Jump to content

The Forges of Mars: Mechanicum Tactia


Recommended Posts

  • 2 weeks later...

So how do we feel about Myrmidons? I'm really happy that we can now finally build a proper myrmidon cult list but I have to confess that I am slightly struggling with how to equip them. The Destructors seem pretty decent in general, what with their culverins dishing out good amounts of shots. Two irradiation engines and one darklight lance seem like a decent, if expensive build too. Same goes for the Secutors. The Maxim bolters strike me as very meh; I am very tempted to either go full Volkite or full Plasma. The latter in particular seems pretty killy but also expensive as hell.

What do my fellow Archimandrites think?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While the concept of a Myrmidon army sounds amazing, I'm put off by two things: Posability and kit options.

 

Every 3 Myrmidons you will be forced to repeat the same poses, which is much more noticeable on highly individualized models than on uniformed units like space marines.

 

Second, every kit comes with only one of every option. If you don't want to convert said options, you will have to purchase multiple kits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Secutors are one of your few decent melee options, so volkite or maxim are your best options there. Plasma is good for hunting MEQ and TEQ in a pinch. I would skip the volkite on destructors as you need volume of fire to make them work well and 40ppm for 5 shots is a lot. Instead you'll want imploders for hunting armor, or darkfire cannons and irradiation engines for fire support. You don't need many irradiation engines either. 1 or 2 is usually all you need. Keep 1 around in a unit for area denial or take a pair and go hunt MEQ.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I regularly used Myrmidon Destructors in HH 1.0, was catching up on reading the changes in HH 2.0 Liber Mechanicum.  I agree with the above and share my notes.

On 8/25/2022 at 7:56 PM, The Observer said:

So how do we feel about Myrmidons? I'm really happy that we can now finally build a proper myrmidon cult list but I have to confess that I am slightly struggling with how to equip them. The Destructors seem pretty decent in general, what with their culverins dishing out good amounts of shots. Two irradiation engines and one darklight lance seem like a decent, if expensive build too. Same goes for the Secutors. The Maxim bolters strike me as very meh; I am very tempted to either go full Volkite or full Plasma. The latter in particular seems pretty killy but also expensive as hell.

What do my fellow Archimandrites think?

 

:Elite::Elite::Elite: IMHO, you want Myrmidons sheerly for their guns :Elite::Elite::Elite:

 

I think you noticed the Myrmidon unit profiles, for their points cost, aren't the draw...you'd take them for the guns they bring.  Like when we were kids, he's the one from school you may not be closest friends with, but he owns that awesome game you really want to play, that's why you invite him to your house.  This obvious point matters when you judge their points cost, you want to look at the total picture.  Of those:

 

Irradiation Engines - the Marine-killer in the Marine meta of HH.  You know what it is: an AP3 Fleshbane Template weapon, but please be reminded it's a Torrent weapon, which means there's all sorts of positioning tricks that make it even better (my friend Timperial Guard, who uses Hellhound Tanks in 40k, showed me the full range of motions).  This is relevant because opponents will use a Sergeant with 2+ Artificer Armour to try to "tank" the hits, so you just have to know to move your unit to avoid him, finish him off in melee most likely IMHO, this is what you take Myrmidons for, and as Brother Brofist said, precisely because they're so good, you only take 2.

 

Conversion Beamers - you'll forget these even exist until you face an AV 15 Fortification in a 3,000+ point game.  Then you'll remember.

 

CAUTION: Graviton Imploders changed - these used to be AP 2 in HH 1.0, the Terminator-killer.  In HH 2.0, they've been nerfed to AP 3 (unless it's a typo).  With I guess they got Haywire on them now, they're more there to kill Vehicles than Terminators.

 

Brother Observer, you mused 2 Irradiation Engines + 1 Darklight Lance for a unit of Myrmidon Destructors, and I agree.  This might be the de facto loadout.  You've noticed I've talked mostly about Destructors with their guns and not Secutors, and it is because I didn't try Secutors in HH 1.0 as I associated Myrmidons' value with the guns they bring (my logic may be my bias and I may be wrong).  Again, I'd look at the total package, the Total Cost of Ownership of the Myrmidons + the guns you want as the real price.

The problem is the other hidden costs...

