Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

21 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Its because I need a lot of neophytes i pine for a primaris scout kit. The big templar refresh was a dream come true in nearly every facet, save we were left with only two body poses for em. 

 

If there is not gonna be primaris scouts, I feel like they couldve just made the neophytes wear phobos. Would have no shortage of poses then.

 

Thats a fair point, and I have to admit that GW has no issues whatsoever with Primaris units overlapping. Its why I believe that firstborn are getting new terminators because they've avoided a terminator replacement so hard. I like Gravis but they're definitely a different style of unit.

 

11 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

They didn’t show anything for Indomnitus until a major event.

 

Yeah, probably a teaser at adepticon, and then more info around May/June. It's not like 10th edition is going to surprise people.

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

terminator replacement so hard. I like Gravis but they're definitely a different style of unit.

 

Its interesting to hear you say that.  To me it practically is a replacement.  The fluff is reversed, but I see little difference between an Aggressor and a Storm Bolter/Power First Terminator.  Likewise, the difference between an Assault Terminator and a Bladeguard Veteran are fairly minor. 

 

I think they tried to do something similar with Inceptors being the Primaris Bikes, and Outriders being the Primaris Jump Infantry but that failed.   Fly and Death From Above was too big a part of their identity. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@Tacitus - I think terminators are defined by being veterans, best armor, and the ability to deep strike. They made such a big deal about SW termies not deep striking in the 5th edition that it felt like a defining trait for our chapter.  

 

I view BGV as Primas company veterans cause they're just veterans in PA with fancy wargear. Aggressors actually felt like something new to me but their purpose did change when the lost the ability to fire twice if they didn't move. They feel like a counter attack unit now.

 

I will admit this is my subjective opinion but I feel like termies have been left a clear niche. 

 

 

[Tacitus]

54 minutes ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

@Tacitus - I think terminators are defined by being veterans, best armor, and the ability to deep strike. They made such a big deal about SW termies not deep striking in the 5th edition that it felt like a defining trait for our chapter.  

 

I view BGV as Primas company veterans cause they're just veterans in PA with fancy wargear. Aggressors actually felt like something new to me but their purpose did change when the lost the ability to fire twice if they didn't move. They feel like a counter attack unit now.

 

I will admit this is my subjective opinion but I feel like termies have been left a clear niche. 

 

 

I'm sure it varies from Chapter to Chapter - but I find 5 Aggressors and 5 BGV synergize better than 5 Shootinators and 5 Hammernators when they're running with Grandpappy Smurf - but I think they're competing for that same niche.   With 5 Aggs and 5 BGV I get 5 Stormshield bodyguards (Plus two more actual BODYGUARDs in the Victrix), I get 5 Power fists, similar shooting from the Aggs as the Shootinators, and I have the MC Powerswords instead of more Thunderhammers or skipping the TH/SS for 2LC so the retinue just has more variety.  Maybe it changes if  Deep Strike to Deep Combat becomes more viable.  With that said, we might be seeing actual Primaris Terminators soon.

[WrathOfTheLion]

With Dark Angels as my main army, it makes it quite easy to decide Gravis isn't a Terminator replacement. They're not Deathwing -> not Terminator armor.

 

BGV, although not Terminators either, I think fill a bit of the role TH/SS Terminators were doing. Not completely, but I definitely think they fit in with my Deathwing a lot better.

 

On a side note, on the Painting Phase channel (where Peachy is now), they were talking about how the Desolation Squad was actually already painted and being photographed two years ago, which is interesting as far as release schedule goes for these kits.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

18 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

On a side note, on the Painting Phase channel (where Peachy is now), they were talking about how the Desolation Squad was actually already painted and being photographed two years ago, which is interesting as far as release schedule goes for these kits.

 

Yeah, that's more or less in line with what happened when the Indomitus box was launching - the studio guy said the Primaris models had been painted up about eighteen months previous.

 

Not that it stopped some people from gushing about how those models were "clearly" a case of GW listening to the reaction people had to the Phobos wave... which wouldn't have happened for several months AFTER the final prototypes were painted up.

[WrathOfTheLion]

They usually do work in advance, although the implication here was that they were delayed even then due to their controversial design, we might call it. On a brighter note, it did sound like the studio was fairly aware of that, so I don't think a series of models in that vein are going to happen.

 

That said, to come back to the true root of the topic, I don't think the core range will be complete in 10th Edition. I also don't think they can constantly keep adding to the roster, but their pattern is to release something actually pretty core to the range, then pad it with some esoteric stuff. So I think we'll get a noticeable increase in coverage, but still be missing things. They'll need to leave something for the 11E launch eventually, or they'll need to pivot to resculpts/chapter-specific launches/another faction in the starter box. Once we see intercessors start getting alt sculpts in the launch box, then we're probably at the point the core range is saturated to where they want it.

[Tacitus]

On 2/14/2023 at 1:12 PM, WrathOfTheLion said:

With Dark Angels as my main army, it makes it quite easy to decide Gravis isn't a Terminator replacement. They're not Deathwing -> not Terminator armor.

 

BGV, although not Terminators either, I think fill a bit of the role TH/SS Terminators were doing. Not completely, but I definitely think they fit in with my Deathwing a lot better.

 

On a side note, on the Painting Phase channel (where Peachy is now), they were talking about how the Desolation Squad was actually already painted and being photographed two years ago, which is interesting as far as release schedule goes for these kits.

