Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

If Primaris Terminators are introduced that would certainly help complete the range.

Most Primaris releases have been distinct from at least other Primaris releases, with the most overlap being the various Troop units, which is kind of understandable.

 

Primaris Terminators would overlap with Aggressors quite a lot, unless there were unrecognisable as Terminators...at which point they wouldn't be Terminators. Point being, they wouldn't help complete the range, they'd be a mostly redundant unit.

 

Outrider Characters, Suppressor unit variations (akin to Hellblaster/Desolation) and Jump Melee units would complete the Primaris side of things far more than Primaris Terminators.

[Blindhamster]

7 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Most Primaris releases have been distinct from at least other Primaris releases, with the most overlap being the various Troop units, which is kind of understandable.

 

Primaris Terminators would overlap with Aggressors quite a lot, unless there were unrecognisable as Terminators...at which point they wouldn't be Terminators. Point being, they wouldn't help complete the range, they'd be a mostly redundant unit.

 

Outrider Characters, Suppressor unit variations (akin to Hellblaster/Desolation) and Jump Melee units would complete the Primaris side of things far more than Primaris Terminators.

 

This isn't necessarily true.

They could be a veteran unit with MC swords and some form of actual bolt weapon that isn't in a fist, along with teleporting and a heavy weapon option. Then you'd have a unit that nods back to the HH terminator squads, which would be fairly on-brand for primaris. (obviously assuming actual terminator armour stats of a 2+ and 5++).

 

They could also have lore that says firstborn and primaris are both found in the new terminator variant squad.

p.s. lets be totally honest, there ISN'T going to be a unit called "primaris terminators", and if there IS a squad that is terminators, its going to have terminator in the name, which means we're realistically looking at it being a unit that at the very least can be narratively stated as being either kind (assuming keyword goes, per valraks rumours, rather than BBFs)

 

edit

p.p.s. Aggressors absolutely do overlap with terminators in a similar way to how bladeguard do. The only really huge difference is the lack of deepstrike, hell in "Dark Imperium" Gravis is noted as being "equal to terminator armou" with actually more advanced systems. It was meant to be more mobile than terminator armour but the loss of the move, run shoot without penalties kinda removed credibility for that.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Blindhamster
countering BBFs point below

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I thinks there’s enough differences shown that Aggressors don’t fulfill the requirements.

[Mike8404]

1 hour ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Or if the keyword is removed, and the new stuff is just basically an update and rescale, then the existing models can be used and it's effectively a model update.

 

That said, this is a discussion about possible kits, so I don't think personal preferences of what you want to be updated are relevant, just what might actually happen or not. In this case, some sort of update to Terminators is extremely likely.

GW isn't going to bring in Primaris, which sell arguably better than First Born, have almost 10 years worth of lore, an entire range nearing completion, just to toss the keyword out.  Primaris don't 1-1 replace 40k Space Marines, but they aren't intended to.  They're meant to specialize like the 30k Marines do, which are also different than 40k Marines.

 

A Primaris TEQ is still lacking in the range.  The rumors about Primaris Terminators are that they're in a Gravis type heavy armor, but with a different name and a pattern difference.  That makes sense, because BGV are in Mk X armor, but a much heavier variety

Edited February 28, 2023 by Mike8404

[WrathOfTheLion]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

If Primaris Terminators are introduced that would certainly help complete the range. If that’s nor relevant to the discussion I’m a bit surprised you’d suggest it.

 

As far as the keyword goes I’m willing to bet it won’t but that’s off topic imo .

I more meant that as a courteous rebuttal to those that think we shouldn't consider that, not as a disagreement to you.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Okay thanks, that’s not how I read it so good to know .

[WrathOfTheLion]

No problem, I tried to be a little less direct with my opinion, but it didn't really work.

 

In my personal opinion, either of two things will happen. They'll either do new Primaris Terminators, or they will just update Terminators. I personally think the latter will happen, and they'll handwave what kind of marine is in it. You want them to be Primaris, and they are, that sort of deal. Either are possible though, and we don't know until the kit comes out.

 

There's too many datasheets and the primaris/firstborn distinction there is just too easy a way to consolidate down and remove just a ton of nonsense from the Codex, especially with characters. Been working with the World Eaters Codex, and it's astounding how much depth they can get with fewer rules, really proving that the vast majority of Codex: Space Marines rules are a waste of paper.

Edited February 28, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

 

This isn't necessarily true.

