Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[Nephaston]

That could also be the Sergeants alleged options, an auxiliary castellan or Vengeance launcher

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

9 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I skipped a lot of pages but in response to the topic...no. In GWs history has any range really been completed to the point where they never changed, expanded, replaced stuff? If they every stopped innovating, even it if takes years, then they probably would have been out of business quite a while ago. 

 

So without going into some crazy off topic discussion the answer is no. The Primaris range will never be completed. There will always been some new one off HQ guy, a flashy new vehicle, an upgrade kit to existing stuff. And thats all before getting into chapter specific Primaris...maybe in 10+ years they will dial it back a bit but how many years has it been since Primaris came out? And they are still nowhere near done. 

 

I know the original post ran a little long, but this isn't the disagreement you think it is:

 

"Don't get me wrong - there will still be plenty of one-off vehicle and character drops, along with a plethora of chapter-specific models, but as far as the rank-and-file, the squads that form the actual framework around which the range is built, I think those will all be out before the end of 10th."

[Malakithe]

6 hours ago, Lord Nord said:

but as far as the rank-and-file, the squads that form the actual framework around which the range is built, I think those will all be out before the end of 10th."

Yeah thats a fair point. Unless they come up with more wild infantry units lol

[mel_danes]

Then they will need to sell even more Marines, but they've designed everything already, so we get Centurions shoe horned in.

The new line will continue this trend, I'm sure.

[Nephaston]

Let's also not forget that the humble tactical marine was redone what, every 6 years plus minus a couple, so a new basic tactical intercessor kit (as in; not assault or dev- I mean heavy ints) is a distinct possibility.

 

Maybe when they get around to redoing reivers they get brought into line with the other phobos stuff.

[Marshal Reinhard]

On 12/31/2022 at 4:40 AM, Malakithe said:

Yeah thats a fair point. Unless they come up with more wild infantry units lol

For what its worth, im not against wild outta left field infantry units. I was quite taken by the first reveal of the surpressor (animated still afaik, the model itself i had a bit of issues with). Even though classic units like terminators and jump assault infantry (primaris scouts!) tend to top want lists, I like the fact i could be suprised by something entirely new too

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

As much as the Centurions were a bit of a square peg in the round Astartes hole, I could actually see the Primaris range already having an equivalent fully designed as we speak and ready to roll out whenever GW feels there's some elbow room.

 

Although I think they'll be positioned as the big brothers of the Invictor Tactical Warsuits (piloted by a Primaris in Tacticus, rather than Phobos armor). And they may actually be restricted to one model per unit, but for the points they'll cost no one's going to want to run three in the same list anyway.

 

Sure, you might ask: What's the difference between this and a Dreadnought? To which I can only refer you back to the first rule of Warhammer: GW LOVES MONEY!

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

(Added this to the preview thread in the News and Rumors forum, but figured I would copy it here):

 

Valrak just read out the stats for the new Desolation Squad and Brutalis Dreadnought. I'll just recap the wargear options here:

 

Desolation Squad: Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, and choice of either Superfrag Rocket Launcher or Superkrak Rocket Launcher. They also have options for a Castellan Launcher and Vengeance Launcher, both of which are indirect fire, but I am pretty sure those are Sergeant-only options which can be decided per turn (as opposed to being locked into the Superfrag or Superkrak rocket launcher through the entire game).

 

Meanwhile, Valrak is dreaming of running around with ten of the indrect fire launchers in a squad. I wouldn't put ANY money on that myself.

 

Also, the main weapon being specifically a Rocket Launcher would explain why the statline wouldn't follow the Superfrag Missile and Superkrak Missile lines from the Hammerfall Bunker.

 

Anyway, as to the Brutalis Dreadnought, that is equipped by default with a Twin Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber, 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Auto Bolters (new?), and 2 Brutalis Fists

 

The 2 Heavy Bolters can be replaced with 2 Multi-Meltas (so they're probably chassis-mounted roughly where the Fragstorm Launchers or Storm Bolters are on the Redemptor).

 

Likewise, the 2 Twin Bolters (either his source mistyped "Auto Bolters" here or meant to type "Twin Bolters" instead of Auto Bolters originally) AND the 2 Brutalis Fists can be replaced by 2 Brutalis Talons. So those Fists have an Auto/Twin Bolter attached to them just like the Redemptor Fists have an underslung weapon and they BOTH apparently need to be swapped out simultaneously. So you can't run one Brutalis Fist and one Brutalis Talon.

 

The Brutalis Talon has a choice between "Strike" and "Sweep" attacks (both Melee).

