Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[Kallas]

7 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

TWICE. AS. BIG.

I mean, current Dreadnought Twin Lascannons are substantially bigger (maybe not quite twice the size, but much bigger) than Devastator Lascannons, yet they're the exact same profile. Size typically hasn't made much of a difference.

Spoiler

 

Like I said, if they are much bigger some buff could be reasonable.

[Marshal Reinhard]

You're talking some 20% difference vs. possibly 100% over that? (like for real, tell me I'm wrong if I am)

 

There's also taking into account the prescedent dreads of Redemptor and Brutalis. How much they cost. How large their models are. What size base they are. How much firepower they have despite being close combat or mixed closecombat units vs a pure ranged dread.

 

I have zero interest in engaging with your opinion of the lore, your normative leanings on what should be done with new vs old models or anything of the sort. 

Spoiler alert. We won't agree.

 

What we can discuss objectively is the fact that what looks to be pretty much the same armament at a glance: Two lascannons, a missile launcher(and some small side dish of bolter), as the classic mortis dread, but on a Redemptor sized chassis, is really out of place if they're the same two ordinary lascannons and missile system. The platform is twice as big, on a much bigger base, costs roughly twice as much. It'd be undergunned vs its brothers in the same weightclass if armed thusly.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[Kallas]

10 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

What we can discuss objectively is the fact that what looks to be pretty much the same armament at a glance: Two lascannons, a missile launcher(and some small side dish of bolter), as the classic mortis dread, but on a Redemptor sized chassis, is really out of place if they're the same two ordinary lascannons and missile system. The platform is twice as big, on a much bigger base, costs roughly twice as much. It'd be undergunned vs its brothers in the same weightclass if armed thusly.

Sure ok, so we should have a scale where bigger = better. We don't have that, and weapons that are physically larger aren't necessarily better - could be justified a number of ways (sturdier barrels for prolonged firing, or even increased range; larger power supplies for endurance).

[Marshal Reinhard]

1 minute ago, Kallas said:

Sure ok, so we should have a scale where bigger = better. We don't have that, and weapons that are physically larger aren't necessarily better - could be justified a number of ways (sturdier barrels for prolonged firing, or even increased range; larger power supplies for endurance).

Bigger and more expensive and to be consistent with the already released other two dreads of the same type. Sure sounds a basis to be better to me. Not sure how anyone could disagree, to be frank. You're really arguing this point in bad faith it would seem.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

37 minutes ago, Kallas said:

I mean, current Dreadnought Twin Lascannons are substantially bigger (maybe not quite twice the size, but much bigger) than Devastator Lascannons, yet they're the exact same profile. Size typically hasn't made much of a difference.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Like I said, if they are much bigger some buff could be reasonable.

and yet 8th and 9th has been the era of increasing weapon size and stats. like the super frag/krak or the imperial guard's heavy lascannons which these might be, or some equivalent of those.

[Kallas]

6 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Bigger and more expensive and to be consistent with the already released other two dreads of the same type. Sure sounds a basis to be better to me. Not sure how anyone could disagree, to be frank. You're really arguing this point in bad faith it would seem.

Bigger, sure ok, but there's no consistency to how much bigger makes something better.

More expensive is not really down to this weapon alone: the whole suite of weapons, plus resilience, plus other available competing options all contribute to how much it costs. If it cost 130pts for a Redemptor with Twin Lascannon (instead of whatever Twin BiggerLascannon stats this has) then is it still reasonable?

Consistent with the other Redemptor chassis sure, keeping scale in line with others of the same scale - still begs the question of where the scale increase justifies a change in performance, since there are plenty of weapons out of sync with the scale/performance line.

 

Will this Twin Lascannon be bigger and stronger? Yes. I have no doubt about that.

 

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

and yet 8th and 9th has been the era of increasing weapon size and stats. like the super frag/krak or the imperial guard's heavy lascannons which these might be, or some equivalent of those.

Yeah probably. Twin Heavy Lascannons is probably what they're going for I guess.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

What is the range even missing now? Melee Jump Troupes and some sort of hovering Drop Pod? 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

45 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Bigger, sure ok, but there's no consistency to how much bigger makes something better.

More expensive is not really down to this weapon alone: the whole suite of weapons, plus resilience, plus other available competing options all contribute to how much it costs. If it cost 130pts for a Redemptor with Twin Lascannon (instead of whatever Twin BiggerLascannon stats this has) then is it still reasonable?

Consistent with the other Redemptor chassis sure, keeping scale in line with others of the same scale - still begs the question of where the scale increase justifies a change in performance, since there are plenty of weapons out of sync with the scale/performance line.

 

Will this Twin Lascannon be bigger and stronger? Yes. I have no doubt about that.

