Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[phandaal]

8 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

 

I've been saying that for some time.

 

But I haven't also been saying that the different Bolt Carbines for Infiltrators, Incursors, and Reivers is "too confusing" and needs to be reined in.

 

Doubt anyone is sitting at home puzzling late into the night over "what does bolters mean," but I think we can agree that there are too many varieties of boltguns in the Space Marine codex. We have 9 different types of bolter in the Troops slot alone. Go into the other slots and we have even more. Heavy Intercessors also have 3 different types of Heavy Bolter.

 

Adding a special weapon to a squad is not the same as having one or multiple different flavors of bolter for many different infantry units.

 

Hence why I say that consolidation can take place at the same time as opening up more options for the units that remain.

[Blindhamster]

No, I think that was Lord Nords point, he doesn’t agree that bolters need to be consolidated. Fairly sure that’s what he said? 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

10 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

No, I think that was Lord Nords point, he doesn’t agree that bolters need to be consolidated. Fairly sure that’s what he said? 

 

Exactly. I'm in favor of complexity and choice, not JUST the type of complexity and choice that miraculously conforms to Firstborn precedent and is conveniently proxied by same.

[phandaal]

My point is - if we actually look at the numbers of bolters in our codex and give it honest consideration, I think we would end up agreeing that not every one of them is really necessary. Assuming from the emoji reaction this was confusing - hope that clears things up.

 

We should also be able to acknowledge that wanting to reduce the number of bolters is not inconsistent with wanting to roll Tactical weapon options into Intercessor squads. Choosing to add a heavy weapon to the squad is not exclusive to having a consistent bolter profile.

[Blindhamster]

I like the three bolt rifle variants, and actually use all three. I like the marksmen bolt carbine, I don't like the incursor bolter, it kinda sucks, I like the rievers current carbine profile actually. I like the eliminators bolter option, I like the heavy interecessor bolter options (and use them). Also, the confused fase was because it seemed like you said "we will agree" whilst actively disagreeing with what Lord Nord had said, that was all. I understood your actual point.

 

regardless of all this. We'll probably know more in 6ish months.

 

no matter what happens, some people will no doubt be unhappy, because there's always someone that's unhappy.

 

So.... those brutalis dreads, jump infantry and rocket troopers huh? Those sound different and new lol. I'm actually really most excited for the prospect of perhaps a gravis lieutenant and gravis librarian or chaplain though haha

Edited December 28, 2022 by Blindhamster

[Marshal Reinhard]

7 minutes ago, phandaal said:

My point is - if we actually look at the numbers of bolters in our codex and give it honest consideration, I think we would end up agreeing that not every one of them is really necessary.

So very tempted to reply "Sure, get rid of the boltgun" here. But it's not actually reflective of how I really feel on the matter. But gets a smidget of a point across?

 

It's always easier to negotiate someone else's options away. For people with just heavy intercessors, having 3 distinct heavy bolt rifle profiles is probably a lot more important than to someone with none. I'm never much in favor of removing anything added, it's not fun when its your things removed, be they a weapon or special character that suddenly needs to die to satisfy  some apparent lethality quota. You may find the number of bolters absurd, I may find it cumbersome, but there are probably people who don't...

Edited December 28, 2022 by Marshal Reinhard

[phandaal]

28 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I like the three bolt rifle variants, and actually use all three. I like the marksmen bolt carbine, I don't like the incursor bolter, it kinda sucks, I like the rievers current carbine profile actually. I like the eliminators bolter option, I like the heavy interecessor bolter options (and use them).

 

I have used all of the profiles as well. Especially on Heavy Intercessors back when I was trying to find a build that would make them not suck.

 

However - not counting heavy bolter variants, storm bolters, sniper bolters, bolt pistols, twin-linked bolter variants, master crafted bolter variants, or special issue bolter variants, there are something like 15 different bolters in the Space Marine codex right now.

 

So when someone says maybe we can reduce complexity and also we could give a unit like Intercessors some heavy/special weapon options, both can be true. If we approach the discussion from that viewpoint rather than "look at this dingus making contradictory statements, time to show them how wrong they are and win at Internet" we would probably find some common ground.

 

  

23 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

It's always easier to negotiate someone else's options away.

 

No doubt, except in this case they are my options too.

Edited December 28, 2022 by phandaal

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Funnily enough, consolidating the datasheets would actually encourage me to buy more Primaris, as then I wouldn't feel so annoyed about the continually existing rift in a product that doesn't need one. Primaris was a bad move and we should put it behind us. Go back to calling them Marines, or Adeptus Astartes, or whatever. Make a cheeky elite unit called Firstborne that's bad ass veterans and be done with it.

 

But just how I don't need 15 different rules for Auto Guns to represent the difference between an SMG and an AK, I don't need 15 different kinds of bolter. Trim it to 4, make them distinct, and get on with life. Model them with gangsta side grips if you want to feel special, I don't care.

 

 

[Blindhamster]

But, I’m not trying to show you up or anything (in fact, I’ve made no remarks about individuals at all, unlike some others in this conversation). I’m simply saying I don’t agree with the sentiment of needing to reduce “complexity”. To me, the bolter is THE marine weapon, so if we can have variants appropriate to different roles and they can get the rules right for them, that’s a good thing from my side.

