Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 1/26/2023 at 9:16 AM, Marshal Reinhard said:

You serious?

Are you serious?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 1/26/2023 at 1:33 PM, phandaal said:

 

The fictional order of founding does not matter so much as the fact that they are one of the more well-known and popular chapters.

 

Hence - we could expect other well-known and popular chapters to get similar treatment, and most of those would be "First Founding."

There are a ton of well known chapters that aren’t first founding. Interesting a lot of them seem to be IF successors.

 

i agree that BT treatment seems to indicate other popular chapters will get some cool new stuff.

[phandaal]

A lot of this discussion is around ways that Primaris will get equivalent units to the "Firstborn" range, or at least units that fill a gap that could be covered by "Firstborn." i.e., the T-Shirt Gun squad provides long-range infantry-carried heavy weapons, so that is the Devastator niche taken care of.

 

Do we think the removal of distinction between Primaris and "Firstborn" will have an impact on what is released for the Primaris range?

 

To me, the new Brutalis indicates we will continue to get replacements for existing older kits even if the keywords are going away.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Geedub isn’t going to remove the distinction.

[Karhedron]

52 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Do we think the removal of distinction between Primaris and "Firstborn" will have an impact on what is released for the Primaris range?

 

To me, the new Brutalis indicates we will continue to get replacements for existing older kits even if the keywords are going away.

 

Not hugely. I think future releases are going to continue to follow the Primaris aesthetic, even if the keyword no longer exists. What I do think is it will open the way for more direct replacements of old FB units. Desolators look like a replacement for Devastators. This makes me think we are more likely to see things like jump pack melee squads and it does tie in with the new and enlarged Terminators that are being rumoured. After all, if there is no longer any distinction between Primaris and FB then it does not matter whether the Terminators are considered Primaris or not. They are just Terminators.

 

The Brutalis does look like a replacement/successor to the Ironclad (and possibly the BA Furioso/DC dreads to some extent). In some ways I think that GW have painted themselves into a corner with the way they handled the introduction of Primaris alongside older Marines. Removing the keyword distinction is an elegant solution that allows them to treat the Primaris line as just "Marines" going forward without having to actively squat the Firstborn range. They can simply leave them as legacy units in the codex and slowly retire the kits as demand dwindles. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Once the Terminators are released if the jump assault Primaris are pretty much an equivalent to vanguard Vets I don’t see much need for any FB units I can think of. I know a lot of people don’t like the look of the Desolators but if they function like Dark Reapers they will be a strong unit. I can see some still making use of relic dreadnaughts though. Also FB specialized units such as Thundercav and Wulfen will still see some play.

Edited January 29, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Karhedron]

Looking further ahead, I think that we may see some fleshing out of certain elements as we have a range of Tacticus, Phobos and Gravis units with distinct but overlapping roles.

 

Tacticus

Line Infantry: Intercessors

Melee: Assault Intercessors

Fire support: Desolators, Hellblasters

 

Gravis

Line Infantry: Heavy Intercessors

Melee: Aggressors

Fire support: Eradicators, Inceptors

 

Phobos

Line Infantry: Infiltrators, Incursors

Melee: Reivers

Fire support: Eliminators

 

Vehicles

Light and recon: ATVs, Stormspeeders

MBTs: Gladius

HBTs: Repulsors

 

Elites: Bladeguard, Dreads

 

Oddments: Invictor, Firestrike, Suppressors, Outriders

 

This suggests to me that the basic range is nearly complete and we are now seeing a filling in of the final elements. Once we get jump melee infantry and Neo-Terminators, I think the basic lineup will be complete. This will leave GW free to start looking at replacing some of the Chapter specific special units like Sanguinary Guard, Deathwing, Ravenwing and anythign with the word "Wolf" in the name. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Karhedron

[phandaal]

36 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Removing the keyword distinction is an elegant solution that allows them to treat the Primaris line as just "Marines" going forward without having to actively squat the Firstborn range. They can simply leave them as legacy units in the codex and slowly retire the kits as demand dwindles.

 

This is what I think is going to happen. Once it becomes a range refresh instead of a squatting, GW is free to upgrade or retire old units as needed.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Tacticus

Line Infantry: Intercessors

Melee: Assault Intercessors

[Nephaston]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

This will leave GW free to start looking at replacing some of the Chapter specific special units like Sanguinary Guard, Deathwing, Ravenwing and anythign with the word "Wolf" in the name. 

For Dark Angels there's already the rumour of some "Lions guard" for when a certain someone wakes up. Question is will they be akin to Bladeguard or Victrix Guard, or something a bit more unique.