They could be a veteran unit with MC swords and some form of actual bolt weapon that isn't in a fist, along with teleporting and a heavy weapon option. Then you'd have a unit that nods back to the HH terminator squads, which would be fairly on-brand for primaris. (obviously assuming actual terminator armour stats of a 2+ and 5++).

 

They could also have lore that says firstborn and primaris are both found in the new terminator variant squad.

p.s. lets be totally honest, there ISN'T going to be a unit called "primaris terminators", and if there IS a squad that is terminators, its going to have terminator in the name, which means we're realistically looking at it being a unit that at the very least can be narratively stated as being either kind (assuming keyword goes, per valraks rumours, rather than BBFs)

 

edit

p.p.s. Aggressors absolutely do overlap with terminators in a similar way to how bladeguard do. The only really huge difference is the lack of deepstrike, hell in "Dark Imperium" Gravis is noted as being "equal to terminator armou" with actually more advanced systems. It was meant to be more mobile than terminator armour but the loss of the move, run shoot without penalties kinda removed credibility for that.

Quote

They could be a veteran unit with MC swords and some form of actual bolt weapon that isn't in a fist,

Those are Bladeguard Veterans. 

 

As for Deep Strike a lot of those alternate delivery methods are on the back burner I believe.  Transporting and Drop and Chop moves are exceptionally difficult - with any tools boosting those chances rare and even more rarely overlap/stack.

[Orange Knight]

What if a unit of ornate "Artificarer Gravis" Marines is released?

They have a Crux Terminatus on one shoulder, a 2+ save and invul, and can arrive via teleportation.

 

Is that a Terminator replacement?

[Captain Idaho]

Let's try and refocus the discussion back to what will likely come out for Primaris in the future. Whilst there is overlap in that discussion with Firstborn/Primaris equivalents, it's only a subject that touches it slightly.

 

So moving to something on topic here and the flavour of discussion here; what defining features do people consider a Primaris Terminator new unit or acceptable equivalent will have?

 

That's not to say there will or won't be Terminator Primaris, but broad enough to cover either and also have an equivalent that appeals to those who invested into Primaris.

[phandaal]

38 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

What if a unit of ornate "Artificarer Gravis" Marines is released?

They have a Crux Terminatus on one shoulder, a 2+ save and invul, and can arrive via teleportation.

 

Is that a Terminator replacement?

 

To save time, here is a link back to the last time this exact same conversation happened in this very thread. Now we can once again not and say we did.

 

https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/375130-predicting-primaris-again-will-the-generic-range-be-complete-in-10th-edition/?do=findComment&comment=5849212

[Tacitus]

Let's turn that around:  Is the difference between an Agressor and a Terminator larger or smaller than the difference between an Assault Marine (Or Vanguard Vet) and an Inceptor or Reiver?  Sure Primaris Terminators would be nice, but they've got bigger holes to fill - especially with an entire chapter built around that inconic role (Jump Fight Marines) - Anyone not able to see the Brutalis kit as the gateway to Bjorn and Furioso/Death Company Furioso?  Outriders into Ravenwing, White Scars, and Swiftclaws made it reasonable to release those for three+ chapters before Jump Assault Marines which are iconic for all but integral to the one. 

 

If we're talking the Generic Range, we're talking about the Main Codex (Non-supplement) units - especially the iconic "roles":

 

Tactical - Intercessors

Assault

Devastator - soon to be 3-4

 

Terminators - arguably Gravis/BGV but also arguably not

Characters - slow but steady

 

Assault have zip.  Even Reivers with both don't get the Fly 12" move. 

[Orange Knight]

20 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

To save time, here is a link back to the last time this exact same conversation happened in this very thread. Now we can once again not and say we did.

 

https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/375130-predicting-primaris-again-will-the-generic-range-be-complete-in-10th-edition/?do=findComment&comment=5849212

 

The reason why I ask that question again is because people can't decide exactly what constitutes a "Terminator" style unit.

 

On the tabletop Aggressors are pretty much Terminators, but not in the 40k lore.

 

However, in 30k they would indeed be considered as a new Terminator style unit. In 30k Terminators don't deep-strike, they don't have a crux Terminatus, the armour is not sacred, etc. They are extremely similar to 40k Aggressors. 

 

And yes, some HH Terminators can indeed teleprt in, but some Aggressors can too in 40k.