 

Yeah probably. Twin Heavy Lascannons is probably what they're going for I guess.

I kinda hope the new missiles are roughly equal to the malleus rockets.

 

that S6 would be nice for helping deal with gravis units and other heavy infantry.

3 minutes ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

What is the range even missing now? Melee Jump Troupes and some sort of hovering Drop Pod? 

Gravis veterans, gravis LT, and basically all the other HQ options.

 

i wonder if gravis apothecary will be HQ or elite.

[Guest Triszin]

I'd guess the dread has the executioner Las cannon on it

 

 

Strangley, the one thing I'm looking forward to is the reivers lt

 

 

[Orange Knight]

So with 10th edition we have some interesting new units.

 

Terminator Captain

Terminator Librarian 

Terminators

 

These serve multiple purposes on top of looking awesome. They will update existing kits - rotating the old out of the range whilst also serving as new options for Primaris armies. Also I joked that they are a trojan horse that will put Primaris in the hands of people who may have refused them in the past.

 

New Phobos Lieutenant - Tyrannic War Veteran?

Primaris Veterans - could be a replacements for Sternguard?

Flamer Troops - Are these confirmed as a seperate squad?

Redemptor Mortis - This pretty much makes the box Dreads redundant. Between this, the Brutalis and generic Redemptor they cover all the traditional options and then some! I expect the weapons will be a Twin-Linked Heavy Lac Canon and some Super Krak missile launchers perhaps.

 

I think all we need now are the re-imagined Assault Marines and perhaps a variant that are customisable Veterans?

Edited March 25, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

The Flamer guys are definitely a separate squad - they carry the Fire Support icon as opposed to the Veteran markings on the others. Also, Valrak's source called the Flamer dudes "Incinerators" last week sometime, but I think he managed to forget about that in his most recent videos.

 

Pyreblasters (or whatever the generic name is) for the Incinerator Squad, combi or auto weapons for the Veterans, so they really do seem to be upjumped Sternguard. The Sergeant was running a different variant than the rest of the squad (melta vs. at least one plasma) while the "specialist" role opted for the Hellstorm Bolter.

 

As nice as the Vets in the box should be, the MPK should really have an expanded armory of goodies.

 

The MPK for the Dread will probably have several additional wargear options as well.

 

Scouts are supposedly on the way in the next Kill Team box after Gallowfall, so it really is pretty much down to the jumpy guys for Primaris. I personally would hope we see actual Close Support Gravis at some point (shaddap, Inceptors). But with Termies being a thing for Primaris armies now, I am not holding my breath.

 

And of course there's still a whole lot of room for characters in the various lines, of which we now have six: Tacticus, Phobos, Gravis, jump, bike, and Terminator.

[Tacitus]

I'm pretty sure the next Lieutenant model will be the Left Hand Dominant Lieutenant.  He'll have his melee weapon in his left hand. 

[Karhedron]

On 3/24/2023 at 10:25 PM, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

What is the range even missing now? Melee Jump Troupes and some sort of hovering Drop Pod? 

 

Those are the main omissions. There is some stuff I would like to see like the ability to take Outriders in squads of 3-6 and some extra wargear on the Serg. Arguably we have analogues for all the basic Marine infantry types now. We also have equivalents for the Predator, Land Raider and Razorback. We don't have a proper Rhino equiv either.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Also scouts, though you could argue phobos covers that. 

 

Both outriders and surpressors could do with a multipart kit, that gives them options and in the case of the latter, fixes their appareance somewhat.

Also, we could do with more specialists in gravis and/or possibly phobos armor.

 

Some kind of flyer, transport or otherwise, wouldn't be amiss either?

[Blindhamster]

theres already the rumour of new scouts from Valrak, I imagine they'll have the same blurb as the terminators and be noted as being either kind of marine.

 

They'll almost certainly perfectly match the primaris novitiates from the templars though

[Marshal Reinhard]

6 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

theres already the rumour of new scouts from Valrak, I imagine they'll have the same blurb as the terminators and be noted as being either kind of marine.

 

They'll almost certainly perfectly match the primaris novitiates from the templars though

Well, rumor is only as a kill team, though I suppose having a codex entry to use them in 40k is almost a given, wether or not an actual 40k kit is made or not.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[WrathOfTheLion]

If I remember right, Primaris still go through the scout phase, although scouts and recruits are now auxilary to the fully staffed 10th company. So it'd make sense for them to be updated.

 

Terranic War Veterans will probably be an Ultramarine kit this round.

 

As for the new terminator kits, they should replace existing ones and not add datasheets, which I think is a good thing.

[Blindhamster]

7 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

If I remember right, Primaris still go through the scout phase, although scouts and recruits are now auxilary to the fully staffed 10th company. So it'd make sense for them to be updated.