[Lemondish]

On 1/29/2023 at 5:36 PM, Nephaston said:

For Dark Angels there's already the rumour of some "Lions guard" for when a certain someone wakes up. Question is will they be akin to Bladeguard or Victrix Guard, or something a bit more unique.

Hopefully more of a shooty veteran unit.

[Tacitus]

On 1/29/2023 at 2:36 PM, Nephaston said:

For Dark Angels there's already the rumour of some "Lions guard" for when a certain someone wakes up. Question is will they be akin to Bladeguard or Victrix Guard, or something a bit more unique.

They'll be Victrix Guard themed.  I'm waiting for the Victrix Guard to get the Heavy Bolt Pistols from the Bladeguard.  I expect Lion's Guard to be similar - In fact we should probably have some sort of a generic Primaris Bodyguard unit similar to Company Vets.

 

They're not going to remove the Firstborn/Primaris distinction.  I've heard they're even going to split them into separate codices, but I'm not sure how that works.  I suddenly have two armies instead of one?  Can they soup?  Will they both have the <CHAPTER> keyword of Ultramarines thus giving everyone their Doctrines anyway?  If they do anything to help us on that front, I see a lot of the artificial restrictions going anyway.  "I'm sorry Chapter Master Calgar, I cannot let you ride in the Land Raider because Brother Nicodemus of the Dark Angels won't let Grand Master Azrael ride in an Repulsor until he crosses the Rubicon Primaris." can't have that much life left. 

 

I think we need Jump Fight Units in Primaris, but we're more likely to get a Left Hand Dominant Lieutenant.  We need Gravis non-Captains (Chap, Libby, LT) we need Phobos Chaps, and some work on the Phobos Cap/LT.  The Cap can infiltrate but not Deepstrike, the LT can Deepstrike but not Infiltrate.  We need Bike Captains, Lieutenants and maybe Libbys for DA and WS.  Once we get the Jump fighters, we'll need Jump Caps, LT's and Chaps, probably Libbys for the BA

 

The Brutalis Dread was most likely a replacement for the Ironclad Dread on Paper, and the opening salvo to replace Bjorn and Furioso in reality.  The Desloators are the third side of the Devastator replacement - and hint very strongly Missle Launchers will be the FOTM for 10th.  Hellblasters - Plasma - 8th, Eradicators - Melta - 9th.  Desolators - Missile - 10th.   The Terminators in the other box don't look new - so I'm not sure the rumor we're getting new ones holds water.  I won't be surprised if we do, but I'm not betting the ranch.

[Sergeant Centurion]

My bet for new units for the future (long future): it will be a full gravs/volkite/storm bolter squads. A proper ship like the Storm Talon or Storm Raven but primarised.

Besides this, i think GW will start to redone some kits like Intercessors puting new guns and all the sergeants options on the sprue, for example and whislisting; portable onslaught gatlings cannons for Intercessors or plasma incinerator cannon for hellblasters. And make units like supressors and outriders multikits whit new options.

[ChargingSoll]

I keep on forgetting we brought back volkite to 40k. Would be interested how they would do a squad with them as their theme weapon. The pistol alone makes it interesting compared to plasma. 

 

I just want decent veterans to sprues up some squads. Maybe even a sergeant upgrade sprue.

[Guest Triszin]

Yes, I expect the og range to be at 90~% either upscaled or primaris by end of 10th.

 

 

I half expect grey knights to get "grail Marines"

[jaxom]

57 minutes ago, Triszin said:

I half expect grey knights to get "grail Marines"

I had a theory for a while that a revamped Chaos range would coincide with Heresy plastic kits because of CAD design overlap. I wonder if there's now a master file of "MkVI Astartes Proportions" which they can run a copy off of, change the helmet, add gubbins, and get re-scaled Grey Knights. At the very least there has to be a CAD file for Castellan Crowe they can de-gubbins to get Grey Knight line troops.

[Mike8404]

I don't see the Primaris keyword going away.  Scouts skip straight to Primaris now.  On top of that, Primaris are very distinct from First Born.  They're to FB what Primarchs are to Primaris.  GW isn't going to push Primaris entirely, just to take the keyword away and nerf them further.  Just my 2 cents

 

Slightly off topic, but as someone with both First Born and Primaris, I'll happily welcome the two ranges being split in two and put in their own games.  Mostly because that gives GW a chance to play around with Primaris more without the limitations they have between both ranges and let's First Born shine in a game designed to support them better.  I feel like FB limit the new Primaris range a lot because of overlap.  Predators and Gladiators are both MBT's, but there's 9 Predator variants in 30k and just 3 Gladiators.  I'd personally like to see more Gladiator variants, chapter specific Repulsors/Dreads/Speeders, ect.  Finish the update, but make the range feel unique to each chapter too

Edited February 8, 2023 by Mike8404
Autocorrect sucks

[DesuVult]

59 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

They're to FB what Primarchs are to Primaris. 

No.

[Mike8404]

11 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

No.

"No", do you have a specific reason no? 

[Captain Idaho]

I think the onus is on the claimant in this case, to explain why Primaris are like Primarchs in power gap between Firstborn.

 

But do so in a new topic please, that would be off topic here.

[DesuVult]

I have generally held to the ides that primaris weren't a firstborn replacement outright and that instead they were a way for GW to sell marine players a new army.  From interviews and statements by current and former employees I feel that is still true and the idea only reinforced.  As the primaris range has expanded I do feel I did make a noteworthy mistake.

 

Primaris aren't a way to sell one new army to marine players, it is a way to sell three new armies to marine players.  The separation of phobos, tacticus, and gravis, the overlap of roles and weird unit design choices I feel coincides with GW's preference for theme armies.  We know from streams that several of GW employees who are marine fans strongly prefer theme armies, armies with an emphasis on one armor type or even unit type.  Currently you can almost make a brigade of any armor type you want.  I think we will see that pushed further.

 

I don't think 10e will finish off primaris because if the rumors so far are true we aren't getting a new gravis troop unit.  There are 2 phobos and 2 tacticus troops, I expect eventually a second gravis troop choice.  I do expect a new primaris dedicated transport in 10e though and maybe some more gravis HQs.  I feel a lot of people are coming at things a bit wrong compared to how I see GW generally approaching design philosophy.  Instead of overall army roles I expect more to see armor variant army roles filled in some and I don't think primaris are nearly complete. 

 

We have reivers, bladeguard, and aggressors for primaris elite options.  One phobos, one tacticus, and one gravis.  Elites tend to be where a lot of marine stuff goes.  I would bet in 10e we get 2 more elite options of different variants.   BGV were very well received and the Lion is returning.  That makes me think something knightly.  I am going to take a big breath of hopium for what I say next, polearm marines for killing tyranid monsters.  Not actually that likely but I want to believe.

 

Elites are so far more melee oriented and FA more shooting oriented from primaris.  I think more reasonably releases next edition will rebalance that some overall but won't finish off the range.  GW can easily keep roles open into 11th edition with a set of gravis releases with a second gravis troop.  I would bet money though that we are going to see some BGV based kit in 10e though and something melee FA.  We have a gravis and tacticus FA option, both are shooting. 

 

Phobos melee FA feels like an easy guess.  If we are getting jump intercessors we could see the same jump design for jump phobos with some silly melee weapon.  The FA phobos is too big of a gap for me to believe will be left empty in the near future.  Once we get that you can make a brigade of any armor variant.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Mike8404 said:

"No", do you have a specific reason no? 

No.

Edited February 9, 2023 by DesuVult

[Mike8404]

40 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

I have generally held to the ides that primaris weren't a firstborn replacement outright and that instead they were a way for GW to sell marine players a new army.  From interviews and statements by current and former employees I feel that is still true and the idea only reinforced.  As the primaris range has expanded I do feel I did make a noteworthy mistake.

 

Primaris aren't a way to sell one new army to marine players, it is a way to sell three new armies to marine players.  The separation of phobos, tacticus, and gravis, the overlap of roles and weird unit design choices I feel coincides with GW's preference for theme armies.  We know from streams that several of GW employees who are marine fans strongly prefer theme armies, armies with an emphasis on one armor type or even unit type.  Currently you can almost make a brigade of any armor type you want.  I think we will see that pushed further.

 

I don't think 10e will finish off primaris because if the rumors so far are true we aren't getting a new gravis troop unit.  There are 2 phobos and 2 tacticus troops, I expect eventually a second gravis troop choice.  I do expect a new primaris dedicated transport in 10e though and maybe some more gravis HQs.  I feel a lot of people are coming at things a bit wrong compared to how I see GW generally approaching design philosophy.  Instead of overall army roles I expect more to see armor variant army roles filled in some and I don't think primaris are nearly complete. 

 

We have reivers, bladeguard, and aggressors for primaris elite options.  One phobos, one tacticus, and one gravis.  Elites tend to be where a lot of marine stuff goes.  I would bet in 10e we get 2 more elite options of different variants.   BGV were very well received and the Lion is returning.  That makes me think something knightly.  I am going to take a big breath of hopium for what I say next, polearm marines for killing tyranid monsters.  Not actually that likely but I want to believe.

 

Elites are so far more melee oriented and FA more shooting oriented from primaris.  I think more reasonably releases next edition will rebalance that some overall but won't finish off the range.  GW can easily keep roles open into 11th edition with a set of gravis releases with a second gravis troop.  I would bet money though that we are going to see some BGV based kit in 10e though and something melee FA.  We have a gravis and tacticus FA option, both are shooting. 