 

:Elite::Elite::Elite: Mechanicum Transports are like a hidden cost :Elite::Elite::Elite:

 

You know how Transports are, aside from a people mover, like a temporary shield for your guys?  It is especially true for Myrmidons.  Although they dish out damage with Tank-like weapons, they're Infantry and don't "tank" damage back like a Tank.  The biggest problem is Mechanicum doesn't have access to cheap Transports.  There were shenanigans we used like an Ultramarine Rhino taxi service (because they're Battle Brothers with everyone)...it was ridiculous, but a very effective way to move Irradiation Engines around.  Again, this figures into the Total Cost of Ownership issue, the expensive Mechanicum Transports are like a hidden additional cost.

Edit - to share what I did normally, I put a unit of Irradiation Engine Myrmidon Destructors in a "Macrocarid Explorator", the do-it-yourself Land Raider, no upgrades, for which I used a spare Land Raider as a count-as.  It'd carry the Myrmidons then act as a line-of-sight blocking brick for them, to do their Torrent shenanigans.  The total package was a bit pricey, and was worth it every game due to the sheer Marine-melting power of Irradiation Engines, but you see why I warn of this hidden cost.

 

:Elite::Elite::Elite: Despite saying I wanted to...I'm no longer sure I'll run a full Myrmidon army :Elite::Elite::Elite:

 

Now let's put this together.  In the past, probably here on B&C, I mentioned I'd look forward to a Rite of War or equivalent that let me run on Myrmidons.  Like a cat, as soon as I get what I want, I find that I no longer want it.  So here's the rules for the Myrmidax Rite of War:

Myrmidax

If only the Myrmidons could get Line Unit Sub-type natively.  Having a Thanatar as a critical dependency is a limitation, to the point that I'd run a standard Force Org Chart army, no Rites of War, just buy maybe 1 or 2 units of Myrmidons with 2 Irradiation Engines in some Transport somehow, play them as high kill-count units.

I'm still pondering about Mechanicum.  Currently, I see them as a good Allied Detachment I can bring for either a Loyalist or Traitor army for Irradiation Engines coupled with cheap Troops to sit on the home objective, i.e. Myrmidons are still a major draw for that purpose.  I want to see what the remaining Liberi bring 1st.

Edited by N1SB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/30/2022 at 9:40 PM, xxxjtmxxx said:

how do you make it with bypassing the sarge with is 2+?  

Edit - upon further discussion below, this post is incorrect as I misunderstood the change in HH 2.0, they didn't fix the issue at all.

In researching to answer this question for Irradiation Engines in HH 2.0, I just realised this shouldn't be a problem like it was in HH 1.0!

In HH 1.0, the problem was in Wounds Allocation being unit-based (as opposed to model-based), with the closest enemy model to the firing unit being removed 1st.  If the 2+ Sarge was the closest model in the enemy unit, after you apply the Torrent Template, no roll To Hit obvious, but then you roll To Wound, and cause a whole bunch of Wounds.  With the 2+ Sarge the closest, he has to be removed before the rest of the models in his unit, so he gets to use 2+ save for each Wound until he fails one, then the remaining Wounds can eat up the rest of his squad.  In essence, it's like the 2+ Sarge is blocking the Irradiation Engine with his Artificer Armour, like a mother hen.

In HH 2.0, it's not a problem with a fix in the rules under "Multiple Armour Saves".  The opponent "uses the Save of the model to which the Wound has been allocated".  The Wounds are model-based, not unit-based.  The 2+ Sarge can obviously still save on the Wound that he took being under the Irradiation Engine Torrent Template, but he can't "tank" the Wounds for the rest of his unit, each of his squadmates have to Save their own Wounds.

So that's no longer an issue, I'm really glad!  Whoever made changes to this rule knew what he was doing, I'm so amazed actually.

However, the lessons of Torrent placement still apply.  In short, what I used to think was it just gave extra range to a Template.  Like a Flamer, you plop the point end next to your guy, the fat end on the enemy squad, and I thought with Torrent you can just move it forward up to 12", but basically going straight, so I thought the Irradiation Engine had 20" reach (12" Torrent + the 8" long Template).  Instead, you can move the Template 12" and bend it basically 90 degrees, so if you're facing a gunline parallel to you 12" away, you can basically bend the Torrent to hit every single one of them.  Was just my misunderstanding when I started out with Myrmidons, never used a Torrent weapon before.  2 Irradiation Engines is enough for a squad probably.

