WH40k game Angels of Death, Returning Primarchs and the Future of 40k Theories

[Mike8404]

Here's what I think is the bigger picture, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but an AoD book is small fish compared to what it looks like GW is hinting at.

 

Remember, Black Templars are rumored to have only got a range refresh because that was the biggest request in the survey about 4 years ago.

 

The big thing here is the first Primarch released was Guilliman, the second is rumored to be The Lion, and Blood Angels are suspected to be the 3rd refresh.  Guilliman leads Imperium Sanctus and Dante leads Imperium Nihlus, which could be led by The Lion should be return. 

 

This doesn't tell me the AoD book is what GW is aiming for, it tells me Sanguineous is returning.  2 of the 3 Imperium Secondus Primarchs have returned, or appear to be, and the 3rd range refresh looks like its Blood Angels, that's not a random coincidence.  Who better than Sanguineous to reunite and lead the Imperium as Emperor just like he was with Secondus?  GW is being very on the nose with the Dark Angels references, I think they're on the nose here too.

 

Edit:. This also makes me consider what GW is going to do with Emperor's Children, too.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Mike8404

[Mogger351]

11 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

Here's what I think is the bigger picture, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but an AoD book is small fish compared to what it looks like GW is hinting at.

 

Remember, Black Templars are rumored to have only got a range refresh because that was the biggest request in the survey about 4 years ago.

 

The big thing here is the first Primarch released was Guilliman, the second is rumored to be The Lion, and Blood Angels are suspected to be the 3rd refresh.  Guilliman leads Imperium Sanctus and Dante leads Imperium Nihlus, which could be led by The Lion should be return. 

 

This doesn't tell me the AoD book is what GW is aiming for, it tells me Sanguineous is returning.  2 of the 3 Imperium Secondus Primarchs have returned, or appear to be, and the 3rd range refresh looks like its Blood Angels, that's not a random coincidence.  Who better than Sanguineous to reunite and lead the Imperium as Emperor just like he was with Secondus?  GW is being very on the nose with the Dark Angels references, I think they're on the nose here too.

 

Edit:. This also makes me consider what GW is going to do with Emperor's Children, too.

Only issue with that is that Guilliman, The Lion and Fulgrim are all materially alive by some definition somewhere in the setting and have been for a long time. Sanguinius has been dead for decades of fluff, not just missing or presumed dead, but very much factually dead.

[Mike8404]

5 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Only issue with that is that Guilliman, The Lion and Fulgrim are all materially alive by some definition somewhere in the setting and have been for a long time. Sanguinius has been dead for decades of fluff, not just missing or presumed dead, but very much factually dead.

This is true, but I would add even the dead Primarchs aren't "dead" by GW's standards.  If they can find a way to bring back Sanguineous, they will.

 

As for Fulgrim, he's back for a reason and is held in his PokeBall until the Emperor's Children range refresh I imagine.  GW greenlit him for a reason.  I'm sure I'm wrong, but it all adds up somehow

Edited January 31, 2023 by Mike8404
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[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Sanguinius could return in the form of the rumored sanguinor avatar of sanguinius.

with the amount of worship he gets from having a whole holiday celebration observed in his honor sanguinius has to qualify as a minor warp god by now.

 

or he could just return from time to time in the material universe  essentially as an imperial greater demon of the emperor.

 

we’ve seen imperial warp beings in the form of living saints already in tabletop, and a few in lore.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Karhedron]

I like the idea of a new Sanguinor as the BA's "Primarch-equivalent" centrepiece model but lore-wise I think I would prefer Sanguinius to stay dead. His sacrifice pretty much defines his character and that of the Blood Angels. Having him come back would pretty much undermine that although I accept narrative quality takes second place to cool new models.

[Matcap86]

4 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

[...] although I accept narrative quality takes second place to cool new models.

 

I don't.

[Mike8404]

10 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Sanguinius could return in the form of the rumored sanguinor avatar of sanguinius.

with the amount of worship he gets from having a whole holiday celebration observed in his honor sanguinius has to qualify as a minor warp god by now.

 

or he could just return from time to time in the material universe  essentially as an imperial greater demon of the emperor.

 

we’ve seen imperial warp beings in the form of living saints already in tabletop, and a few in lore.

I think the Sanguinor has a big part here, absolutely.  It was the Sanguinor who showed Sanguineous to Dante.  GW could use the "Sanguineous is Space Jesus" stuff and bring him back as a stronger, more immaterial/material being with power second only to the Emperor.  So you have the Angels of Death and the Crusaders if the God Emperor all getting a refresh leading up to the return of Sanguineous.  

 

Will it happen? Maybe not.  Could it happen?  Well, that depends on how much GW likes money

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

I like the idea of a new Sanguinor as the BA's "Primarch-equivalent" centrepiece model but lore-wise I think I would prefer Sanguinius to stay dead. His sacrifice pretty much defines his character and that of the Blood Angels. Having him come back would pretty much undermine that although I accept narrative quality takes second place to cool new models.

I don’t think bringing him back undermines the sacrifice.

he knew he would die, he went anyway. Unless they say he also foresaw his resurrection it takes nothing away from the sacrifice he made.

 

even then it’s still kinda on theme to me to have him be resurrected. To me it seems sanguinius is very much inspired by Jesus.

[Mike8404]

14 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I don’t think bringing him back undermines the sacrifice.

he knew he would die, he went anyway. Unless they say he also foresaw his resurrection it takes nothing away from the sacrifice he made.

 

even then it’s still kinda on theme to me to have him be resurrected. To me it seems sanguinius is very much inspired by Jesus.

Exactly!  What does Jesus do in the End Times of the Bible?  He comes back, casts out Satan and his evil from the world condemning him to a dungeon of sorts, unites the Church with himself, and rules over a united world for a millennium. 

 

Sanguineous is Space Jesus.  Guilliman and The Lion will be struggling to hold back the rift dividing the Imperium so Sanguineous returns stronger because of his sacrifice and sorrowful over what the Imperium has become, descends from wherever he is, casts out the rift, reunites the Imperium, and leads as Regent or whatever title GW gives him until they either reset the setting, or bring the Emperor back.  

 

I think it's pretty spot on this is what GW is going towards.

[gideon stargreave]

1 minute ago, Mike8404 said:

Exactly!  What does Jesus do in the End Times of the Bible?  He comes back, casts out Satan and his evil from the world condemning him to a dungeon of sorts, unites the Church with himself, and rules over a united world for a millennium. 

 

Sanguineous is Space Jesus.  Guilliman and The Lion will be struggling to hold back the rift dividing the Imperium so Sanguineous returns stronger because of his sacrifice and sorrowful over what the Imperium has become, descends from wherever he is, casts out the rift, reunites the Imperium, and leads as Regent or whatever title GW gives him until they either reset the setting, or bring the Emperor back.  

 

I think it's pretty spot on this is what GW is going towards.

But the end times of the bible is a prophecy. 40k has always placed itself just before the apocalypse itself. Having him (and Russ too) return would undermine the mystery of the setting. Will the Rhana Dandra happen as prophesied? I don't know, I like the desperation of it being the players' head cannon

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

17 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

Exactly!  What does Jesus do in the End Times of the Bible?  He comes back, casts out Satan and his evil from the world condemning him to a dungeon of sorts, unites the Church with himself, and rules over a united world for a millennium. 

 

Sanguineous is Space Jesus.  Guilliman and The Lion will be struggling to hold back the rift dividing the Imperium so Sanguineous returns stronger because of his sacrifice and sorrowful over what the Imperium has become, descends from wherever he is, casts out the rift, reunites the Imperium, and leads as Regent or whatever title GW gives him until they either reset the setting, or bring the Emperor back.  

 

I think it's pretty spot on this is what GW is going towards.

I wasn’t even talking about the end times lol. I was just talking about Easter 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 minutes ago, gideon stargreave said:

But the end times of the bible is a prophecy. 40k has always placed itself just before the apocalypse itself. Having him (and Russ too) return would undermine the mystery of the setting. Will the Rhana Dandra happen as prophesied? I don't know, I like the desperation of it being the players' head cannon

I mean they’re already destroying the mystery and have been since the HH series started.

as a kid I loved it , as an adult I hate it.

 

I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it as many times as necessary.

they should have never brought primarchs into 40K, but since they have every chapter/legion deserves to have their primarch or primarch avatar. If I don’t get Sanguinius or something I can point to and say, “that’s sanguinius” in some sense I’ll be butthurt :cuss: and I’m not too proud to admit it. I bet most SW players feel the same way.

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I don’t think bringing him back undermines the sacrifice.

he knew he would die, he went anyway. Unless they say he also foresaw his resurrection it takes nothing away from the sacrifice he made.

 

even then it’s still kinda on theme to me to have him be resurrected. To me it seems sanguinius is very much inspired by Jesus.

Have him come back, despise that he is back and continually try to die on purpose as his new warp form forces him to return via worship?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Have him come back, despise that he is back and continually try to die on purpose as his new warp form forces him to return via worship?