 

In my eyes Aggressors are a new variant of Horus Heresy style Terminators, made in a way that is easier to mass produce according to the current needs of the Imperium and their limitations. 

 

So, if a new Primaris Terminator was indeed made, it would have to be something different. Perhaps it will actually have the statline more similar to a Centurion. A super powerful suit, made in limited numbers for extreme missions.

[Mike8404]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The reason why I ask that question again is because people can't decide exactly what constitutes a "Terminator" style unit.

 

On the tabletop Aggressors are pretty much Terminators, but not in the 40k lore.

 

However, in 30k they would indeed be considered as a new Terminator style unit. In 30k Terminators don't deep-strike, they don't have a crux Terminatus, the armour is not sacred, etc. They are extremely similar to 40k Aggressors. 

 

And yes, some HH Terminators can indeed teleprt in, but some Aggressors can too in 40k.

 

In my eyes Aggressors are a new variant of Horus Heresy style Terminators, made in a way that is easier to mass produce according to the current needs of the Imperium and their limitations. 

 

So, if a new Primaris Terminator was indeed made, it would have to be something different. Perhaps it will actually have the statline more similar to a Centurion. A super powerful suit, made in limited numbers for extreme missions.

I do agree with this.  It fits the AoD 2.0 GW is shifting 40k towards and what the role of Primaris is.

 

So the question then is, what loadouts should an Aggressor style unit have to fit the versatility of HH era Terminators?  Will generic Marines get an Aggressor style Nullifactor unit or other specialist Gravis units like HH has?  Will armies like Dark Angels see a Primaris Gravis/BGV version of their special Terminator units?  Because they're obviously next in line for a refresh and Terminators/Veterans are just as important to them as Assault Marines are to Blood Angels.  Will there be different patterns of Gravis armor like how there's Cataphractii/Tartaros/Indomitus pattern?  The rumors around the Aduantors state they'll be in a different, more ornate, variant of Gravis armor.  

 

TL;DR

If Aggressors/Gravis is/are the Terminator  equivalent, then the biggest question is will Gravis and Aggressors get new loadouts and unit options like the rumored Aduantors say?  That's the question I think we all have here

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Mike8404

[Guest]

If Varlaks rumours are correct and we are getting new Terminator characters,  My 1st Company version of Agemman is raiding the armoury for Invictus's Plasma Blaster and Power Fist, rules be damned :D.

[Mr. Oddity]

Focusing solely on the load outs and sidestepping the are they/aren't they debate, a dedicated Gravis melee unit niche is still left open currently. Aggressors have their power fists, sure, but their gauntlets led to them being classified as fire support rather than close support. A melee-only loadout with increased hitting power at the expense of ranged contribution could be possible depending on how close to the Assault Terminator line GW want to walk.

[Tacitus]

16 hours ago, Mr. Oddity said:

Focusing solely on the load outs and sidestepping the are they/aren't they debate, a dedicated Gravis melee unit niche is still left open currently. Aggressors have their power fists, sure, but their gauntlets led to them being classified as fire support rather than close support. A melee-only loadout with increased hitting power at the expense of ranged contribution could be possible depending on how close to the Assault Terminator line GW want to walk.

The Irony is I like working BGV + Aggressors around either Papa or Grandpappy Smurf more than I like Terminators.  BGV + Aggressors gives you two tough units, one with Stormshields, Power Sword and Power Fist threatbands, with short range chaff shooting.   They cover just about all target levels between them - GEQ with Aggressor shooting, MEQ/TEQ with the Swords, Anti Tank with the Fists.  If you try and do that with two Terminators, you can't.   If you go 2LC, you're closer to the shooting (GEQ) than the Swords(MEQ), if you do TH/SS you lose the shooting/2LC (GEQ)

[Djangomatic82]

On 3/1/2023 at 5:36 AM, Tacitus said:

The Irony is I like working BGV + Aggressors around either Papa or Grandpappy Smurf more than I like Terminators.  BGV + Aggressors gives you two tough units, one with Stormshields, Power Sword and Power Fist threatbands, with short range chaff shooting.   They cover just about all target levels between them - GEQ with Aggressor shooting, MEQ/TEQ with the Swords, Anti Tank with the Fists.  If you try and do that with two Terminators, you can't.   If you go 2LC, you're closer to the shooting (GEQ) than the Swords(MEQ), if you do TH/SS you lose the shooting/2LC (GEQ)

Hmmm, I think, as they are stated now, a regular Tactical Terminator squad with Storm Bolters, Chain Fists and Cyclone Missile Launcher hits all the same target bands as the BGV/ Aggressors do. The Ap-4, S 2X, D2 of the Chainfists do alot of work.

