Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[Guest Triszin]

51 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Desolators provide our long-ranged fire support so that is our Devastator-equivalents. We just need and Assault Squad equivalent and a Terminator equivalent (unless you feel Aggressors and BGVs fill that niche). If we get those in the 10th edition drop wave, I hope that the next wave will feature some Chapter-specific units for Wolves and Blood/Dark Angels.

I think ba and da well get love in 10th.

 

I don't see wolves getting it till the end of 10th.

[Mike8404]

22 minutes ago, Kallas said:

I do find it kind of ridiculous how people don't consider Aggressors to be Terminator equivalents, they do exactly the same job.

• Anti-infantry guns? Yup. Boltstorm/Fragstorm vs Storm Bolter.
• Big punch? Yup. Boltstorm Gauntlets vs Power Fists...which are functionally identical.
• Heavy armour? Yup. T5 vs Sv2+, which against a lot of stuff is roughly equivalent, the main difference is the lack of 5++.
• Relatively slow compared to the baseline? Yup. Both are Mv5", though Aggressors have Assault weapons so are more mobile overall.

Basically no Primaris unit is an exact fit for a Firstborn unit bar the Outriders, who are just Chainsword Bikers with a bonus rule to make them more Chainsword-y.

Aggressors are more like Primaris Centurions than they are like Primaris Terminators.  

 

Anti-infantry guns? Yep

Big punch? Yep both have power fists.  Centurions have heavy bolters vs Boltstorm Gauntlets.

Heavy Armor?  Yep.  Both are T5, Centurions do have a better save.

Slow?  Yep.

Deepstrike ability?  Nope.  Neither do.  Terminators do.

 

Aggressors are the closest to Primaris Terminators, but they're more like Centurions.  Maybe people don't consider Aggressors to be a Terminator equivalent because they aren't 

[Kallas]

Yeah, you could say they're between Terminators and Centurions. But that still ignores that Primaris units typically aren't direct 1:1 duplicates of Firstborn units.

 

Completing the Primaris line doesn't need to involve taking all of the Firstborn units and making them Primaris.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

37 minutes ago, Kallas said:

I do find it kind of ridiculous how people don't consider Aggressors to be Terminator equivalents, they do exactly the same job.

• Anti-infantry guns? Yup. Boltstorm/Fragstorm vs Storm Bolter.
• Big punch? Yup. Boltstorm Gauntlets vs Power Fists...which are functionally identical.
• Heavy armour? Yup. T5 vs Sv2+, which against a lot of stuff is roughly equivalent, the main difference is the lack of 5++.
• Relatively slow compared to the baseline? Yup. Both are Mv5", though Aggressors have Assault weapons so are more mobile overall.

Basically no Primaris unit is an exact fit for a Firstborn unit bar the Outriders, who are just Chainsword Bikers with a bonus rule to make them more Chainsword-y.

I want terminators with jump packs.

[Kallas]

8 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I want terminators with jump packs.

Oh, look, that one point you think makes some kind of important statement, when it really doesn't 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is a good point and shows why Gravis armor is not TEQ.

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

It is a good point and shows why Gravis armor is not TEQ.

It's irrelevant because they're not 1:1 comparisons, but they fulfill the same roles with very similar capabilities, both offensively and defensively.

 

Primaris units are designed differently enough to not quite step on Firstborn units (except Outriders), and GW originally stated that Primaris were not replacements for Firstborn - and yet you constantly hammer on about doing exactly that.

[Karhedron]

17 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Completing the Primaris line doesn't need to involve taking all of the Firstborn units and making them Primaris.

 

Very true but I feel it should involve covering all bases. Currently we don't have fast moving melee units (Outriders are limited to 3-per squad and no extra weapons so are too limited, they are more like skirmishers) so we need something that does the job of an Assault Squad. Maybe it will come in a different form.

 

We also don't really have something that works like Terminators in being a hammer unit that we can plonk down wherever we need to control the board. Aggressors are not as durable as Termies and BGVs are not as hard hitting. They are both decent units that have some aspects of Terminators but I would argue neither fill the same role currently.

[Kallas]

3 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

We also don't really have something that works like Terminators in being a hammer unit that we can plonk down wherever we need to control the board. Aggressors are not as durable as Termies and BGVs are not as hard hitting. They are both decent units that have some aspects of Terminators but I would argue neither fill the same role currently.

I guess the question I have is what part of the role Terminators perform do Primaris not do?