 

Phobos melee FA feels like an easy guess.  If we are getting jump intercessors we could see the same jump design for jump phobos with some silly melee weapon.  The FA phobos is too big of a gap for me to believe will be left empty in the near future.  Once we get that you can make a brigade of any armor variant.

 

 

 

No.

A new transport sounds cool.  It would be nice to get more Primaris tanks.  

 

42 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

I have generally held to the ides that primaris weren't a firstborn replacement outright and that instead they were a way for GW to sell marine players a new army.  From interviews and statements by current and former employees I feel that is still true and the idea only reinforced.  As the primaris range has expanded I do feel I did make a noteworthy mistake.

 

Primaris aren't a way to sell one new army to marine players, it is a way to sell three new armies to marine players.  The separation of phobos, tacticus, and gravis, the overlap of roles and weird unit design choices I feel coincides with GW's preference for theme armies.  We know from streams that several of GW employees who are marine fans strongly prefer theme armies, armies with an emphasis on one armor type or even unit type.  Currently you can almost make a brigade of any armor type you want.  I think we will see that pushed further.

 

I don't think 10e will finish off primaris because if the rumors so far are true we aren't getting a new gravis troop unit.  There are 2 phobos and 2 tacticus troops, I expect eventually a second gravis troop choice.  I do expect a new primaris dedicated transport in 10e though and maybe some more gravis HQs.  I feel a lot of people are coming at things a bit wrong compared to how I see GW generally approaching design philosophy.  Instead of overall army roles I expect more to see armor variant army roles filled in some and I don't think primaris are nearly complete. 

 

We have reivers, bladeguard, and aggressors for primaris elite options.  One phobos, one tacticus, and one gravis.  Elites tend to be where a lot of marine stuff goes.  I would bet in 10e we get 2 more elite options of different variants.   BGV were very well received and the Lion is returning.  That makes me think something knightly.  I am going to take a big breath of hopium for what I say next, polearm marines for killing tyranid monsters.  Not actually that likely but I want to believe.

 

Elites are so far more melee oriented and FA more shooting oriented from primaris.  I think more reasonably releases next edition will rebalance that some overall but won't finish off the range.  GW can easily keep roles open into 11th edition with a set of gravis releases with a second gravis troop.  I would bet money though that we are going to see some BGV based kit in 10e though and something melee FA.  We have a gravis and tacticus FA option, both are shooting. 

 

Phobos melee FA feels like an easy guess.  If we are getting jump intercessors we could see the same jump design for jump phobos with some silly melee weapon.  The FA phobos is too big of a gap for me to believe will be left empty in the near future.  Once we get that you can make a brigade of any armor variant.

 

 

 

No.

With that in mind, Primaris Company Champions could be a thing with a Dark Angels refresh 

[Captain Idaho]

Now don't shoot the messenger if this turns out to be false, but latest rumours:
 

Quote

 

10th Edition

>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade

 

SPACE MARINES

-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)

-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe) 

-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle) 

-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets) 

-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns) 

-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)

-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)

 

 

 

It does read as a little wishlisty and flies a little in the face of reactions to pending releases (the shoulder mounted Grav Cannons specifically) but I dunno, I'm inclined to believe it?

 

Mainly because I don't believe we'll get new Firstborn Terminators for 40K and this proves me right 

 

Anyway, I do think Grav is missing somewhat from the Primaris line. GW were going to make Grav the big 40K thing and kinda didn't after Centurions and Tactical/Devastator squads.

 

I'd like to see a larger Dreadnought version too.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Tacitus]

10th Edition

>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade

 

SPACE MARINES

-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)

There pretty much has to be some sort of Captain.  If its a new one, but not a totally new one, I'm not sure of why.

 

-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe) 

Company Champion? Lieutenant #452?  Something totally new like a Judiciar?

 

-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle) 

Primaris don't have scouts as far as I know- they have Phobos armor though.

 

-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets) 

Tacticus Jump Aggressors?  The name sounds a little too punchline to buy though. 

 

-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns) 

They already used Hellblast for the Melta.  And again - scouts.

 

-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)

This I sort of buy - but the Captain would have been loaded out similarly.

 

-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)

Already have an Instigator Carbine on the Eliminators, and ML Desolators are on the pre-preorder suggesting Missiles not Grav are the FOTM for 10th. 

 

I don't think the two Strike Forces on Pre-Preorder are going to be the Indomitus release, but I think they're going to hint at what will be. 

[phandaal]

On 2/9/2023 at 1:51 AM, Captain Idaho said:

Primaris Arduanters

 

This sounds like gibberish.