 

Terranic War Veterans will probably be an Ultramarine kit this round.

 

As for the new terminator kits, they should replace existing ones and not add datasheets, which I think is a good thing.

Post Baal, blood angels have as much "right" to tyrannic war vets, as do a bunch of other non ultramarine chapters.

I honestly doubt we'll see such a unit though.

 

Interesting thought about the 10th trailer, Blood Angels got a call out via Baal and the Banner displayed. If we follow the logic of the trailer hinting at things, it would suggest that perhaps blood angels are not so very far off (from the launch of 10th) for their refresh. Though being on the western front, means neither of the two predicted angels of death chapters really make a whole lot of sense, so we shall see.

 

And yeah, all marines go through the scout phase, it was only the original batch of primaris that didn't. Not entirely sure how scouts would pan out rules-wise, probably like worse (but cheaper) infiltrators I imagine.

 

I'm personally very much looking forward to seeing how the veterans that are coming turn out, and mildly interested in the lieutenant (if that's what he is) too. If the vets end up "just" being sternguard I'll be a little sad, as others suggested, hellblasters would probably be better in such a case (only reason sternguard are "better" right now is because they benefited so much from the dumb decision of free wargear), but if the new vets can take some melee punch alongside the combi weapons, they could be cool potentially. GW will miss the trick though as really the best way to make space marine vets would be to have chainsword, pistol and rifle, and allow each to be upgraded.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I suspect Blood Angels and Dark Angels will be the main leads in Imperium Nihilus, with Ultramarines and Space Wolves for Imperium Sanctus.

 

They may keep two event chains going there.

[Marshal Reinhard]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

Post Baal, blood angels have as much "right" to tyrannic war vets, as do a bunch of other non ultramarine chapters.

Honestly, any chapter that would have had a lengthy campaign vs a hive fleet should have a 'right' to get them. It's a little weird to limit it to ultramarines because of the first tyrannic war when we are now on the 4th one. The real world answer is perhaps that 40k era ultra marines are starving for special units, while Blood angels aren't.

 

Really though, nothing preventing anyone from modeling their own tyrannic war veterans, even if there's no particular rules.

[Blindhamster]

10 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Honestly, any chapter that would have had a lengthy campaign vs a hive fleet should have a 'right' to get them. It's a little weird to limit it to ultramarines because of the first tyrannic war when we are now on the 4th one. The real world answer is perhaps that 40k era ultra marines are starving for special units, while Blood angels aren't.

 

Really though, nothing preventing anyone from modeling their own tyrannic war veterans, even if there's no particular rules.

 

TBF, blood angels have to all intents and purposes lost two of theirs (baal predator isn't as good as the gladius, furioso isn't as good as the brutalis).
Honestly, I think we'll see more and more erosion of unique units going forward.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Honestly they should just do a tyrannic war veteran upgrade sprue for deathwatch and let that be that. Anyone and everyone invited to partake

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

I'm personally very much looking forward to seeing how the veterans that are coming turn out, and mildly interested in the lieutenant (if that's what he is) too.

 

Like I just (sadly) reported on the main page, that guy is definitely a Lieutenant. He has the skull-and-sunburst LT icon right on his chest.

 

(I don't feel bad about missing it before - I've never seen anyone mention it).

[Cryptshadow]

6 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

 

TBF, blood angels have to all intents and purposes lost two of theirs (baal predator isn't as good as the gladius, furioso isn't as good as the brutalis).
Honestly, I think we'll see more and more erosion of unique units going forward.

Tbf blood angels have a lot more unqiue kits than Um. The curse of being the poster boys means that apperantly you cant have any special units (primaris victirx guard when?!). Like what other unique units do UM have? 

 

And tyranic vets is a very unique thing to um not just because they are veterans of a nid war but a special force within the chapter dedicated for the most part to eradicating nids wherever they might be and they help spread information on fighting nids. No other chapter has anything dedicated even if they are techically nid vets. 

[Orange Knight]

After the next wave or two of Primaris, I would much prefer it if GW started focusing on Chapter specific units. And this doesn't have to simply apply to only those chapters that had them prior.

 

Obvious units:

 

BA Sanguinary Guard

BA Death Company

 

DA Deathwing Terminators 

DA Ravenwing Outriders 

 

SW Primaris on Thunderwolves

SW Terminators 

 

Characters that need to be updated:

 

Lysander 

Logan Grimnar

Pedro Cantor

Sicarius

Sammael 

 

And lastly, I would love a comprehensive vehicle and Infantry upgrade sprue for all of the main chapters, similar to what the BT got...

Edited March 26, 2023 by Orange Knight