Is it specifically the Deep Strike on a relatively tough unit?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you want to just ignore Inceptors fine but they do exist and invalidate Aggressors being TEQ. Same can be said about Heavy Intercessors - TEQ units are not troops nor meant to be. I’m not the one presenting a strawman.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Kallas]

3 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

If you want to just ignore Inceptors fine but they do exist and invalidate Aggressors being TEQ.

It's not ignoring them, but their existence does not make Aggressors less of a TEQ. Primaris do things slightly differently - having jump packs does not make Aggressors suddenly do things differently, they still perform the same role as Terminators with a slight twist (ie, T5/3+ instead of T4/2+).

 

3 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Same can be said about Heavy Intercessors - TEQ units are not troops nor meant to be.

Except when they are, like they have previously been Troops for Deathwing? Sure that's a specific example and not a wider one, but that statement is not definitive. And as I keep saying: Primaris aren't 1:1 Firstborn equivalents. Aggressors fufill the same role as a relatively tough bruiser, which is functionally what Terminators do.

 

5 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I’m not the one presenting a strawman.

Neither am I. You keep saying there isn't a TEQ, and that Primaris need Terminators specifically; they don't need Terminators specifically, and Aggressors are an equivalent unit even if they're not an exact duplicate.

 

"a person or thing that is equal to or corresponds with another in value, amount, function, meaning, etc." - Aggressors perform the same function. They are equivalent. Much like how Intercessors and Tactical Squads are equivalent, even though they are not identical in loadout and stats.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

Terminators specifically; they don't need Terminators specifically, and Aggressors are an equivalent unit even if they're not an exact duplicate.

 

"a person or thing that is equal to or corresponds with another in value, amount, function, meaning, etc." - Aggressors perform the same function. They are equivalent. Much like how Intercessors and Tactical Squads are equivalent, even though they are not identical in loadout and stats.

I think it depends on what the function is, because Terminators fills a relatively broad range. One obvious difference is Deep Strike. Aggressors can't Deep Strike, so they will never be equivalent to Terminators for a person who regularly Deep Strikes their Terminators.

 

What about foot slogging or walking in from Strategic Reserve? Both units can do that, so here we can look at more details. Ignoring Deathwing and Wolf Guard, there're Tactical Terminators and Assault Terminators.

 

The basic Tactical Terminator has a Stormbolter and a Power Fist. Even with the range drop, it's simple to think of this as equivalent to a standard Boltstorm Gauntlet Aggressor. They get a good amount of anti-infantry shot per model, and have a Power Fist profile for melee. I think these are equivalent in function.

 

The basic Assault Terminator has either twin Lightning Claws or a Thunder Hammer and a Stormshield. Aggressors do not have an equivalent equipment set for either.

 

To summarize, I think Terminators and Aggressors are equivalent... unless you like to Deep Strike your Terminators... or, you use Assault Terminators.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What a stretch there… both in regards to Inceptors and Deathwing. Both are imprudent arguments to support your case. Blageguard perform the same function as a terminator yet they are not the same. It’s obvious that Gravis armor isn’t intended to fulfill the role of a terminator, especially seeing it fulfills several roles now. To me it is obvious that a TEQ unit would have an invulnerable save.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, Kallas said:

I guess the question I have is what part of the role Terminators perform do Primaris not do?

Is it specifically the Deep Strike on a relatively tough unit?

I think yes, for most people the issue with aggressors and bladeguard is they’re very slow, don’t really have good transport options and most importantly don’t have the option to be dropped where needed most.

 

I suspect if aggressors had deep strike, they’d be considerably more popular 

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

they are not the same

Ultimately, it comes down to this: you want exact replicas of Terminators, but Primarisified. If Primaris are truly meant to be supplementary to Firstborn, not a direct replacement as GW said and many naysayers claim is not happening (or was not going to happen), then Primaris don't need a direct, exact duplicate unit.

 

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

It’s obvious that Gravis armor isn’t intended to fulfill the role of a terminator, especially seeing it fulfills several roles now.

So they must only do one thing, or else it's not a Terminator equivalent? Does that mean that MkX units are not Tactical equivalents...because Phobos units (which, remember, are MkX) have them performing roles outside of the base? If Terminators got a new Firstborn unit with Multi-meltas, akin to Eradicators, would they suddenly not be Terminators? Terminators already have multirole functionality in Tactical and Assault versions, whereas Gravis has Tactical and Devastator versions (Aggressors and Eradicators, and kind of Inceptors).