 

No info as to points or power level.

[Orange Knight]

That Brutalis interests me a lot, but do we see it as a better option over the regular Redemptor?

 

The Redemptor is already fearsome in close combat and very flexible when it comes to shooting.

 

This new Dread seems to be giving up some of the quality shooting, so it will need to be faster or more durable? It seems like it would be better suited to Blood Angels or Space Wolves perhaps? Then again, it could be a real monster in assault so it's hard to guess.

 

The Primaris missile units will need to pack some punch before I consider them, or they'll have to be very cheap. I saw some profiles for the weapons and was throughly unimpressed.

 

I would look into them if the missiles were perhaps Heavy 2, Str 8, Ap-3, Damage 2 or 3?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If it’s T7 3+ Sv I’m not excited.

 

Super krak missile is AP1 supposedly… /facepalm

Edited January 3, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

@Lord Nord (or anyone else who has the info) can you share either what the stats are rumored to be for both the Desolation squad and the Brutalist dread, or a link to the video where Valrak discusses them? Many thanks. 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I think Valrak always takes down his livestreams (aside from preview watchalongs) as the YouTube algorithm probably penalizes those over the shorter and spicier videos.

 

I believe this video took its info from that video as I don't see any discrepancies. Only thing I would clarify is that the "Auto Bolt Rifles" which are mentioned on the slide for the Brutalis were clarified by Valrak as actually being a Twin Auto Bolt Rifle with the same profile as the weapon on the Invader ATV. So I guess the idea there is that since the Brutalis Fists have to both get swapped out for the Talons, there's no need for a new weapon profile or just giving each Fist an Auto Bolt Rifle.

 

Vid

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

Thank you kindly! That explains why I wasn’t able to find the video. 

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

That Brutalis interests me a lot, but do we see it as a better option over the regular Redemptor?

 

Tricky to tell. 2 Multimeltas is pretty decent anti-tank firepower. Unlike the Macroplasma cannon, they are not blast so this Dread can fire its big guns in melee if it needs to (and lives long enough). The addition of 2 profiles on the Talons could be good at dealing with hordes but hordes are not really strong in the meta and Marines have never really lacked for horde clearance. Space Wolves already get Dread melee weapons with 2 profiles in the form of the Great Axe but it is not massively exciting.

 

The Desolators seem kinda underwhelming at the moment. Missile Launchers are not a poular choice for Devastator squadsso I don't see why they would be picked as the first long-ranged fire-support infantry unit for Primaris. GW seems to persistently over-value the flexibility of the missile launcher. Having 2 mediocre profiles just means it isn't optimised for shooting at anything. Based on the rules we have seen rumoured so far, they will have to be significantly cheaper than Hellblasters to be viable. If they are more than about 25 ppm, I don't see a role for them.

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

Not going to lie, 2 multi-meltas on the Brutalis sounds very good. It’s possibly better firepower than the macro plasma on the Redemptor, even, with 4 guaranteed shots and higher damage at short range. The range is the only real downside but you’ll want to be getting close. 
 

Something seems off about the melee weapons, though—the talons are just plain better the way they’re described. It would never be worth taking 6 auto bolter shots to give up the reroll wounds and extra AP of the basic talon profile. 
 

Not really sure what to think of the Desolation squad at all. The total lack of AP is pretty concerning. 

[Djangomatic82]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 If they are more than about 25 ppm, I don't see a role for them.

 

I was just thinking that if they were 120 per unit, it would be a no go for me. Those missile stats are just so....blah.

I think the only thing i can see making them pique my interest was if they were less than an infiltrator squad and a Troops choice, then i could see them having some game.

 

Also, call back to an earlier prediction i made (that is still possible, mind you) but if GW gave these a Shoot Twice mechanic, would you play them then, if they were say <150ppm.

[Karhedron]

9 hours ago, Brother Captain Vakarian said:

Something seems off about the melee weapons, though—the talons are just plain better the way they’re described. It would never be worth taking 6 auto bolter shots to give up the reroll wounds and extra AP of the basic talon profile. 

 

Maybe the Fists have higher strength and/or more damage than the Talons. As it stands though I agree that the Talons sound better.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

20 hours ago, Brother Captain Vakarian said:

Not going to lie, 2 multi-meltas on the Brutalis sounds very good. It’s possibly better firepower than the macro plasma on the Redemptor, even, with 4 guaranteed shots and higher damage at short range. The range is the only real downside but you’ll want to be getting close. 
 

Something seems off about the melee weapons, though—the talons are just plain better the way they’re described. It would never be worth taking 6 auto bolter shots to give up the reroll wounds and extra AP of the basic talon profile. 
 