Edited by N1SB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, N1SB said:

In researching to answer this question for Irradiation Engines in HH 2.0, I just realised this shouldn't be a problem like it was in HH 1.0!

In HH 1.0, the problem was in Wounds Allocation being unit-based (as opposed to model-based), with the closest enemy model to the firing unit being removed 1st.  If the 2+ Sarge was the closest model in the enemy unit, after you apply the Torrent Template, no roll To Hit obvious, but then you roll To Wound, and cause a whole bunch of Wounds.  With the 2+ Sarge the closest, he has to be removed before the rest of the models in his unit, so he gets to use 2+ save for each Wound until he fails one, then the remaining Wounds can eat up the rest of his squad.  In essence, it's like the 2+ Sarge is blocking the Irradiation Engine with his Artificer Armour, like a mother hen.

In HH 2.0, it's not a problem with a fix in the rules under "Multiple Armour Saves".  The opponent "uses the Save of the model to which the Wound has been allocated".  The Wounds are model-based, not unit-based.  The 2+ Sarge can obviously still save on the Wound that he took being under the Irradiation Engine Torrent Template, but he can't "tank" the Wounds for the rest of his unit, each of his squadmates have to Save their own Wounds.

So that's no longer an issue, I'm really glad!  Whoever made changes to this rule knew what he was doing, I'm so amazed actually.

However, the lessons of Torrent placement still apply.  In short, what I used to think was it just gave extra range to a Template.  Like a Flamer, you plop the point end next to your guy, the fat end on the enemy squad, and I thought with Torrent you can just move it forward up to 12", but basically going straight, so I thought the Irradiation Engine had 20" reach (12" Torrent + the 8" long Template).  Instead, you can move the Template 12" and bend it basically 90 degrees, so if you're facing a gunline parallel to you 12" away, you can basically bend the Torrent to hit every single one of them.  Was just my misunderstanding when I started out with Myrmidons, never used a Torrent weapon before.  2 Irradiation Engines is enough for a squad probably.

 

ok, but your opponent could also tank the wounds with the 2+ sarge until he Fell. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, N1SB said:

In researching to answer this question for Irradiation Engines in HH 2.0, I just realised this shouldn't be a problem like it was in HH 1.0!

In HH 1.0, the problem was in Wounds Allocation being unit-based (as opposed to model-based), with the closest enemy model to the firing unit being removed 1st.  If the 2+ Sarge was the closest model in the enemy unit, after you apply the Torrent Template, no roll To Hit obvious, but then you roll To Wound, and cause a whole bunch of Wounds.  With the 2+ Sarge the closest, he has to be removed before the rest of the models in his unit, so he gets to use 2+ save for each Wound until he fails one, then the remaining Wounds can eat up the rest of his squad.  In essence, it's like the 2+ Sarge is blocking the Irradiation Engine with his Artificer Armour, like a mother hen.

In HH 2.0, it's not a problem with a fix in the rules under "Multiple Armour Saves".  The opponent "uses the Save of the model to which the Wound has been allocated".  The Wounds are model-based, not unit-based.  The 2+ Sarge can obviously still save on the Wound that he took being under the Irradiation Engine Torrent Template, but he can't "tank" the Wounds for the rest of his unit, each of his squadmates have to Save their own Wounds.

So that's no longer an issue, I'm really glad!  Whoever made changes to this rule knew what he was doing, I'm so amazed actually.

However, the lessons of Torrent placement still apply.  In short, what I used to think was it just gave extra range to a Template.  Like a Flamer, you plop the point end next to your guy, the fat end on the enemy squad, and I thought with Torrent you can just move it forward up to 12", but basically going straight, so I thought the Irradiation Engine had 20" reach (12" Torrent + the 8" long Template).  Instead, you can move the Template 12" and bend it basically 90 degrees, so if you're facing a gunline parallel to you 12" away, you can basically bend the Torrent to hit every single one of them.  Was just my misunderstanding when I started out with Myrmidons, never used a Torrent weapon before.  2 Irradiation Engines is enough for a squad probably.

 

I am reading on page 170-172 and it works like your HH 1.0 example. It says under "Allocate Wounds" that you "select any one model in the unit that is within line of sight and range of the attacking unit". So as long as the 2+ save model meets that criteria it can Mother Hen the wounds.

Specifically it says your unit has to make saves against the wound pool generated by the opponent's unit. You allocate a wound to a model and take a save and repeat until the wound pool is empty or the model dies and you allocate to another model. Under the header "Multiple Armour Saves" it says you can use "the Save of the model to which the Wound has been allocated".

