Desired changes for 10th Ed

[Tokugawa]

With nerf on melta weapons, allied wardogs may not provide much help on anti-tank work, or not better than "bring more PBC".

 

Allied nurgle daemon? Sounds a joke…

[Tokugawa]

It is IK, but CK would share most of statline with it.

 

6" less range, better dmg in melta range.

[KingYertle]

OMG Imperial Knights gain FNP as a Detachment Rule.  That stings.

[Plaguecaster]

Yeah seeing entire armies Like knights and world eaters having it naturally armywide or having a rule that let's them give it to every unit each turn is pretty damn annoying and a massive kick in the face.

Hate seeing people everywhere say my anger / annoyance is stupid "just wait for the rest of the army to reveal" why, we've been shown our pitiful faction rule nothing can change that yeah some units like surgeon may actually give us feel no pain but will only limited to one unit he joins and I doubt morty will do much to buff the whole army.

 

I'm still going to play as Death guard are my only army but this edition looks like it'll massively suck and just go back to removing whole heap of models each time anything shoots or charges them since nothing looks like it'll actually keep DG units on the board for long since our so called resilence is now obsolete 

 

[KingYertle]

I'm holding out hope the Plague Marine has something juicy on its datasheet.

 

Assuming the Plague Surgeon is more than just a very expensive med-pack, a unit of 10 plague marines joined by a Surgeon and a Plaguecaster, with its -1 to W Debuff, might prove to be Disgustingly Resilient.  However if its a 400 point unit then... meh.

 

Honestly thinking I might be forced to play as Chaos Legionaries.  Maybe the Mark of Nurgle (assuming Marks still exists due to wording in the previewed stratagem) will do something interesting.

[Rain]

I agree that the preview sucks, but people saying that DG used to always have really strong defensive rules are just wrong. I played DG from the tail end of 3rd through 5th.

 

In 3rd MoN was +1 T and “True Grit” which let you count your bolter as a CCW. In 4th and 5th PM’s had FnP and defensive grenades, but other Nurgle marked units just had +1T and nothing else. Not saying that them watering down the army like this is good, just that the really good defensive bonuses armywide are relatively new, by 40k standards. FWIW I agree that DG should have army wide 5+++ and not the hokey contagion thing.

 

[Special Officer Doofy]

52 minutes ago, Rain said:

I agree that the preview sucks, but people saying that DG used to always have really strong defensive rules are just wrong. I played DG from the tail end of 3rd through 5th.

 

In 3rd MoN was +1 T and “True Grit” which let you count your bolter as a CCW. In 4th and 5th PM’s had FnP and defensive grenades, but other Nurgle marked units just had +1T and nothing else. Not saying that them watering down the army like this is good, just that the really good defensive bonuses armywide are relatively new, by 40k standards. FWIW I agree that DG should have army wide 5+++ and not the hokey contagion thing.

 

 

I think most people are talking about 8th onward, ever since they had their own codex, access to their own units and lost the ability to take half the regular CSM codex. We went from 5+++ to the toned down -1D to nothing.

[mel_danes]

Doofy has the crux of it.

It's been a slow slide 2 edition Nerf culminating in army wide Pigpen from Peanuts.

Contagion was cool, when we had other stuff going for us.

 

It's like I'm ordering a cheese burger and GW bring out a grilled cheese. Where's the meat brah?

Oh this is the cheese burger now.

 

No, no it is not.

[Tokugawa]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/legions-and-legends-warhammer-the-horus-heresy-models-in-games-of-warhammer-40000/

 

Some HH/FW models are practically "banned" in 10th.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think that's putting it rather too strongly, even with the use of quotation marks.

 

All that's happened is they aren't available for tournament play and their points will not be re-evaluated for balance.  Other forms of play, including matched play, still allow them.

 

So, like always, people are free to use (or not use them) as they and their opponents desire in their private games.  I know there is a tendency for people to follow the tournament scene in private games, but part of that was that there was no rules division between matched and tournament play, where this article suggests that there is in 10th (we'll have to see on that).