 

Realistically, this is just you trying to find some weird justification to remove an iconic Firstborn unit and make it Primaris.

 

37 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I think yes, for most people the issue with aggressors and bladeguard is they’re very slow, don’t really have good transport options and most importantly don’t have the option to be dropped where needed most.

 

I suspect if aggressors had deep strike, they’d be considerably more popular 

Alright, I suppose the follow on question: if Aggressors did have Deep Strike, would there still be demand for Primaris Terminators, specifically?

[Blindhamster]

22 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Alright, I suppose the follow on question: if Aggressors did have Deep Strike, would there still be demand for Primaris Terminators, specifically?

I suspect functionally yes, because whilst its true gravis are tough, the 2+ save and 5++ tend to be "better".

When people think of terminators, they're meant to be super resilient, able to appear where you need them and have both good shooting and melee or have exceptional melee. If Bladeguard had deepstrike, I imagine I'd use those over Aggressors with deepstrike tbh. But anyway, based on above terminator equivalents should have:

• exceptional resilience in relation to other units in codex
• elite level stats
• either versatile and effective shooting and melee OR exceptional melee
• deepstrike capabilities

You're absolutely correct that Aggressors cover almost all the above, their resilience isn't quite there (give them a 2+ and no 5++ and you'd be laughing), and their lack of deepstrike hurts the concept a lot in relation to terminators. That said, Aggressors used to have the ability to move, run and shoot without penalties. I wish they'd give them that back, or some other interesting mobility niche that wasn't deepstrike would be cool.

For what its worth, I've never liked the design of indomitus terminator models, they've always felt off to me, in my 26 or so years in the hobby, I've bought 3 terminator squads (one was the classic 2nd ed ones, the others were a set of regular terminators after they originally came out and then finally a blood angels set when those came out), I had the remake of space hulk too.

I like tartaros, their design is preferable to me, I've never liked proportions of the indomitus ones, they're just weird (No Idaho, don't bother showing me the image of how they "could" would, albeit by cripling the marines back lol!).

If terminators got a redesign to have nicer proportions, I may well like them. I think the whole debate of primaris this and firstborn that is kinda tired now, especially as (supposedly) the keyword for primaris will be going, at which point, all that will matter is the quality of the models and the lore. If primaris marines can use terminator armour (don't see why not), then people with primaris only chapters will be happy and it won't hurt those who love firstborn in the process.

For me, the models would have to not suck, and I'm doubtful that would be the case (that said, I DID get the new Agastas box, and I'm unsure quite what I plan to do with the desolation squad, so chances are i'd succumb to hype and buy new terminators even if I didn't like them apparently).

[Marshal Reinhard]

38 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Realistically, this is just you trying to find some weird justification to remove an iconic Firstborn unit and make it Primaris.

Besides characters, what classic units have been removed so far with the introduction of any primaris units?

[DesuVult]

This conversation made me realize the marine range is missing a gravis jump character.

[Kallas]

5 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

When people think of terminators, they're meant to be super resilient, able to appear where you need them and have both good shooting and melee or have exceptional melee. If Bladeguard had deepstrike, I imagine I'd use those over Aggressors with deepstrike tbh. But anyway, based on above terminator equivalents should have:

• exceptional resilience in relation to other units in codex
• elite level stats
• either versatile and effective shooting and melee OR exceptional melee
• deepstrike capabilities

I do want to touch on these points:

• Resilience: Gravis does have increased resilience. T5 vs the T4 of Mk X Tacticus/Phobos, where Terminators have Sv2+/5++ over the Sv3+. Increased Toughness is not quite as universally effective as Save, but it is increased.
• Elite level stats: the only stat that Terminators increase that Gravis does not is +1 Ld, and this is down to Veteran status (as we see in Sternguard, Vanguard, Bladeguard and Veteran Intercessors) not the Terminator armour itself. Both Gravis and Terminator units gain +1 A if their unit is Veteran (eg, Terminators and Bladeguard), but Aggressors (who are not technically a Veteran-only outfit like the others) also get +1 A.
• Versatile or effective shooting and melee, or exceptional melee: Aggressors definitely are here, as they have effective shooting and melee (and Aggressors actually have Veteran level 3A like Bladeguard, despite not being Veterans). Other Gravis units like Eradicators also have exceptional shooting, but lack melee; and neither of them are considered to be Veteran units like Terminators. Bladeguard, although not Gravis, definitely have exceptional melee, even with a lower Strength of melee than Terminators/Aggressors.
• Deep Strike capabilities: this is the only thing that Gravis lacks in comparison to Terminators.