You don't allocate the pool all at once, you roll each save until there is a failure meaning the Sarge can still tank the hits. The template doesn't change that, only how you score the hits in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the clarification, that's disappointing.  I'll share my literal workaround in HH 1.0 in case it still applies.  It's a bit gamey and likely requires a Vehicle.  There were 3 ways to avoid the 2+ Sarge.

1st, as I understood it, my opponent's 2+ Sarge tanked the hits because he was the closest model, so he took Wounds for his unit because you remove the closest models 1st.  So once I got a Vehicle, I just maneuvered into a position where he wasn't the closest model when possible.  Usually wasn't an issue, just a bit pedantic.

2nd...and this is even more pedantic, really quite gamey...is "Rhino Scoping".  The term comes from 40k Marine armies when you want to single-out just a specific enemy model in an unit, like say, the Heavy Weapons guy in a 40k Tactical Squad.  What you do is you position something...like your Rhinos...that can block your own unit's Line of Sight so you can see only that Heavy Weapons guy.  When you fire, you're technically firing upon the whole enemy squad, but only the Heavy Weapons guy is the valid target, and he eats all the Wounds.  Now we kinda invert that scenario.

Using Rhino Scoping, you position a Vehicle (probably the one that transported the Myrmidons) so that you block your own Line of Sight to that 2+ Sarge (and you will probably block LoS to the other Marines closest to him unfortunately) to hit everyone EXCEPT him, thus he's not allowed to use his Save.  Torrent Weapons let you place the tear drop Template with more freedom, but it still follows the normal Template rules, like it only hurts people in the firer's LoS.  By blocking your own LoS to that 2+ Sarge, he is no longer a valid target, even if the Template passes over him.

(What is technically not allowed under Rules As Written was positioning your Template under Torrent rules to avoid hitting a specific model.  You're still supposed to cover the maximum number of models possible in an enemy unit, so you can't "stop short" of the 2+ Sarge at the expense of not flaming everyone.  However, Rhino Scoping simply removes him from the equation, you protect that 2+ Sarge from yourself in order to nuke everyone else.)

This was a literal workaround because I was moving around the 2+ Sarge or shooting around him with Rhino Scoping.  Not proud of it, not sure if the solution applies in HH 2.0, and this didn't always come up, but it was how I got around the issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhino sniping was a thing in 4th, the last time wound allocation had player choice but was limited by visibility. It's super gamey, but so are the character wound allocation rules so they basically cancel each other out. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a world with the new WS chart, and only 6+ FNP, they really suffer. Especially when combined with their loss of power fists and the prism rule on their chest lasers. Claw spam is viable, but you need volume to get through elites or TEQ, so you need a big unit. Against MEQ you have better options. You don't even have any good way to attach ICs to to them.

Mech have been railroaded to no longer be very good at melee, so if you're looking at a dedicated mech melee unit, you're bound to be disappointed.

Edited by Brofist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Just a note with the new Legacies of the Age of Darkness: Mechanicum PDF file from Warhammer Community, the most noteworthy thing imho is the Termite Assault Drill being available to Mechanicum.  At 80 points, I think it's the cheapest transport they can get, great to get your Myrmidon Destructors into range.  Edit - thanks to Brother Anvilarium for correcting me!  I can't believe it, they made it so the Termite canNOT transport Myrmidons.

Edited by N1SB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/22/2022 at 8:37 AM, N1SB said:

Just a note with the new Legacies of the Age of Darkness: Mechanicum PDF file from Warhammer Community, the most noteworthy thing imho is the Termite Assault Drill being available to Mechanicum.  At 80 points, I think it's the cheapest transport they can get, great to get your Myrmidon Destructors into range.

Such good news!

Now, if they would fix the various Knight issues (missing Dominus, Household missing Mechanicum mini-Knights, Armiger rule not well thought out...)

Edited by TheNineteenth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Anvilarium said:

Unfortunately Myrmidon Destructors are Bulky(3), and Termites cannot transport units with the Bulky rule.

Thank you for correcting my mistake, Brother.  I can't believe they have a special rule just for this (actually shows forethought on their part).

Cogsdammit.  On the other hand, they did make Land Raiders available to us now.  That wasn't in the HH 1.0 Taghmata Book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.