Your marine hot take/controversial opinion?

[Blindhamster]

Then yeah, seems fine to me :D

[WrathOfTheLion]

Here's another one I've been thinking about, the new 30k kits have been way more focused and the Primaris kits are scatterbrained (I do like most of the Primaris kits, btw).

Things like the attention to detail on sprue construction, weapon options, etc. just seem way better, and not much of it particularly is due to modelling advances. Like a coordinated effort to release that range instead of a random spread of kits.

I hope future kit design is positively affected because of this.

Edited August 27, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

51 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Here's another one I've been thinking about, the new 30k kits have been way more focused and the Primaris kits are scatterbrained (I do like most of the Primaris kits, btw).

Things like the attention to detail on sprue construction, weapon options, etc. just seem way better, and not much of it particularly is due to modelling advances. Like a coordinated effort to release that range instead of a random spread of kits.

I hope future kit design is positively affected because of this.

Not really sure what you mean by scatterbrained vs focuses

[WrathOfTheLion]

The kits don't build on each other to get strong coverage.

For example, intercessors and hellblasters being fully separate instead of being smarter about design and making them share to cover more ground, on top of that adding more special/heavy weapons to tacticus armor.

The vehicle kits are more sensibly designed, however, like the impulsor/gladiator was pretty good on that.

Edited August 27, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Here's another one I've been thinking about, the new 30k kits have been way more focused and the Primaris kits are scatterbrained (I do like most of the Primaris kits, btw).

Things like the attention to detail on sprue construction, weapon options, etc. just seem way better, and not much of it particularly is due to modelling advances. Like a coordinated effort to release that range instead of a random spread of kits.

I hope future kit design is positively affected because of this.

can you elaborate? Nothing seemed better put together for the mk6 kit vs regular intercessors IMO.

[Blindhamster]

4 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

The kits don't build on each other to get strong coverage.

For example, intercessors and hellblasters being fully separate instead of being smarter about design and making them share to cover more ground.

The vehicle kits are more sensibly designed, however, like the impulsor/gladiator was pretty good on that.

oh, nah, I think its a good thing hellblasters and intercessors have different kits, it meant:

• they could have subtly different armour designs
• they could get different poses

so instead of 5 poses across 2 different squads, we get 10 poses across the squads.
I suppose they could have done a 10 man squad with totally unique poses and then hellblasters as an upgrade. But honestly I don't think that would have been good either, it would have made hellblasters even more expensive...

so yeah, respectfully disagree that the mk6 approach is necessarily better. But its an interesting alternative. I /would/ like to see some generic upgrades appear though (I do assume that the reason for the approach for HH is that the weapon kits will be compatible with the other mks as they get released)

Edited August 27, 2022 by Blindhamster

[WrathOfTheLion]

No, I get that, but it'd be nice if say, the plasma bits were on a separate sprue from the body bit, so they could make say a Volkite Hellblaster squad without having to invest heavily into a whole new set of sculpts, which they just aren't going to do for every option.

That doesn't mean they won't do this in the future though, that's just how the kits have been so far.

Just like how new sculpts are going back to the old style flight stands, removing the weird curved ones, we could see a noticeable shift in kit design philosophy going forward if this was a successful model.

Anyways, that's just a hot take on the matter. A more calculated way to get massive coverage vs more organic growth I guess.

Edited August 27, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[phandaal]

10 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Anyways, that's just a hot take on the matter.

Nice to see an actual hot take. Feels like some people are forgetting that hot takes are not supposed to be something everyone else agrees with! 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

11 hours ago, phandaal said:

Nice to see an actual hot take. Feels like some people are forgetting that hot takes are not supposed to be something everyone else agrees with! 

I don't know about that...

[WARMASTER_]

On 8/27/2022 at 3:17 AM, Blindhamster said:

can you elaborate? Nothing seemed better put together for the mk6 kit vs regular intercessors IMO.

So I have to agree with @WrathOfTheLion on this one! While I really like the proportions + Aesthetics of the Primaris range it has never really felt like a homogeneous range in very annoying ways that could have been easily avoided and better thought through… 

some examples… 

Bladeguard arms are needlessly the Gravis shoulder fittings so swords + pistols can’t be used on intersessor kits for sergeants without having extra large shoulder pads on just the sergeants or Vice Versa Assault intercessor pistols can’t be used because the shoulder pads are to small [Sword Brethren have normal shoulder fittings proving it was needless because they still have the gravis size pads] 

The “Extra bits” never really mix and match as well either, you don’t know how long I’ve been looking for a right handed plasma pistol in a shooting pose [only for it to come out with the very limited Sergeant Castus] or a right handed sword to go with the mostly land handed plasma pistols this was never an issue in the old range, and I think it’s because of all the extra weapons types they’ve introduced narrowing kit cross over 

i think what’s @WrathOfTheLion saying which I completely agree with is Primaris kits seem to be completed as singular kits in mind rather than as a whole range and if there’s some cross over between kits possible is more luck of the draw where as the older marine range and the new HH stuff are completely homogenous! Mixing and matching kits was a dream and still is with those kits 

it’s not down to advancements in models either I’m completely down for the legs+torso design but some thought given to customisation between kits would have been nice with Primaris 

 

 

[Orange Knight]

I feel that the next codex will introduce a lot of limitations to old kits, if it doesn't outright remove them.

Look at what happened in the Chaos book. The Terminators can only take the upgrades that come in the box, so you can't even run a squad that takes identical combi and power weapons on every model.

I wouldn't be surprised if, after the next codex, units like Vanguard are limited in their weapon selection, eg: 2 hammer per 5. I think GW wants the units to function without the need to combine bits from different kits.

[Captain Idaho]

Unfortunately I think you are correct. GW has a strange sales policy lately of avoiding encouraging of kitbashing. Newbie friendly, hobbyist hostile it feels almost.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

Unfortunately I think you are correct. GW has a strange sales policy lately of avoiding encouraging of kitbashing. Newbie friendly, hobbyist hostile it feels almost.

I made a post about this in the general PCA sub 

[UnkyHamHam]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I feel that the next codex will introduce a lot of limitations to old kits, if it doesn't outright remove them.

Look at what happened in the Chaos book. The Terminators can only take the upgrades that come in the box, so you can't even run a squad that takes identical combi and power weapons on every model.

I wouldn't be surprised if, after the next codex, units like Vanguard are limited in their weapon selection, eg: 2 hammer per 5. I think GW wants the units to function without the need to combine bits from different kits.

I will look forward to Tacticals with 1 each of the 4 special weapons and a ML haha.

I won't look forward to capping heavy weapons to 2 of any one kind on Devs. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by UnkyHamHam

[Blindhamster]

43 minutes ago, UnkyHamHam said:

I will look forward to Tacticals with 1 each of the 4 special weapons and a ML haha.

I won't look forward to capping heavy weapons to 2 of any one kind on Devs. 

The former won’t happen, they still provide options, just you only get the options available in the kit(s)

the latter though, yeah that’s exactly what I’d expect, but not sure they’ll follow through on such a thing

 

[UnkyHamHam]

59 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

The former won’t happen, they still provide options, just you only get the options available in the kit(s)

the latter though, yeah that’s exactly what I’d expect, but not sure they’ll follow through on such a thing

 

Unfortunately, I agree and expect that. Was just searching for a silver lining. 

Gonna be extremely lame if Sternguard are limited to 2x of each Combi per 5 guys. It's like their one thing at this point. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

They're getting a lot of negative responses from that, but yeah, that's their current direction. What they did to the Chaos datasheets has been pretty universally disliked.

It's a bizarre direction, because they have a policy like that, and then double down on it by releasing new kits that just don't have the right amount of options and then come in afterwards with a cull on options. That they do that in some cases multiple years after the kit dropped, like with Chaos Terminators, just makes folks mad.

I too expect they'll keep doing this, although I'd be interested to see if it has had a negative impact on sales.

[Djangomatic82]

I'll throw my hot take in here.

All vehicle should have atleast 3x the amount of wounds they do now and scrap the degradation chart or leave it as it is now.

Fortifications should be 4x-5x the wounds.

All anti armour weapons should be doing 3x-5x the damage ,but be only single shots.

Let anti infantry weapons stay single damage and have almost zero chance of doing enough damage to threaten vehicles and fortifications in less than three turns of shooting at it with multiple large infantry units.

 

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Djangomatic82 said:

I'll throw my hot take in here.

All vehicle should have atleast 3x the amount of wounds they do now and scrap the degradation chart or leave it as it is now.

Fortifications should be 4x-5x the wounds.

All anti armour weapons should be doing 3x-5x the damage ,but be only single shots.

Let anti infantry weapons stay single damage and have almost zero chance of doing enough damage to threaten vehicles and fortifications in less than three turns of shooting at it with multiple large infantry units.

 

 

 

If you multiply vehicle wounds by 3, and then multiply AT damage by 5 vehicles become even less durable.

[Cpt_Reaper]

The second that real, actual Primaris terminators are released, every Firstborn unit needs to be sent to the proverbial shelf of Legends (which in itself shouldn't exist...it's the ask permission to use Forge World situation again). And I do mean every firstborn unit. Tactical, Assault, Devastator, Rhino, Predator, Land Raider...the lot. Just rip that band-aid off...it's already been on for too long.

I also do not want the Lion to come back. I agree another Primarch should come back...just not mine. I do not believe for a second that would be written well. Same for Luther and the Fallen amassing in Legion scale...just leave that as "something spooky over there" and never speak of it again.

[Lemondish]

12 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

The second that real, actual Primaris terminators are released, every Firstborn unit needs to be sent to the proverbial shelf of Legends (which in itself shouldn't exist...it's the ask permission to use Forge World situation again). And I do mean every firstborn unit. Tactical, Assault, Devastator, Rhino, Predator, Land Raider...the lot. Just rip that band-aid off...it's already been on for too long.

Now that's a hot take!

In your estimation, why does it need to happen? You mention the adage "ripping off a band-aid", so is this just in the interest of quickly dealing with something you feel is inevitable? What if it creates more problems for the faction?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Lemondish

[Cpt_Reaper]

7 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Now that's a hot take!

In your estimation, why does it need to happen? You mention the adage "ripping off a band-aid", so is this just in the interest of quickly dealing with something you feel is inevitable? What if it creates more problems for the faction?

Pretty much. Firstborn were doomed the second Primaris were a thing. The mistake was drawing out the release to the point where everyone rightfully complained that Space Marines took up too much of the release cycle. Firstborn should have been sent to Legends in their entirety at the start of 9th. Now we've had them beside Primaris for 2 editions, and likely will for at least another Edition.

When they finally go, it will result in complaints. There'd be the players who were always going to be upset at their removal, and maybe some players who weren't expecting to be upset. Then Firstborn would be gone, consigned to Legends or HH 2.0 and the game would keep going. But the band-aid has been on too long, it is festering now. When it comes off it will cause more damage that will have to be dealt with.

I have an entire Battle Company, and around 40ish Terminators and a dozen or so Ravenwing bikes. I certainly don't want to be unable to use those models because Legends is basically illegal in my neck of the woods and I won't touch Horus Heresy with a red measuring stick. However, the sooner the pain happens the sooner I can work through it and past it.

[Kallas]

Or something else instead of just completely squatting* Firstborn, like actually putting some effort into combining the ranges (eg, an Intercessor Weapons sprue to allow "Tactical" squad loadouts, allowing people to run their Firstborn as Primaris). It won't happen, but it should.

*Yes they're back now, but Primaris are basically the Votann of Firstborn.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I doubt they will shelf FB, not at least until the Primaris range of units is better fleshed out. For example terminators aren’t going anywhere soon.

[Lemondish]

1 hour ago, Black Blow Fly said:

I doubt they will shelf FB, not at least until the Primaris range of units is better fleshed out. For example terminators aren’t going anywhere soon.

Not just Terminators, but jump troops, vehicles, chapter specific characters and units, and veterans. If Primaris are going to replace FB, they need many more releases to come close. Which I guess flies in the face of the wish to have it all over as soon as possible.

I can understand the desire to see an expected replacement happen sooner rather than later, even if I don't think it's likely to ever happen. If it does, I hope it happens when Primaris can replace what makes Firstborn so damn good in today's meta. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Lemondish