 

There may be some stigma against legends rules currently (I don't know, I'm not generally out in the greater gaming community), but maybe putting a bunch of currently available models in it will help alleviate any stigma - which would be a good thing, IMHO.

[WrathOfTheLion]

They weren't balancing or updating them anyways over 9E, except keyword replacements or a nerf if they popped up too much in tournaments.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

On 5/18/2023 at 9:57 AM, KingYertle said:

OMG Imperial Knights gain FNP as a Detachment Rule.  That stings.

 

It's salt in the wound right now for sure, but doesn't that give at least a little glimmer of hope that we may have our own detachment which does the same once the codex drops? Or even better, a character that can grant it to certain units? 

[Plaguecaster]

So Morty's rules have been revealed from the twitch 

 

[Special Officer Doofy]

40 minutes ago, Plaguecaster said:

So Morty's rules have been revealed from the twitch 

 

 

Just copying and pasting my comment from the news thread.

 

Wow he got nerfed HAAAARD. No more -1 to be hit on himself, no more -1D, lost 1 ap, 2S and up to 2 damage on his stronger attack, lost 2 of his stronger attacks or 6 of his weaker, weaker attack lost 1S and 1ap. He lost 2 wounds. He lost 2" movement (which is funny considering how many people tried telling me they are not losing movement in this thread alone). Lost some abilities for these crappy ones.

 

Hopefully it comes with a solid 100+ points drop or he is absolute garbage now. 

 

Plague marines lost 1ap on everything and their special ability sucks. They also dont even show the icon on the wargear at all. PBC is only T10 for being more armored with a giant shield compared to a repulsor. It lost 12" on the entropy cannon.

 

Dude DG are complete garbage now. The only things that will even be over S10 will be the much worse Mortarion, and lascannons on the old ass Helbrute, predator and defiler.

 

We lost our FnP for a multitude of bull:cuss: reasons, but oh hey look every marine can have it now, the most common faction in the game.

 

Definitely sitting the edition out.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[Plaguecaster]

Yep all that 'JuSt wAit aNd SeE' just showed how bad it really is. What kind of joke is remorseless and the nerfing of our plague weapons with less ap etc. Even Entrophy cannons lost range so one of our extremely few antitank options just got worse like seriously how does GW expect us to kill any sort of armour especially since all FW options are now legend likely to banned completely the first season update

[WrathOfTheLion]

It's not looking great. I want to see the final indexes before making a final call, but I'm definitely not impressed.

 

Plague marines look like they can do some work, but it depends on how they're costed.

 

The foul blightspawn with torrent + anti-infantry 2+ and ap -2 is pretty nice for hitting elite infantry, and getting fights first for the unit is still good. I think I still want to see how everything looks as a whole.

 

Still, I don't see much to deal with armor, which is going to be a problem for the army I think.

Edited June 2, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yep, doesn't look much better after some coffee and sleep. One of the main issues, as Captain Idaho pointed out in the news thread, is too many rules are discordant with each other. Reminds me of 8E DA, who were never good for the same reason.

 

What models will there be to handle higher toughness vehicles? Predators and Land Raiders are the only things I can think of with lascannon access.

Edited June 2, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Special Officer Doofy]

11 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Predators and Land Raiders are the only things I can think of with lascannon access.

 

The other older non DG specific units can too, defiler and Helbrute. Boooo

[WrathOfTheLion]

36 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

The other older non DG specific units can too, defiler and Helbrute. Boooo

Ah yeah, those too. Like with Thousand Sons and World Eaters, there's a lot of room for expanded units to fill certain roles. Havocs would certainly be nice.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The Daemon prince on foot was the sort of unit I wanted to see that actually does something useful with the contagion mechanic.

 

Not sure it's amazing, but it is at least a combo that does something useful. Almost certainly an auto take in any DG list, although it won't carry it on its own.

[Bulwyf]

The released bat reps showing the official data sheets/rules are even worse than I thought they would be. DG is straight garbage tier. There's simply no other way of saying it.