 

tactical squads for example, generally you take them for the special and heavy, the bolt shots are wasted, same for devastators, you don’t take them for the extra bolters, you take them for “ablative wounds”.
 

To me, I’d rather have them tune the distinct units all armed the same way so that those units feel good for all their guns. That is more interesting to me, and a part of why I like the primaris unit designs. I like the aux grenade launcher in theory because it is essentially a combi weapon so the marine still has the actual bolter type chosen too.

 

if they roll the units into one, I’d still want them to keep the variant bolt rifle or carbine or whatever options (and honestly doubt they’ll go anywhere any time soon as they’re a sizeable chunk or a few of the kits sprue space).

 

I ultimately want the things I like to be cool and viable, and I don’t want it to be at the cost of the units other people like (which is, again, why I don’t shout about getting rid of primaris or rolling units generally). There are absolutely some units that could and should be merged with no real negatives.

 

Intercessor variants as noted could be a weapon option bullet point like it is for veteran intercessors.

 

incursors and infiltrators could be bundled together as the Phobos strike team per kill team, give the unit the option to choose between the two bolter types, pay extra for paired blades and allow a specialist per 5 models. They would just be expensive if you took all the options, but importantly, all the bits to do that were in the same kit and doesn’t require additional purchases outside of maybe one of the specialist types. 
 

but yeah, we won’t agree, it’s fine, let’s move back to the topic of prediction of the next wave of primaris, rather than how to consolidate primaris and firstborn units when there’s no indication that is happening yet (or maybe ever)

 

 

[phandaal]

Just now, Blindhamster said:

But, I’m not trying to show you up or anything (in fact, I’ve made no remarks about individuals at all, unlike some others in this conversation).

 

That was not directed at you, or myself. That was referencing other comments I have seen here - should have been more clear on that.

 

4 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

but yeah, we won’t agree, it’s fine, let’s move back to the topic of prediction of the next wave of primaris, rather than how to consolidate primaris and firstborn units when there’s no indication that is happening yet (or maybe ever)

 

Main thing for me in all that talk is I would like to see more special/heavy weapon options for Intercessor squads. Let me give them one of those fancy desolator rockets we keep hearing about.

[Blindhamster]

I think, if intercessors get special and heavy weapon options, that’s the point where people will get their wish and tactical squads will go, but be able to proxy as intercessors without issue (who knows, they may keep the tactical name, but suspect not as intercessor is easier to trademark haha)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Next we will have Deathwatch players complaining this is their jam.

[Captain Idaho]

I think we can all get on board with a new giant Dreadnought. Nothing screams 40K like a giant Dreadnought.

 

 

[Bryan Blaire]

I just wish they would do a new jump pack style assault unit with CCW and those rescaled Terminators to be a thing and I’ll be set.  Anything they bring out beyond that is just extra stuff in the book making it thicker.  Bring on the Chapter specific kits.

 

I’m still not convinced that combining the entries into a single or like two basic “Tacticus” squad types or something would necessarily force anyone to lose anything, but I’m going to drop that particular discussion.  I get that everyone wants their stuff to be special - I argued both for and against throwing the “Big Four” into the Codex: Space Marines for a long time, but it seems to have worked out okay (still not entirely sure it was necessary, but it’s okay).

Edited December 28, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[Blindhamster]

Agree on both the above posts!

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

I'm actually really most excited for the prospect of perhaps a gravis lieutenant and gravis librarian or chaplain though haha

 

I would bet money on getting new Gravis characters in the not too distant future.

[Marshal Reinhard]

For what it's worth I feel like Primaris Crusader Squads kicked the door open for special weapons in primaris squad. Yes they're very...  adhoc and non-codex-compliant, and it's essentially just two, powerfists and pyreblaster but it's something? Technically you could argue heavy intercessors and eradicators did it first but eh.

 

58 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

I just wish they would do a new jump pack style assault unit with CCW and those rescaled Terminators to be a thing and I’ll be set.  Anything they bring out beyond that is just extra stuff in the book making it thicker.  Bring on the Chapter specific kits.

Primaris scouts........!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Im a simple man and will settle for Gravis terminators.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I'm quite looking forward to a new melee dread, especially if it gets a sword. Right now I play primarily Ironclads, but that has more to do with loving the chainfist that comes with that kit and not liking how the Redemptor degrades. But a nice melee dread in the new style would be awesome. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Never seen a dread with a sword mate.

[Blindhamster]

A sword wielding dread like some of the custodes ones would be cool

[Lemondish]

Not to swing the talk too far back towards a point we've moved on from...but on the subject of datasheet consolidation, I think we could all agree that the separate datasheets for the Gladiator and Stormspeeder are kinda unnecessary. A pity you can't mix and match armaments more freely. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Hopefully wargear becoming free means we are moving back to something more like army lists instead of the trainwreck that is datasheets. Merging the different flavors of copyright safe name units back into 'Tactical Squads', 'Heavy Tactical Squads', 'Assault Squads' at the same time as easing up on the 'only options that come in the box' we might finally be moving away from the MOBA design philosophy they've been operating under for years and but to something that actually feels like a wargame. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

One is a tank one is a skimmer… this thread is a train wreck.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

24 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

One is a tank one is a skimmer… this thread is a train wreck.

Pretty sure he means 3 datasheets for each is unnecessary, not that they should share data sheets