 

14 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I wish they'd give them that back, or some other interesting mobility niche that wasn't deepstrike would be cool.

Given that Primaris are supposedly meant to be additive with Firstborn, and not replacements, I personally feel that this would be better. The 8th Ed Advance+Shoot without penalty let them be, well, aggresive as their name suggests while not sacrificing firepower. The double shoot seems to have migrated to Eradicators, but they still have solid volume of fire so the extra mobility would definitely help them.

 

Also, as much as Transports are often maligned at this point of 9th, if they were made to be reasonably efficient choices, that would also help - even allowing Gravis to ride in Impulsors at a 2:1 (or maybe even a 3:1, if they made Impulsors make a little more sense: eg, open-topped = 10 capacity, closed top with gun/dome = 6 capacity) could open some options up.

 

18 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

If terminators got a redesign to have nicer proportions, I may well like them. I think the whole debate of primaris this and firstborn that is kinda tired now, especially as (supposedly) the keyword for primaris will be going, at which point, all that will matter is the quality of the models and the lore. If primaris marines can use terminator armour (don't see why not), then people with primaris only chapters will be happy and it won't hurt those who love firstborn in the process.

Agreed. I'd really like to see some action behind GW's original promise: give us some updated sculpts for Terminators - hell, some improved weaponry that is clearly classic Terminator armament (eg, an improved Cyclone Missile Launcher based on new missile tech) could be a good tie in. Power and Terminator Armour has always been malleable enough to accomodate larger or smaller bodies: Calgar was always described as a huge Marine, as was (I forget his name) one of Ventris' companions (I think, it's been a while) who was supposed to be huge, but still wore Power Armour. There's not much reason for Primaris to not be able to wear Terminator Armour - the only reason to make Primaris Termiggressornators would be to specifically push out older models to try and pressure/force the Primaris issue itself.

 

Some progress to back up that original claim that Primaris are not replacements and that the two lines can be merged, to a degree at least, would be great. Aesthetic preferences are very different on who one asks, so having options is better than not.

[Kallas]

19 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Besides characters, what classic units have been removed so far with the introduction of any primaris units?

You're right that it is currently almost exclusively characters. The most notable unit is the Honour Guard, who got canned when Calgar got Primaris'd and brought Victrix Honour Guard with him. There is also the Company Veterans on Bike, who never had specific models, which is their justification for removing them - and then reintroducing the Captain on Bike Datasheet (without an accompanying model), which makes that justification a very flimsy one.

 

More to the point, however, is that BBF and others have stated their desire to have Firstborn units removed, which is where the rebuttal mostly comes from. If they were to get their way, then Firstborn units would be removed, hence the statement you quoted.

 

Edit: To add to this: while GW reduced the number of Marine characters available, they canned a bunch of Firstborn Captains/Librarians/Chaplains...and then added a bunch of Primaris ones with as many variations as they had previously removed. So the issue clearly is not one of shelf space: they can afford to put a bunch of duplicate characters out there, they just specifically only want Primaris ones.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Kallas
Added info.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"Realistically, this is just you trying to find some weird justification to remove an iconic Firstborn unit and make it Primaris.

 

I never said to remove them. They could for instance be added to Relic Terminators. It’s not a big deal imo.

 

[Kallas]

6 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

It’s not a big deal imo.

Then let's not bother making Primaris Terminators, if it truly isn't that big of a deal 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s up to geedub really.

[WrathOfTheLion]

13 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

"Realistically, this is just you trying to find some weird justification to remove an iconic Firstborn unit and make it Primaris.

 

I never said to remove them. They could for instance be added to Relic Terminators. It’s not a big deal imo.

 

Or if the keyword is removed, and the new stuff is just basically an update and rescale, then the existing models can be used and it's effectively a model update.

 

That said, this is a discussion about possible kits, so I don't think personal preferences of what you want to be updated are relevant, just what might actually happen or not. In this case, some sort of update to Terminators is extremely likely.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If Primaris Terminators are introduced that would certainly help complete the range. If that’s nor relevant to the discussion I’m a bit surprised you’d suggest it.

 

As far as the keyword goes I’m willing to bet it won’t but that’s off topic imo .

Edited February 28, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY