:

• Players can run FB or Primaris squads in any mix without anything becoming obsolete
• No downgrading to current units
• Cuts down on codex bloat which in turn helps make balancing points easier
• Supports the addition of special/heavy weapons to "Intercessor" squad in future

Edited December 28, 2022 by Karhedron

[Lemondish]

14 hours ago, jaxom said:

Preface: I like the Primaris models alot and I would probably buy more if new units were released. However, I think anything we get in the future is icing on the cake. The Primaris have a complete range, but are held back by not-great rules per points cost. Any new Primaris units aren't going to fix that problem, because they'll either be too expensive for what they can realistically do before death (e.g. Gladiators) or just have crap rules (e.g. Reivers)

 

What makes a range complete? That got me thinking about Votann and the Primaris; they've a (somewhat) similar line up.

• Kahl - Primaris Captain, Primaris Lieutenant
• Einhyr Champion - Primaris Lieutenant, Primaris Gravis Captain
• Grimnyr - Primaris Librarian, Phobos Librarian
• Brokhyr Iron-Master - Primaris Techmarine
• Hearthkyn Warriors - Intercessors
• Sagituar - Impulsor
• Einhyr Hearthguard - Aggressors
• Cthonian Beserks - Assault Intercessors, Aggressors
• Hernkyn Pioneers - Outriders, Invaders, Suppressors
• Brokhyr Thunderkin - Eradicators, Hellblasters
• Hekaton Land Fortress - Repulsor, Repulsor Executioner

The Primaris then also have Gladiators, Storm Speeders, Redemptor Dreadnoughts and all the other Vanguard units; plus rumors of another heavy support unit and melee dreadnought. They have a generic range. Is it any surprise that so many people read the Votann rules and saw them as the replacement for one wound Marines? Or as the new elite-but-not-too-elite-I-can-still-fit-alot-of-bodies army?

Your side by side comparison really highlights just how poor the unit rules are for primaris units, holy throne.

[Captain Idaho]

@Blindhamster I've clearly not said that. Why can't points costs and weapon adjustments be amended?

 

If you're concerned with the rumoured points changes granted to Tactical wargear which will make Intercessors obsolete, the problem will be the same with 2 datasheets as 1.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Blindhamster]

If wargear goes free (which seems to be the case), no you wouldn’t get the same issue if the sheets are separate, because they can adjust the units individually in terms of stats and abilities and even what the bolt rifle vs bolter does. 
 

merge them and give free wargear and no, you’re essentially telling people with primaris their units are now totally inferior without spending more money on them.

[Captain Idaho]

When has GW, ever, adjusted any of the Datasheet stats for Space Marines with a balance patch? New Codex? Sure. But having multiple datasheets for something they could do but never have in like 5 years?

 

Seems like my dad keeping the boxes for everything he buys because HE COULD use them, but the house gets cluttered and we end up arguing when I try to clear it out.

 

Your point makes an assumption the wargear will always be the same *(free) and GW won't just make Bolt Rifles better on this combined datasheet.

 

Make them Rapid Fire 2, 36" and S4 AP-2 and folk might take them over Incursors again.

 

I don't want any unit to be obsolete. It's in the Codex so needs something. Exception to this is Reivers. They're just Incursors to me and are a clumsy attempt at a concept that just hasn't really worked.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Blindhamster]

Was under the impression we were talking new codex as much as anything else. Also in the combined unit, it sounds like karhedron was suggesting bolt rifles are the default and there’s no distinct bolter profile 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Blindhamster

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'm of the school of thought that Troops choices in power armour that don't infiltrate can easily be rolled into a single datasheet to save time. They come with bolters and can have the following bolters upgraded. If no bolter upgrade they get the Tactical options.

 

Saves space repeated across the Codex.

 

Balance is handled by points.

 

Troops choices that do infiltrate can also be rolled into a single datasheet. Hell, they already come in the same box!

[Captain Idaho]

26 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Was under the impression we were talking new codex as much as anything else. Also in the combined unit, it sounds like karhedron was suggesting bolt rifles are the default and there’s no distinct bolter profile 

 

Well the final product can go in any direction. He was giving an example to emphasise a point rather than the final preferred outcome, though I don't want to speak for him so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Personally I'd give them standard bolters, remove the special Bolters from Reivers, Infiltrators and Incursors and give them standard bolters too. Then upgrade from there for Intercessors on the Battleline sheet. (I think having separate bolter rules for all 3 Phobos units is absurd and they add very little to the game and are just another example of bloat. Keep such differences in smaller scale, Kill Team like games)

 

And a new Codex can definitely see a new datasheet with the appropriate rules on it to boost them. They can even have a Rapid Fire built in rule if all armed with Bolt Rifles, rather than a messy and resource dependent Strategum later. Lots of options.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

28 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Personally I'd give them standard bolters, remove the special Bolters from Reivers, Infiltrators and Incursors and give them standard bolters too. Then upgrade from there for Intercessors on the Battleline sheet. (I think having separate bolter rules for all 3 Phobos units is absurd and they add very little to the game and are just another example of bloat. Keep such differences in smaller scale, Kill Team like games)

 

But again, you think this as someone who just got through saying that you don't own ANY Primaris units and aren't about to start getting any now. You're not exactly objective.

 

Some of us LIKE the differentiation between units. And we aren't keen on having it taken away to appease players who don't even own the units in question.

[Bryan Blaire]

@Blindhamster and @Lord Nord - are you really arguing that you should have more special rules/be a special snowflake/be more important and valued on the tabletop simply because you spent more money than someone else?

 

Because right now, that’s really what it sounds like you are arguing - “I spent my money - more than those other guys that didn’t buy in, GW, acknowledge me as more important!  Give me the rules that I deserve!”

 

As far as what they do lore-wise with anything - as far as I care, they could retcon the entire last five years or so and it wouldn’t make a lick of difference to me.  GW can write the lore they want, very little of it is “good” in my eyes.  All of the stuff that has been done lore-wise with the Marines in the last five years has been to prop up the poor decision of trying to please all parties of Marine players at once while rescaling Marines - all the lore, all the rules separations, etc.  “Look, you don’t have to buy the new Marines in the new scale - all your old stuff can still work, here’s the rules.  Look, if you want the new scale Marines, here’s new rules for you to use for them, and we’ve even made some new story about how cool they are!” - all in the name of pleasing everyone.  None of that is “good”.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Hardly.

 

My issue is with the dishonest concern trolling from someone who doesn't even own the units in question and is in fact obviously biased against them.

[phandaal]

27 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

 

But again, you think this as someone who just got through saying that you don't own ANY Primaris units and aren't about to start getting any now. You're not exactly objective.

 

Some of us LIKE the differentiation between units. And we aren't keen on having it taken away to appease players who don't even own the units in question.

 

I own the units in question.

 

They could definitely be rolled in to a single datasheet. Infiltrators/Incursors should be a wargear choice. Reivers are used more for their helmets than as an actual unit, so toss some of those in the box and make it a "terror troop" upgrade or something.

 

Intercessors could stand to be rolled into Tacticals as well. They are a Troop Tax filler for when you do not have the extra points for Phobos. Combining them with Tactical Marines would give us the option for a special weapon besides that doofy grenade launcher at least.

[Bryan Blaire]

12 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

Hardly.

 

My issue is with the dishonest concern trolling from someone who doesn't even own the units in question and is in fact obviously biased against them.

Well I own units of all stripes of Marines and have forces that are spread across Unforgiven/DA, BA blood line, and Space Wolves, and what Karhedron is proposing is more in line with what I’d like to see occur with Marines than the suggestion of “keeping them separate”.  Acting like it some how invalidates your purchase because you like them separate is also disingenuous unless you are arguing from a stance of “I bought it - it should stay better/special because you didn’t buy it.”  You even said “we aren't keen on having it taken away to appease players who don't even own the units in question” - emphasis mine.

 

Give an argument for why it shouldn’t be viewed as that…

Edited December 28, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

"Intercessors should have more weapons choices so that they can more conveniently be combined with my Firstborn Tactical Marines."

 

"Infiltrators, Incursors, and Reivers should have their Bolt Carbine statlines combined because choice is confusing."

 

Pick one.

[phandaal]

3 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

"Intercessors should have more weapons choices so that they can more conveniently be combined with my Firstborn Tactical Marines."

 

"Infiltrators, Incursors, and Reivers should have their Bolt Carbine statlines combined because choice is confusing."

 

Pick one.

 

Minus the deliberately absurd phrasing, the answer is "do both" because both of those represent a consolidation of datasheets.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Not confusing, but absolutely pointless bloat. Ideally marines should get grouped together based on standard armor, Phobos armor, and Gravis armor. If you're Phobos you can have a knife for +1 attack and a carbine for assault out to X distance, plus your choice of upgraded gear like shock grenades and spooky helmets, or you can swap that out for chainsword and heavy pistol. If you're Gravis you can have heavy bolter/melta/flamer spam but everyone in the unit has to be the same. Finally, if you're standard you get the rapidfire 1 with ap-1 out to 24 or assault 3 with no ap out to 18, can take the normal tactical spread of special weapons, or can exchange for heavy bolt pistol and chainsword. Better weapon choices in exchange for no forward deployment or deepstrike. Tah dah, no more ten million units. Throw Primaris keyword out the window. Everyone can play MARINES.

[Bryan Blaire]

14 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

"Intercessors should have more weapons choices so that they can more conveniently be combined with my Firstborn Tactical Marines."

 

"Infiltrators, Incursors, and Reivers should have their Bolt Carbine statlines combined because choice is confusing."

 

Pick one.

Neither of those is an argument on why what you are trying to say isn’t “I bought it, it should stay special.”  In a manner of viewing, your purposeful absurd wording and avoiding of actually trying to articulate an argument points specifically to what I have stated actually being your issue and you can’t form a reason that it isn’t.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[phandaal]

At some point we could actually see weapon sprues for Intercessor squads just like they did for Horus Heresy. That would be a great step towards opening up more flexibility while giving the option to consolidate some datasheets.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

10 minutes ago, phandaal said:

At some point we could actually see weapon sprues for Intercessor squads just like they did for Horus Heresy. That would be a great step towards opening up more flexibility while giving the option to consolidate some datasheets.

 

I've been saying that for some time.

 

But I haven't also been saying that the different Bolt Carbines for Infiltrators, Incursors, and Reivers is "too confusing" and needs to be reined in.

[Blindhamster]

I didn’t say special, I said I want intercessors to be their own thing, because that’s what’s been sold, and I want them to be a viable alternative to tacticals. Merging the two doesn’t do that, all it does is make it so that suddenly the stuff I bought is inferior because it didn’t come with special/heavy weapons like the existing tactical squad whilst people that have firstborn tactical squads would get another upgrade with their base guns getting marginally better. Of course, they might go and make a hyper complicated datasheet where you can have bolt rifles and no special/heavy weapons or bolt guns and access to special/heavy weapons but at that point you’ll start getting into messier and messier wording.

 

intercessors had a role compared to tacticals when first released, they were tougher but didn’t hit as hard for shooting, they were objective sitters and funnily enough.. units designed to intercede for other units, being passable in melee (like assault marines) and comparably tough. That role has been eroded more and more to the point they’re already arguably worse than tactical squads these days, rather than sidegrades.

 

that said, and I already said this earlier, you guys just like picking fights it seems… 

but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the next step for intercessors is indeed to add a special/heavy weapon sprue that basically just makes them tacticals, and at that point they just say tacticals and intercessors use the same datasheeet. It’s just that that’s annoying because it means I essentially suddenly have a bunch of bolter marines that will almost certainly be balanced and costed around having those special and heavy weapons.

 

the “bloat” doesn’t really bother me, from a balancing perspective it makes sense, you can work out what each unit or variant weapons role is and set points and rules appropriately, BUT I do totally understand that some people want a lighter book because it may be confusing for some. 

so yeah, to reiterate, I don’t want “snowflake” better units, I want the units I purchased to remain viable and interesting for what they are (without needing to fork out a bunch of extra cash for replacement models to make those units again), I don’t particularly want to see them go away… what’s mad is that I can’t see how people that regularly complain about the same fears for firstborn don’t understand that. (And, I’m someone that doesn’t want firstborn to go away, nor do I think it’s on the cards, personally)

[Blindhamster]

But yeah, I think consolidating intercessors and assault intercessors into one sheet would be good.

 

I think consolidating infiltrators and incursors into one sheet would also be good

 

i think reivers need to be given rules and stats appropriate to an elite unit, that way there is a good elite choice for a phobos themed army.

 

I don’t really feel or see the need to merge guns, because to me it makes sense to have them distinct for balancing purposes.