Slowest army in the game

No defensive abilities to survive being the slowest army in the game

No real anti tank weapons with PBC entropy cannons nerfed to hell

Morty nerfed to hell

PM having a literal useless special ability

Characters restricted to what units they can join

 

There's literally nothing positive for DG. Every thing that was bad in 9th is just getting worse for 10th except more things are stripped away from DG. It shocking how bad they have made DG for 10th edition. 

[Rain]

Alright, fess up guys, which one of you got up to no good with a rules writer's wife?

[Guzzlrr]

15 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

The released bat reps showing the official data sheets/rules are even worse than I thought they would be. DG is straight garbage tier. There's simply no other way of saying it.

Slowest army in the game

No defensive abilities to survive being the slowest army in the game

No real anti tank weapons with PBC entropy cannons nerfed to hell

Morty nerfed to hell

PM having a literal useless special ability

Characters restricted to what units they can join

 

There's literally nothing positive for DG. Every thing that was bad in 9th is just getting worse for 10th except more things are stripped away from DG. It shocking how bad they have made DG for 10th edition. 

 

Im not quite sure the massive generalisations are warranted, for example Morty was always going to get hit slightly with the nerf bat, there was no rules they could have came up with for a codex which would beat his rules in 9, However wither he's going to be good will depend on his points. hes got a 2+save now and can benefit from cover T12 so even lascannons will need 4s meltas will need 5s seems like thats a bit of a buff. the context of this edition means everything will be a lil less killy but make no mistake morty is going to be a tough cookie

 

armies slower yeah that does suck however i imagine deep striking terminators into position will largely solve that, also dunno what the deal is with blight drones or the Blight haulers yet either fact is we still dont know about 70% of the datasheets. i think once people get their hands on the game or even just the full picture we will know what we're actually dealing with 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Guzzlrr

[Cleon]

It looks like Death Guard just have to take what shooting armies dish out for multiple turns without the firepower to seriously threaten reducing the incoming and let the Melee armies pick and choose the fights (something like a stormboy heavy Ork list is going to take them apart piecemeal) - I don't see the raw power eithe rin durability or offense to overcome that kind of inherent disadvantage.

 

Adding the option for a heavy weapons infantry Death Guard squad (even if it's just a mix of blight launchers and missiles) or creating another 'shooty' demon engine would maybe help the first, for the second I think the only option Death Guard have is to heavily mech up anything that's not deep striking - Rhinos everywhere and maybe a Land Raider helps the poor marines get where they need to go.

[Special Officer Doofy]

6 hours ago, Guzzlrr said:

 

Im not quite sure the massive generalisations are warranted, for example Morty was always going to get hit slightly with the nerf bat, there was no rules they could have came up with for a codex which would beat his rules in 9, However wither he's going to be good will depend on his points. hes got a 2+save now and can benefit from cover T12 so even lascannons will need 4s meltas will need 5s seems like thats a bit of a buff. the context of this edition means everything will be a lil less killy but make no mistake morty is going to be a tough cookie

 

armies slower yeah that does suck however i imagine deep striking terminators into position will largely solve that, also dunno what the deal is with blight drones or the Blight haulers yet either fact is we still dont know about 70% of the datasheets. i think once people get their hands on the game or even just the full picture we will know what we're actually dealing with 

 

Dude Mortarion lost 2" movement, 2-6 attacks, 1-2 strength, 1ap, 2 damage, 2 wounds, his 3 free WLT, his ability to reroll his own hit rolls, nothing to replace his 2 casts and 3 denies besides one S7 spell (and one of those casts was always -1 to be hit on himself), -1D, his grenade, the nurgling attacks. 

 

He was not nerfed, he was neutered. He needs at least a 100+ points drop. And we have seen over 70% of the datasheets already. We have seen the blight hauler. It got +1 to wound vehicles with ranged weapons, so it makes up for it's weapons staying at S9, but it too was nerfed, lost some ap, lost S on its bile spurt, lost -1 to be hit in melee and lost its -1D. Just like most DG unit barring stuff like the Daemon prince, it lost more than it gained.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy