WH40k game Angels of Death, Returning Primarchs and the Future of 40k Theories

[jaxom]

I'm hoping the Lion goes to Fenris to get the Peanut Butter to go with the Dark Angel chocolate. I want Bjorn telling wild stories and the Asmodai right about to flip out before he notices the Lion nodding along in sage approval. Abaddon about to achieve ultimate victory, get the message the Wolves and Angels are coming, flashbacks to the end of the Siege, but this time he thinks he can take them.

 

I'm hoping the Rock is destroyed, but it turns out the center of it, where the Lion is, also has a hidden docking bay where the Invincible Reason has been stored for 10,000 years. The chapter evacuates on it, and finds the Lion waiting for them on the bridge.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

I'm hoping the Lion goes to Fenris to get the Peanut Butter to go with the Dark Angel chocolate. I want Bjorn telling wild stories and the Asmodai right about to flip out before he notices the Lion nodding along in sage approval. Abaddon about to achieve ultimate victory, get the message the Wolves and Angels are coming, flashbacks to the end of the Siege, but this time he thinks he can take them.

 

I'm hoping the Rock is destroyed, but it turns out the center of it, where the Lion is, also has a hidden docking bay where the Invincible Reason has been stored for 10,000 years. The chapter evacuates on it, and finds the Lion waiting for them on the bridge.

 

Then the Lion reaches up, pulling off his mask to reveal...

 

Spoiler

"It is I, CATO SICARIUS!"

 

[Brother Captain Arkley]

58 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Then the Lion reaches up, pulling off his mask to reveal...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

"It is I, CATO SICARIUS!"

 

Damn you LOL.

[WARMASTER_]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Yeah, primarchs fighting is short story material. I don’t care about the politics between chapters or the relationship each primarch has with the emperor or their brothers.

 

just because I want to read sanguinius spanking a blood thirster and angron doesn’t mean I want an entire book series about the HH.

I don’t get it? You’re saying you want Sanguinius back in 40K but you’re also not really interested in the reading the lore, don’t care about the politics or rivalries between the legions within said lore that actually make the conflicts interesting? Then why even want Sanguinius resurrected In 40K? Sanguinius has some fantastic portrayals in the Heresy and the best character arc that’s not quite had its final chapters out to page so if you actually were interested in the Character  surely you’d want to read about it? You’d probably also then see it’s also ok to leave him in 30k where he belongs, his stories already been told [Extensively and well] it’s one of self sacrifice and duty in the face of certain death 

 

Resurrecting him just ruins that! It also the destroys most of the Blood Angels lore as tragic heroes striving to emulate their martyred father in the face of the insurmountable twin curses

[Blindhamster]

19 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

I don’t get it? You’re saying you want Sanguinius back in 40K but you’re also not really interested in the reading the lore, don’t care about the politics or rivalries between the legions within said lore that actually make the conflicts interesting? Then why even want Sanguinius resurrected In 40K? Sanguinius has some fantastic portrayals in the Heresy and the best character arc that’s not quite had its final chapters out to page so if you actually were interested in the Character  surely you’d want to read about it? You’d probably also then see it’s also ok to leave him in 30k where he belongs, his stories already been told [Extensively and well] it’s one of self sacrifice and duty in the face of certain death 

 

Resurrecting him just ruins that! It also the destroys most of the Blood Angels lore as tragic heroes striving to emulate their martyred father in the face of the insurmountable twin curses

 

As someone that has read the lore, no, half the HH portrayals for Sanguinius were... kinda bad, though I admit he has had a decent showing in the Siege series.

 

And as I noted above, him coming back does nothing to diminish his sacrifice, considering there is a huge real world spanning religion based on a chap that did exactly that (supposedly), they could bring him back and do it in a way that could work, in fact there's been hints he's not as dead as you think for over a decade at this point.

 

Also, sanguinius coming back would in no way resolve the red thirst, those very books you noted before highlight that it was a problem during the heresy (and the FW black books imply it was problem long before). The Rage may go away, then again, it may not, should he be returned in a more metaphysical manner, they still would only have the blood from post defeat/death sanguinius to use which is highly likely to be a large part of why it happens at all.

 

The blood angels having sanguinius back in some manner, only to realise he actually cannot help them, but will strive to all the same would work just fine for a continuation of their themes.

 

The blood angels aren't striving to emulate being martyrs, they strive out of hope, that is Sanguinius' legacy both before his death and after, the blood angels have hope, despite everything, they were always monsters portrayed as angels, this hasn't changed, but they're also monsters striving to be better.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

25 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

I don’t get it? You’re saying you want Sanguinius back in 40K but you’re also not really interested in the reading the lore, don’t care about the politics or rivalries between the legions within said lore that actually make the conflicts interesting? Then why even want Sanguinius resurrected In 40K? Sanguinius has some fantastic portrayals in the Heresy and the best character arc that’s not quite had its final chapters out to page so if you actually were interested in the Character  surely you’d want to read about it? You’d probably also then see it’s also ok to leave him in 30k where he belongs, his stories already been told [Extensively and well] it’s one of self sacrifice and duty in the face of certain death 

 

Resurrecting him just ruins that! It also the destroys most of the Blood Angels lore as tragic heroes striving to emulate their martyred father in the face of the insurmountable twin curses

What is hard to understand about preferring the HH to remain a time of a myth an legend?

what is hard to understand that I don’t like primarchs being in 40K at all, but if any are going to be brought back, then they all should be.