Not much of a surprise.  8th Edition, Plasma was the Flavor of the Month when it came to which of the "elements" (Flame, Melta, Grav, Plasma, Las, etc) were top dog.  8th Ed, Hellblasters dropped and Plasma was top dog.  9th edition, Eradicators dropped, melta was top dog.  10th edition we see Desolators - wanna take any bets on Missile Launchers being top dog? 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

On 2/16/2023 at 9:05 AM, Tacitus said:

Not much of a surprise.  8th Edition, Plasma was the Flavor of the Month when it came to which of the "elements" (Flame, Melta, Grav, Plasma, Las, etc) were top dog.  8th Ed, Hellblasters dropped and Plasma was top dog.  9th edition, Eradicators dropped, melta was top dog.  10th edition we see Desolators - wanna take any bets on Missile Launchers being top dog? 

 

GW always tends to overvalue MLs and really most options that have two separate modes. Since I've been playing, the strongest I can remember them being was in 5th edition, and that had more to do with Long Fangs. Not only did we get a fifth heavy, but we had a discount comparted to other fractions with ML, and could attach a termie with a cyclone launcher with a little effort.   

 

They have been pretty good for Eldar a few times, but Dark Reapers tend to have movement abilities, and they've always had a mode designed for getting rid of MEQs. Eldar also tend to have pretty horrible internal balance. 

 

I wouldn't mind MLs being good but, I'd really like for them to just improve the internal balance.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

MLs were strong in 3rd edition as well. I used to run a dev squad with four.

[Blindhamster]

I’ve always liked missile launchers, I just don’t know if I can work out how to make those ones good (visually) lol

[WrathOfTheLion]

The right answer might be to just take the ones from the 30k heavy weapons squad. They might be tolerable however without the belt feed.

 

With how the loadout is, there's few accurate modifications that don't still suffer from the 'gun glued on top of more guns with even more guns' issue that's more blatant here than normal.

[Blindhamster]

something like the underslung HH rocket launcher with aggressor style backpack launchers would probably do the job tbh, but at that point you obviously wouldn't use the actual desolation squad as a basis :D

[Tacitus]

I've seen people move the launcher to the backpack, leaving just the rotary barrel down below, and it's (Edit to add:) NOT bad. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Tacitus

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think they look fine and the stats for the weapons are excellent.

[WrathOfTheLion]

It doesn't mean too much, but in the latest White Dwarf, they're talking about a BA Strike Force. The units in there were like an Intercessor Squad, a Librarian, a Captain, a Sanguinary Priest and a Scout Squad (there was some other stuff too, not going to directly quote it). Thought it was interesting composition, and I think that we might see Scouts redone if they're name dropping them like that. Also interesting, and it may just be how they do prose, I don't think they ever referred to any of them (including Intercessors, etc.) as Primaris, it was a lot more natural than that. That may have just been writing style to make it more immersive, however.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can read it however you want. I would love to see Primaris scouts… Black Templar Neophytes are such good value for the points.

[WrathOfTheLion]

14 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

You can read it however you want. I would love to see Primaris scouts… Black Templar Neophytes are such good value for the points.

I thought it was interesting that they were bringing Scouts into the story. I do think we'll see Primaris scouts. It was questionable before, but once they released the Neophytes, I think that sealed the deal.

[phandaal]

On 2/21/2023 at 6:41 AM, WrathOfTheLion said:

I thought it was interesting that they were bringing Scouts into the story. I do think we'll see Primaris scouts. It was questionable before, but once they released the Neophytes, I think that sealed the deal.

 

Scouts are a definite gap right now. Original Primaris were made in Cawl's EZ Bake Oven, but for the rest we would assume they get recruited and trained just like any other Space Marine. Agree that Neophytes are a good template for what new Scouts will look like.

[Tacitus]

18 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Scouts are a definite gap right now. Original Primaris were made in Cawl's EZ Bake Oven, but for the rest we would assume they get recruited and trained just like any other Space Marine. Agree that Neophytes are a good template for what new Scouts will look like.

Scouts are a gap in both directions.  Maybe they have Primaris Scouts, maybe they just sit in a Matrix vat watching combat sims until they're fully developed.  On the tabletop Primaris has Stick Cap troops in the form of Infiltrators and Incursors.   Firstborn have.. Elite Scouts.  Its time to move Scouts back to the Troops role. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

nvm

Edited February 22, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Captain Idaho]

3 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Scouts are a definite gap right now. Original Primaris were made in Cawl's EZ Bake Oven, but for the rest we would assume they get recruited and trained just like any other Space Marine. Agree that Neophytes are a good template for what new Scouts will look like.

 

See, I know the background has Scouts as a gap, but Phobos essentially fill the roles of Scouts. If Scouts are 2 wound and 4+ Elites, we'll never see them on the table as Infiltrators and Incursors do the same job as a Troops.

 

If the Scouts are Troops, whichever is more cost effective gets chosen and the others die off.

 

Phobos models for Primaris make new Primaris 2 wound Scouts pretty limited.

[phandaal]

6 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

See, I know the background has Scouts as a gap, but Phobos essentially fill the roles of Scouts. If Scouts are 2 wound and 4+ Elites, we'll never see them on the table as Infiltrators and Incursors do the same job as a Troops.

 

If the Scouts are Troops, whichever is more cost effective gets chosen and the others die off.

 

Phobos models for Primaris make new Primaris 2 wound Scouts pretty limited.

 

Yeah, from a gameplay perspective Phobos units do eat Scouts' lunch. Just wait til we get Phobos bikers!

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

FWIW, Valrak the Verbose has just stated with a considerable degree of conviction that there will NOT be any Primaris Jump assault in the 10th Edition launch box.

 

So adjust your bets accordingly.

[DesuVult]

That is a rather hefty deviation from a lot of rumors.