[Captain Idaho]

On 3/1/2023 at 10:36 AM, Tacitus said:

The Irony is I like working BGV + Aggressors around either Papa or Grandpappy Smurf more than I like Terminators.  BGV + Aggressors gives you two tough units, one with Stormshields, Power Sword and Power Fist threatbands, with short range chaff shooting.   They cover just about all target levels between them - GEQ with Aggressor shooting, MEQ/TEQ with the Swords, Anti Tank with the Fists.  If you try and do that with two Terminators, you can't.   If you go 2LC, you're closer to the shooting (GEQ) than the Swords(MEQ), if you do TH/SS you lose the shooting/2LC (GEQ)

 

I'm not sure I follow you on this one?

 

A Terminator Assault squad with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields is more survivable than Bladeguard whilst being more offensive against hard targets (the Bladeguard being better at blending light infantry). They can also mix in a couple Lightning Claws if you wanted the flexibility. 

 

The Terminator squad has Storm Bolters and Power Fists, which operate slightly behind Aggressors in output but again are more survivable. They also can add Cylcones which increase the output massively.

[KnightofSigismund]

It’s the sweet new ”Rupturis” squad from the new rumor thread I’m waiting on  lol.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Terminator squad can also take chainfists.

[Tacitus]

8 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

I'm not sure I follow you on this one?

 

A Terminator Assault squad with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields is more survivable than Bladeguard whilst being more offensive against hard targets (the Bladeguard being better at blending light infantry). They can also mix in a couple Lightning Claws if you wanted the flexibility. 

 

The Terminator squad has Storm Bolters and Power Fists, which operate slightly behind Aggressors in output but again are more survivable. They also can add Cylcones which increase the output massively.

Because you need three squads of Terminators to get the two squads of Aggressors/BGV - You need 5 LC's to be on par with the BGV, you need 5 TH/SS for the Durability of BGV Look Out Sir protection, You need 5 Shootinators to get the Boltstorms.  The Mix-n-Match isn't there. 

[Tacitus]

8 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Terminator squad can also take chainfists.

Which doubles down on the TH/Power Fist area, not opening up the MC Power Sword area. You can't really get 5 LC, 5 PF/CF/TH, 5 Stormshields and 5 Stormbolters out of 10 Termiantors.  You'd need Stormbolter/Lightning Claw terminators. 

 

Roving Castle:  Guilliman, Tiggy, 5 Aggressors, 5 BGV, 1 Ancient, 1 Apothecary.

Roving Castle: Guilliman, Tiggy, 5 Shootinators, 5 Clawinators, 5 Hammernators, 1 Ancient, 1 Apothecary.  Increase your footprint and Points investment or you have to give something up.

[Captain Idaho]

I would argue that the Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield Terminators would overall be better at almost all targets and survivability than Bladeguard, compensating for the slightly less attacks.

 

And Assault Terminators can mix their weapons. They can have 3 Thunder Hammers and 2 Twin Lightning Claws.

 

The Terminator squad can be a Relic Terminator squad if you really want to be able to blend the opponent's horde.

 

I dunno, I just don't see the choices as completely at odds with each other. You're getting more attacks from Primaris, but more survivability from Terminators. And against heavier targets the Thunder Hammers will do better.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I would argue that the Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield Terminators would overall be better at almost all targets and survivability than Bladeguard, compensating for the slightly less attacks.

 

And Assault Terminators can mix their weapons. They can have 3 Thunder Hammers and 2 Twin Lightning Claws.

 

The Terminator squad can be a Relic Terminator squad if you really want to be able to blend the opponent's horde.

 

I dunno, I just don't see the choices as completely at odds with each other. You're getting more attacks from Primaris, but more survivability from Terminators. And against heavier targets the Thunder Hammers will do better.

Fewer and Less accurate.  

 

When TH is overkill - the MC Powerswords might not be - when they are, there's the boltstorm shooting. 

 

If you mix and match 3TH/SS and 2 2LC, you're giving up 2 SS and a powersword or so. 

 

You're welcome to go whichever direction you want, but 10 Primaris guys check more boxes than 10 Terminators - though you are right, you could do something weird wtih combibolters and lightning claw off hands - but they're not MC.