 

why should the ultra smurfs be the only chapter to get a big center piece beat stick buffing character?

 

 

[WARMASTER_]

@Blindhamster I think we just fundamentally disagree about the impact of resurrecting him 

 

On 2/1/2023 at 6:59 PM, Blindhamster said:

The blood angels aren't striving to emulate being martyrs, they strive out of hope, that is Sanguinius' legacy both before his death and after, the blood angels have hope, despite everything, they were always monsters portrayed as angels, this hasn't changed, but they're also monsters striving to be better.

You miss understand me here though, that’s pretty much what I meant… They’re striving to be more than the curses like their martyred father, Why would they have to strive to be martyrs? pretty every marine dies in combat they’re all Martyrs of the Imperium! Dying gloriously on top of a pile of your slain enemies is THE goal 

Edited February 3, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

 

what is hard to understand that I don’t like primarchs being in 40K at all, but if any are going to be brought back, then they all should be.

 

why should the ultra smurfs be the only chapter to get a big center piece beat stick buffing character?

 

 

I mean a perfect solution would then surely be a resculpted Sangunior as a great centrepiece that could easily do the same without shattering the lore or bringing back more Primarch’s which you don’t like in the setting 

Is their also anyway we can split this thread if possible? Please and thank you 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

45 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

I mean a perfect solution would then surely be a resculpted Sangunior as a great centrepiece that could easily do the same without shattering the lore or bringing back more Primarch’s which you don’t like in the setting 

Is their also anyway we can split this thread if possible? Please and thank you 

A resculpted sanguinor doesn’t meet the criteria for the second part of my post.

the sanguinor being possessed by imperial greater demon sanguinius, doesn’t resurrect him, but still gives the BA their big powerful centerpiece model.

 

writing new lore also doesn’t shatter the lore. Most of the lore is heavily set from the unreliable narrator perspective. 
for all we know guilliman’s return is pure propaganda from the imperium. Same with living saints. Same with Dante’s achievements, which they even kinda mention in a book.

[phandaal]

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

writing new lore also doesn’t shatter the lore. Most of the lore is heavily set from the unreliable narrator perspective. 

for all we know guilliman’s return is pure propaganda from the imperium. Same with living saints. Same with Dante’s achievements, which they even kinda mention in a book.

 

40k lore is not unreliable as a whole. Individuals' perspectives can be unreliable, but we also get actual lore written into codexes and other sources.

 

Some people lean too heavily on the "unreliable narrator" thing to justify a universe with so few rules and established events that it might as well not even exist.

 

And just so my comments do not get yeeted again - everyone here is a scholar, a gentleman, and a lovely person with lovely opinions.

[beefeb]

Sanguinius coming back makes as much sense as any primarch coming back....Guilliman poisoned unto death, the Lion in eternal slumber, etc etc.  In the Master of Mankind book the Emperor told Malcador that Ferrus' spirit was intact and in the warp, and that he intended to resurrect him after the heresy.  In the recent (and excellent) Blood Angels series of books, Dante speaks extensively to the Sanguinor and it heavily hints at it being the warp essence/soul of Sanguinius, furthermore, Sanguinius' body is detailed as being perfectly intact and held in a stasis casket in the vaults under the Blood Angels fortress on Baal....its an easy step (in terms of science fiction) to have the potential from just these few hints, to have the spirit of sanguinius return to his body or some similar resurrective storyline.

 

A point that i always refer to, when this sort of thing comes up is this.  The chaos gods get power from the worship of humans/et al, and they grow bigger, stronger, more powerful.   The emperor has had virtually the entirety of mankind worshipping him for 10K years....if he follows the same pattern as the chaos gods, then he would be immeasurably powerful.....in terms of sanguinius.....on many many occasions in the official lore over the last few years there have been references to the feast of Sanguinala being a massive feast/holiday/worship of the angels sacrifice......surely then by the same lore logic, the warp essence of sanguinius would have become much more powerful over time......while warp essences have great difficulty manifesting in the real world due to the lack of a suitable physical body.....Sanguinius' original physical body is available, intact and perfectly preserved....it would surely be incredibly easy for him to manifest inside it.

 

Th lion is returning, and the way will be open for more loyalists to return....but i still hope they will be using the link of the 2nd edition angels of death book containing the Dark and Blood Angels to progress forward into a closer link between them in the current lore.   I dont think that the Lion will follow Guilliman without question....but as was shown in the second imperium, he will follow sanguinius....so Im hoping theres a link there.