Not going to lie I don’t really know what you’re trying to say here

[Borbarad]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

I like the idea of a new Sanguinor as the BA's "Primarch-equivalent" centrepiece model but lore-wise I think I would prefer Sanguinius to stay dead. His sacrifice pretty much defines his character and that of the Blood Angels. Having him come back would pretty much undermine that although I accept narrative quality takes second place to cool new models.

People were speculating that Sanguinor and Mephston will do a Dragon Ball-esque fusion dance to unite into a new Sanguinius. 
 

Sounds wild, but the speculation is rooted in the narrative that Sanguinor represents Sanguinius’ spirit where as Mephiston represents his physical prowess. 
 

I kind of like the theory since it’s not the rebirth of the original Sanguinius but more of a clone that is and is-not Sanguinius at the same time. 

[Pert]

1 minute ago, Borbarad said:

People were speculating that Sanguinor and Mephston will do a Dragon Ball-esque fusion dance to unite into a new Sanguinius. 
 

Sounds wild, but the speculation is rooted in the narrative that Sanguinor represents Sanguinius’ spirit where as Mephiston represents his physical prowess. 
 

I kind of like the theory since it’s not the rebirth of the original Sanguinius but more of a clone that is and is-not Sanguinius at the same time. 

People were speculating that Sanguinor and Mephston will do a Dragon Ball-esque fusion dance to unite into a new Sanguinius. 

 

How would that work though? They just primarised mephiston, so would he just go into the bin as a legends character? Or is this something they could do and undo at will? Dunno about this one.

 

Personally would rather the idea of the Sanguinor be left untouched. Sanguinius is dead, but his form is in the warp and materializes when the Blood Angels are losing to try and save his sons. Or maybe it's not Sanguinius in any form and it's just a warp manifestation of the blood angels when their red thirst is strongest or whatever. Anything other than Sanguinius being actually alive or explicitly manifesting is better imho 

[Mogger351]

40 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Not going to lie I don’t really know what you’re trying to say here

It's a narrative angle, if people wrongly or rightly want Sanguinius to return, he could come back and absolutely despise himself and wish he stayed dead, but can't accomplish it due to worship.

 

If they're going to do dumb stuff like resurrection of a long dead primarch, lets make it grim and negative. I get the feeling most suggestions so far want a winged superman to Mary sue their way across the galaxy winning top trumps with everyone.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Mogger351

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

It's a narrative angle, if people wrongly or rightly want Sanguinius to return, he could come back and absolutely despise himself and wish he stayed dead, but can't accomplish it due to worship.

 

If they're going to do dumb stuff like resurrection of a long dead primarch, lets make it grim and negative. I get the feeling most suggestions so far want a winged superman to Mary sue their way across the galaxy winning top trumps with everyone.

I like that idea.

 

[Borbarad]

25 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

It's a narrative angle, if people wrongly or rightly want Sanguinius to return, he could come back and absolutely despise himself and wish he stayed dead, but can't accomplish it due to worship.

 

If they're going to do dumb stuff like resurrection of a long dead primarch, lets make it grim and negative. I get the feeling most suggestions so far want a winged superman to Mary sue their way across the galaxy winning top trumps with everyone.

Whilst I agree, I’m afraid GW’s contemporary take on space marines is very much Mary Sueish

[Redcomet]

From a purely model perspective I would love a new Sanguinor. 

 

And a Sanguinius returned. Make him a dark angel instead of the ray of light 

[Lexington]

5 hours ago, Mike8404 said:

2 of the 3 Imperium Secondus Primarchs have returned, or appear to be, and the 3rd range refresh looks like its Blood Angels, that's not a random coincidence.

I think this rather, uh, overestimates the extent to which GW prioritizes, values or creates narrative coherence anymore.

[WARMASTER_]

Every fibre of my being wants Sanguinius to stay dead, if he comes back it fundamentally ruins 40k’s founding legend 

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Borbarad said:

People were speculating that Sanguinor and Mephston will do a Dragon Ball-esque fusion dance to unite into a new Sanguinius. 

 

Now I have this in my head "Sanguinor, Mephiston, Unify!" 

 

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Every fibre of my being wants Sanguinius to stay dead, if he comes back it fundamentally ruins 40k’s founding legend 

 

GW has been busy doing this via 30k for a long time now. It used to be legend. Now we know what Sanguinius ate for breakfast on Terra, and it turns out the Primarchs are just really big people who act like people and fight real good.

[Borbarad]

8 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

GW has been busy doing this via 30k for a long time now. It used to be legend. Now we know what Sanguinius ate for breakfast on Terra, and it turns out the Primarchs are just really big people who act like people and fight real good.

Maybe that’s why everything went down the drain during the heresy