Desired changes for 10th Ed

[Dark Legionnare]

1 hour ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

I'd imagine a lot of the melee weapons on plague marines are going to be rolled into fewer options (this seems to be happening with power and force weapons). The new attitude towards simplicity feels at odds with the sheer quantity of options this data sheet currently has. It'd be quite cool if they broke the plague marine data sheet into three separate ones eg. melee build, tactical build and havoc style build but I don't see it happening.

 

Based on the loyalist terminator data sheet I can certainly see Blightlords being an even tougher version. Again, I'd assume their melee weapons would get rolled into one type. 

Finally, I'd be very surprised if Feel No Pain [5+] didn't return and I'd even guess it'd be army wide as the overall faction ability, similar to Oath of Moment.

Army wide FNP on the one-page faction rules is what I suspect (hope) as well.

 

It irked me to no end that GW's excuse on codex release was "We made it -1D to speed up the game", which is true; it had that effect.

 

But then, they gave out to everything and their mother 5+++ and 6+++ from various effects like candy. (Admech, custodes, etc, etc...)

 

That small couple months of P.A. where I could give a land raider or defiler FNP was a blast. "Contaminated monstrosity" was the strat if I recall correctly? In no way broken, made them SLIGHTLY-to-OKAY hardier but was thematic and fun as hell; more importantly, it made them playable.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Special Officer Doofy]

48 minutes ago, Dark Legionnare said:

Army wide FNP on the one-page faction rules is what I suspect (hope) as well.

 

It irked me to no end that GW's excuse on codex release was "We made it -1D to speed up the game", which is true; it had that effect.

 

But then, they gave out to everything and their mother 5+++ and 6+++ from various effects like candy. (Admech, custodes, etc, etc...)

 

That small couple months of P.A. where I could give a land raider or defiler FNP was a blast. "Contaminated monstrosity" was the strat if I recall correctly? In no way broken, made them SLIGHTLY-to-OKAY hardier but was thematic and fun as hell; more importantly, it made them playable.

 

I'd be so happy to go back to 5+++. -1D is much more inferior. And if it's one of our faction rules, then units like the rhino will get it! I doubt GW will back track it though and give us our FNP back. My Nurgle Daemons got hit even harder, not even -1D haha. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I can see why they might want to speed the game up there, as the game will be slowed when you're dealing with multi-damage weapon shots and allocating damage. This is an issue with the Feel No Pain interacting with the way multi damage attacks are allocated in Warhammer 40k. You have to do each attack one-by-one to see whether it fully kills a model or not. -1D doesn't quite address that right either, but makes it more predictable, so you only have to work out the alteration to shot allocation once, not on the fly.

 

Sigmar for instance does ward saves all over the place, but damage doesn't end at one model, it spills across the entire unit. You can roll these dice at once, and the core rules don't interact weirdly with the mechanism, which is why Nurgle retained its Ward Save there.

 

Anyways, long story short, I'm interested to see how they address this. I do wonder if they will change damage allocation across a unit.

Edited April 24, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Verbal Underbelly]

I've had another thought as well. I have a feeling plague weapons with have Anti-infantry <3+> for larger weapons and Anti-infantry <4+> for things like plague knives. That way you've got the plague effect baked into the weapon profiles and the space for some nuance between differing weapons without loads of extra rules. This is weaker than re-roll 1s to wound but I believe GW have stated they're trying to reduce re-rolls in general so I think this is how it's going to play out. 

 

[Special Officer Doofy]

5 hours ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

I've had another thought as well. I have a feeling plague weapons with have Anti-infantry <3+> for larger weapons and Anti-infantry <4+> for things like plague knives. That way you've got the plague effect baked into the weapon profiles and the space for some nuance between differing weapons without loads of extra rules. This is weaker than re-roll 1s to wound but I believe GW have stated they're trying to reduce re-rolls in general so I think this is how it's going to play out. 

 

 

We'll I hope you're wrong cause DG sucks enough as is. We had the lowest mono win rate just above inquisition in 8th (DG were at like 33% and inquisition was at 28%) and in 9th barely ever hung around 45%. DG lost all their staying power and are the slowest army and not really lethal. Giving them the -1T debuff aura was a slap in the face considering how slow we are, and it came with a nerf in strength to our best melee units of the mower drone, death shroud and the flails (morty had the aura in 8th). 

 

I'm all for speeding things up and "simplified but not simple", but not if it's going to be constant nerfs for my army. I'm honestly not a fan of the anti stuff so hopefully it's not that.

[Verbal Underbelly]

I can't speak to your play style or the models in your collection but I think we're going to see a return of the rhino rush in 10th edition.

Being able to drive (12 inches?) then hop out and start shooting is going to give death guard players some board control and reach. Possessed and bloat drones are reasonably fast as well aren't they? And we're seeing the return of assault ramps on Land Raiders so I think loading Terminators into them is going to see a comeback too. I have a suspicion that transport capacities are increasing too so we'll be able to have full squads with attached characters.

I did notice that the ork Mek's has two abilities that have been rolled into a single one. He can heal D3 vehicle wounds and give said vehicle +1 to hit. That's more or less what a Warpsmith can currently do. This makes me think that Death Guard characters will have similar layered abilities. It might be possible that the plague surgeon has two abilities rolled into one. Obviously can't say for certain...

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Verbal Underbelly

[Special Officer Doofy]

1 hour ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

I can't speak to your play style or the models in your collection but I think we're going to see a return of the rhino rush in 10th edition.

Being able to drive (12 inches?) then hop out and start shooting is going to give death guard players some board control and reach. Possessed and bloat drones are reasonably fast as well aren't they? And we're seeing the return of assault ramps on Land Raiders so I think loading Terminators into them is going to see a comeback too. I have a suspicion that transport capacities are increasing too so we'll be able to have full squads with attached characters.

I did notice that the ork Mek's has two abilities that have been rolled into a single one. He can heal D3 vehicle wounds and give said vehicle +1 to hit. That's more or less what a Warpsmith can currently do. This makes me think that Death Guard characters will have similar layered abilities. It might be possible that the plague surgeon has two abilities rolled into one. Obviously can't say for certain...

 

 

And those transports in the last two editions did not have DR (minus the short time after PA before 9th when you could spend CP on it) and are focus fired into oblivion. Even worse with -1D, my opponents are all smart enough to dump their 2D weapons into them. So I hope they finally get DR. Possessed were never that competitive, and are out shadowed by free wargear plague marines. Plus possessed statline will change to be more in line with the Chaos space marines ones. Which could be better or worse, points depending. I have every DG specific model (including the worthless terrain haha) and old rhino's and a Land raider. I like to at least try everything a few times before I write them off (and the DG models look so cool so why not).

 

I would love for death guard to have a "warpsmith" character, the LoV was advertised as interacting with daemon engines in his original warcom article, mentioning that they follow his mantle, yet he doesn't interact with them at all. Plague surgeon and noxious blightbringer need some real love. The other 3 characters saw the table now and then. That's another issue with the next edition, characters joining units again. I'm assuming Terminator armor characters will only be able to join Terminator squads. Power armor with power armor. What will be able to join possessed? Weird base size, high movement. Doesn't match any DG characters besides a daemon prince.

 

I'm equal parts excited and nervous. DG need some love. I tell myself they can't make DG any worse, but then again GW can be like "hold my beer" haha. Regular terminators are now T5 with 4++. What will ours be?

[Dark Legionnare]

4 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

And those transports in the last two editions did not have DR (minus the short time after PA before 9th when you could spend CP on it) and are focus fired into oblivion. Even worse with -1D, my opponents are all smart enough to dump their 2D weapons into them. So I hope they finally get DR. Possessed were never that competitive, and are out shadowed by free wargear plague marines. Plus possessed statline will change to be more in line with the Chaos space marines ones. Which could be better or worse, points depending. I have every DG specific model (including the worthless terrain haha) and old rhino's and a Land raider. I like to at least try everything a few times before I write them off (and the DG models look so cool so why not).

 

I would love for death guard to have a "warpsmith" character, the LoV was advertised as interacting with daemon engines in his original warcom article, mentioning that they follow his mantle, yet he doesn't interact with them at all. Plague surgeon and noxious blightbringer need some real love. The other 3 characters saw the table now and then. That's another issue with the next edition, characters joining units again. I'm assuming Terminator armor characters will only be able to join Terminator squads. Power armor with power armor. What will be able to join possessed? Weird base size, high movement. Doesn't match any DG characters besides a daemon prince.

 

I'm equal parts excited and nervous. DG need some love. I tell myself they can't make DG any worse, but then again GW can be like "hold my beer" haha. Regular terminators are now T5 with 4++. What will ours be?

Was just talking with a buddy.  The wishlist for the surgeon was that whatever squad he's attached to gets a 4+++ and he can revive one model from the attached squad a turn.

With characters having only specific units they could be tied to, that'd be a thematic, fun, and perfectly powerful buff to a 10 man plague marine squad.  Seemingly, it would make sense that's the only thing he & the tallyman could attach to. Ergo, that 4+++ wouldn't reach "whoof" levels in a terminator squad since he couldn't attach to them.

[Special Officer Doofy]

3 hours ago, Dark Legionnare said:

Was just talking with a buddy.  The wishlist for the surgeon was that whatever squad he's attached to gets a 4+++ and he can revive one model from the attached squad a turn.

With characters having only specific units they could be tied to, that'd be a thematic, fun, and perfectly powerful buff to a 10 man plague marine squad.  Seemingly, it would make sense that's the only thing he & the tallyman could attach to. Ergo, that 4+++ wouldn't reach "whoof" levels in a terminator squad since he couldn't attach to them.

 

That would make sense if DR went back to 5+++, but going from no FNP to 4+++ might be too much. Having the characters join a unit does enable them to make stronger buffs though on some of these characters. Now they can control who gets the buff (limit the unit types they can join) and how many (just the unit it joins).

[Dark Legionnare]

50 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

That would make sense if DR went back to 5+++, but going from no FNP to 4+++ might be too much. Having the characters join a unit does enable them to make stronger buffs though on some of these characters. Now they can control who gets the buff (limit the unit types they can join) and how many (just the unit it joins).

Aye, sorry. That's what I meant. IF (BIG IF) we get 5+++ army-wide back.

 

And that's exactly what we were talking about. Rather than unintended consequences they can't forsee coming from character effect affecting anything in a bubble, they can limit exactly what they effect; ergo, beef many characters up in usability quite a bit. I would LOVE to see the blightbringer do SOMETHING for the love of... I've found no excuse to ever bring the lad since 2018. Managed all the other characters for some logic, except him.

 

A devotee of the grandfather can dream...

Edited April 25, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[WrathOfTheLion]

Really depends why they do it. While I do see why they removed the FNP for the damage reduction, doesn't mean I like it. A bit hard these days to get the point across elsewhere that entertaining an idea or thought, doesn't mean you agree with it .

 

I'm somewhat interested in how datasheets end up going. I've been interested in making a more CSM-leaning wing to my Death Guard, with Possessed, the Daemon Prince, some Legionaries with old DG decals, etc. I do want to see how that shakes out given the index first at least, however.

[Special Officer Doofy]

With 10th and the indexes most likely less than 2 months away, holding off would make the most sense. I'm super curious how they handle the plague marine wargear.

[Verbal Underbelly]

At the moment a 10 man unit of plague marines can take five special ranged weapons. I have a feeling this is going to change for fewer. I don't like that but I think it's going to happen. It happened with the transition from 8th to 9th when a load of folks had armed whole squads with double plague knives...

 

As I've said previously it'd be great if they opened up plague marines to extra datasheets (melee/tac/havoc).

 

In a wider context I think there's a strong possibility that GW are going to use the AoS model for unit sizes. So basically five or 10 models per plague marine squad and call it 'reinforced'. So no more X numbers of models.

 

Finally, I'd be very surprised if the plague champion will retain the option for a plasma gun. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

3 hours ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

At the moment a 10 man unit of plague marines can take five special ranged weapons. I have a feeling this is going to change for fewer. I don't like that but I think it's going to happen. It happened with the transition from 8th to 9th when a load of folks had armed whole squads with double plague knives...

 

I'm not sure. It depends on how the load outs in the box are most likely.

 

3 hours ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

In a wider context I think there's a strong possibility that GW are going to use the AoS model for unit sizes. So basically five or 10 models per plague marine squad and call it 'reinforced'. So no more X numbers of models.

 

Doubt it. They sell them in a box of 7. Don't think GW will do that. It creates issues for left over points as well, not being able to add one model here and there. Don't think that will bleed over into 40k. But maybe, you're not the first to think that.

 

3 hours ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

Finally, I'd be very surprised if the plague champion will retain the option for a plasma gun. 

 

The kit that had it is gone now (it was the easy to build) so maybe. Seems weird. I never gave mine a plasma though so I'm good. I'm just hoping their power fists become plague fists, like on the LoV. 

 

[Verbal Underbelly]

8 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Doubt it. They sell them in a box of 7. Don't think GW will do that. It creates issues for left over points as well, not being able to add one model here and there. Don't think that will bleed over into 40k. But maybe, you're not the first to think that.

Oh so they do! Here's hoping they don't follow that model - I like the option to have random numbers in my squads. 

[KingYertle]

Anyone else worried about how our character heavy roster is going to work with the new character joining squads rules previewed by WarCom?  I don't believe they said Auras were 100% removed from the game, but they did preview that characters would buff the squads they join.  Don't see how adding the Virion will be worth more then just adding another unit of marines or terminators.  Perhaps Virion will form their own unit and maintain some semblance of aura-like abilities.  This period of drip feeding info is frustrating.  Just give us the rules already and let us build excitement for the launch!!!

[Verbal Underbelly]

I think every faction player will be feeling much the same - best thing to do now is just enjoy 9th edition while it lasts and sit tight. I personally looking forward to a final game in a couple of weeks time. 

I have no idea how character heavy builds will look - do we currently know if characters have to join units?

[Special Officer Doofy]

7 hours ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

I think every faction player will be feeling much the same - best thing to do now is just enjoy 9th edition while it lasts and sit tight. I personally looking forward to a final game in a couple of weeks time. 

I have no idea how character heavy builds will look - do we currently know if characters have to join units?

 

Not all characters, tech marines would not be joining a squad. I am curious about what the 5 elite characters will do. As long as they point cost them cheap enough it should not be an issue.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I've been giving blightlords some though, and I'm thinking they're a good candidate to unify the axe and balesword.

 

There's no way to kit a squad out one way or the other, so it'd save everyone some headache to just remove that distinction.

 

Maybe just given the weapon a standard strike and a sweep profile.

Edited April 28, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Special Officer Doofy]

46 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

I've been giving blightlords some though, and I'm thinking they're a good candidate to unify the axe and balesword.

 

There's no way to kit a squad out one way or the other, so it'd save everyone some headache to just remove that distinction.

 

Maybe just given the weapon a standard strike and a sweep profile.

 

I think they could combine the profiles, but a strike and sweep is already the death shrouds thing. Question, whose profile do you use though? The sword or the axe? If we lose -1T aura I rather use the sword profile.

[WrathOfTheLion]

47 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

I think they could combine the profiles, but a strike and sweep is already the death shrouds thing. Question, whose profile do you use though? The sword or the axe? If we lose -1T aura I rather use the sword profile.

They may altogether make it different than either. As long as it works well enough, I'm not too picky.

 

I'm looking forward to them doing this for Death Guard. It was a little bit startling for Chaos Marines when they ripped the bandaid off, but honestly making a Chaos Space Marine army or World Eaters army is just so much easier right now.

[Special Officer Doofy]

32 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

They may altogether make it different than either. As long as it works well enough, I'm not too picky.

 

I'm looking forward to them doing this for Death Guard. It was a little bit startling for Chaos Marines when they ripped the bandaid off, but honestly making a Chaos Space Marine army or World Eaters army is just so much easier right now.

 

I agree. People got mad when they changed the wargear limitations to what's in the box, but that's the way it should have always been. I had too many blight launcher plague marines when that changed, but I wasn't mad. And if they are going to only put so many of each weapon in the kit but let every model have one, just make it cosmetic (like what they did for accursed weapons).

[Verbal Underbelly]

I wouldn't want plague marines to be entirely box locked...

I'd still want to be able to double up on certain guns but conversely I'm not that bothered about the melee builds and having less granularity there would be a welcome change. That's entirely personal preference though. 

I wonder if generic chaos lords and terminator sorcerers are going to go away since they don't have an official faction specific model now that I think of it... I wouldn't like that.

[Urauloth]

1 hour ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

I wouldn't want plague marines to be entirely box locked...

Me neither, since I ebayed myself some extra plasma guns, but I think it's pretty likely to happen based on what we've seen from CSM and WE. On the other hand, it would mean locking in the squad size at 7, I wonder if they'll pull the trigger on that?

[Verbal Underbelly]

There's an outside chance it won't be 100% box locked. CSM can take any of the heavy weapons... not just missile launcher and heavy bolter...