Not really sure what to think of the Desolation squad at all. The total lack of AP is pretty concerning. 

I’d say the talons on the furioso are clearly the best option for it.

wounding most things on 2 and what you don’t is wounded on a 3, plus an extra attack, and reroll on the wound…

 

so honestly it sounds like it’s basically the blood talons as described.

[Lord_Ikka]

Brutalis with meltas and talons should be a good weapon against anything heavy, up to and including Greater Daemons and Knights. 

 

Don't know about the missile squad- I've always been hit or miss on missiles in general, because the flexibility of frag or krak doesn't ever really come up (unless you are fighting a horde of IG or gretchen) and they're always the same points as better options. I can possibly see a use if the squad is similar to Suppressors in movement, as a fast-moving heavy support could be useful.

[Malakithe]

I doubt anyone will use a super niche unit like missile infantry when heavy support choices are at a premium and if they are worse then hellblasters

[Karhedron]

1 minute ago, Malakithe said:

I doubt anyone will use a super niche unit like missile infantry when heavy support choices are at a premium and if they are worse then hellblasters

 

My concern also. Looking at the rumoured stats, the problem is not that they are too niche. They are actually very flexible with anti-infantry, anti-tank and indirect fire all in a single unit. The problem is that none of the fire modes are particularly effective. Anti-infantry 5D6 S4 shots is about the same firepower as a 5-man ABR Intercessor squad with AGL. For anti-tank, 5 S8 Ap-2 D6 shots are OK but the AP is too anaemic to threat bigger targets and things like the Land Raider and Rogal Dorn will laugh at S8. The indirect fire is minimal, particularly if it is limited to the Sergeant (as per the current rumours).

 

Maybe they will be useful in very small games where the versatility will be good but in larger games, they are outperformed by more specialised squads. A Dev squad with 4 Grav Cannons will be more effective against almost all targets and they can fit in a drop pod if desired.

[Orange Knight]

I agree. The missile unit looks awful, imo.

 

The D3+3 damage is nice, but it needs better AP to have any sort of significance, especially against vehicles with a 2+ save. You'll be doing minimal to no damage a turn from a unit of 5.

 

The Dread looks weird to me. The Talon weapon doesn't follow the design ethos for other talons on Dreads - typically they have less strength and do less damage but have more attacks. As it stands it's a painfully obvious option over the fists with auto bolters. Why does the option even exist?

 

Lastly, I was going over the codex again, and some units REALLY need a new datasheet - the Repulsor Executioner in particular. The main laser turret needs to do flat damage of 10 or more per shot to be in line with what other recent books are delivering.

[Lord_Ikka]

8 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Maybe they will be useful in very small games where the versatility will be good but in larger games, they are outperformed by more specialised squads.

In Crusade, especially 50 PL or under games, I could see them being particularly useful. Generally you don't need massive anti-vehicle firepower, so your super-krak missiles are aimed at the elite heavy-infantry that the enemy will be using. If they are fast movers, then you have a mobile unit that can harass enemy melee heavy-hitters without the worry of them being charged and killed. Alternatively, if you are playing a known horde player, grabbing the frags will work well for helping then down the herd from afar. 

In Matched Play, I'm trying to find a situation in which I'd take them over either Eliminators or Eradicators (the two Primaris Heavy Support infantry units that they would compete against). I can't really see a situation where the Desolators outperform either- Eradicators are perfectly fine anti-tank hunters even with their shorter range, and Eliminators with bolt sniper rifles can fire anti-infantry rounds if needed (maybe not as much, but Eliminators BS 2+ makes up somewhat for less shots). SM aren't hurting for S4 shots, so the super-frag really has no purpose in Matched Play and even the super-krak is on the edge as far as usefulness goes. Maybe if they are insanely cheap you will see them spammed until a balance update, but right now I won't be looking at them included in many lists. 

 

The Brutalis though, that I definitely can see being useful. Even if it is just the same profile as a Redemptor, the leaks have it packing enough directed firepower and melee capability to really help out SM. Taking a Redemptor or two and a Brutalis instead of the standard 2x/3x Redemptors may become a standard option, giving some flexibility and a suitable distraction unit for the enemy to focus on. 

[Orange Knight]

Valrak has stated in a new vid that the super Krak missiles are AP-3.

 

That's quite spicy with D3+3 damage

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Valrak has stated in a new vid that the super Krak missiles are AP-3.

 

That's quite spicy with D3+3 damage

 

OK, that is a significant improvement and I might reconsider them in light of this.