[Mike8404]

1 hour ago, beefeb said:

Sanguinius coming back makes as much sense as any primarch coming back....Guilliman poisoned unto death, the Lion in eternal slumber, etc etc.  In the Master of Mankind book the Emperor told Malcador that Ferrus' spirit was intact and in the warp, and that he intended to resurrect him after the heresy.  In the recent (and excellent) Blood Angels series of books, Dante speaks extensively to the Sanguinor and it heavily hints at it being the warp essence/soul of Sanguinius, furthermore, Sanguinius' body is detailed as being perfectly intact and held in a stasis casket in the vaults under the Blood Angels fortress on Baal....its an easy step (in terms of science fiction) to have the potential from just these few hints, to have the spirit of sanguinius return to his body or some similar resurrective storyline.

 

A point that i always refer to, when this sort of thing comes up is this.  The chaos gods get power from the worship of humans/et al, and they grow bigger, stronger, more powerful.   The emperor has had virtually the entirety of mankind worshipping him for 10K years....if he follows the same pattern as the chaos gods, then he would be immeasurably powerful.....in terms of sanguinius.....on many many occasions in the official lore over the last few years there have been references to the feast of Sanguinala being a massive feast/holiday/worship of the angels sacrifice......surely then by the same lore logic, the warp essence of sanguinius would have become much more powerful over time......while warp essences have great difficulty manifesting in the real world due to the lack of a suitable physical body.....Sanguinius' original physical body is available, intact and perfectly preserved....it would surely be incredibly easy for him to manifest inside it.

 

Th lion is returning, and the way will be open for more loyalists to return....but i still hope they will be using the link of the 2nd edition angels of death book containing the Dark and Blood Angels to progress forward into a closer link between them in the current lore.   I dont think that the Lion will follow Guilliman without question....but as was shown in the second imperium, he will follow sanguinius....so Im hoping theres a link there.

That's my thinking, too.  Guilliman and The Lion both have some bad blood between them, it took Sanguineous for them to get along.  The fact that Blood Angels are the rumored 3rd refresh, to me, seems more like GW intends to either release a Sanguineous model, or set up his return sooner than later

[TrawlingCleaner]

=][= I've split this discussion from the NRBA Dark Angels thread. Once again; there are no wrong opinions, no matter how passionately you feel. Keep it on topic and play nice =][=

[Arkangilos]

On 2/1/2023 at 3:15 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

for all we know guilliman’s return is pure propaganda from the imperium. Same with living saints. Same with Dante’s achievements, which they even kinda mention in a book.

Except that it is actual lore that he came back. I mean in your home game you can pretend he didn’t come back, but that’s not consistent with the actual lore. 
 

Dante’s achievements are overblown, sure, but that doesn’t mean that his achievements didn’t happen. 
 

Guilliman came back as a matter of fact, not opinion. But Guilliman also *did not die* like Sanguinius.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Arkangilos

[WARMASTER_]

On 2/1/2023 at 9:15 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

 

writing new lore also doesn’t shatter the lore. Most of the lore is heavily set from the unreliable narrator perspective. 
for all we know guilliman’s return is pure propaganda from the imperium. Same with living saints. Same with Dante’s achievements, which they even kinda mention in a book.

Except that’s not how 40K lore works though is it? Unreliable narrators work when giving an in lore individuals account on the history of 40K or a source in lore collating reports upon a subject, just like in real life there’s good sources and bad sources, some historians pick their favourites or want to shine a better light on certain events etc 

 

but we still KNOW Guilliman is back just as much as we know Blood angels wear red power armour… there’s still certainty’s within 40K

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

49 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Except that it is actual lore that he came back. I mean in your home game you can pretend he didn’t come back, but that’s not consistent with the actual lore. 
 

Dante’s achievements are overblown, sure, but that doesn’t mean that his achievements didn’t happen. 
 

Guilliman came back as a matter of fact, not opinion. But Guilliman also *did not die* like Sanguinius.

Did he come back or is it all imperial propaganda? That’s kinda one of the big things about the game. Very little is explicitly true because every story is told by an unreliable narrator.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Did he come back or is it all imperial propaganda? That’s kinda one of the big things about the game. Very little is explicitly true because every story is told by an unreliable narrator.

That’s a very good point.  Do we KNOW that Guillman came back?  Who’s to say?  Primaris marines?  Just a rumor.  Cadia?  Still around.  Abaddon?  He’s secretly a loyalist!  Baal?  Never devoured.  Adeptus Sororitas?  Not actually as fanatical as you’d believe!  
 

Literally nothing anyone says about anything can be verified, so I guess you win the argument, inquisitor, nicely done.  

Edited February 3, 2023 by Inquisitor Eisenhorn

[Orange Knight]

The codex books are potentially transcribed from that viewpoint, but there is a timeline of certain events that has objectively transpired.

 

Guilliman is returned. That is a simple fact.

 

Imperial propaganda typically goes like this:

 

"The brave Imperial defenders liberated the world of Random Prime from the Xenos threat"

 

The reality would be more like this:

 

"Millions died in defeating the Xenos menace, but in doing so reduced the planet to a useless rock and all industrial output has been lost. On top of this the majority of the population had to be purged due to corruption, and those left alive will starve."

 

Who's to say Guilliman is back? The Humans... and the Eldar.... and the Orks, Chaos, Necrons, etc 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Orange Knight

[phandaal]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Did he come back or is it all imperial propaganda? That’s kinda one of the big things about the game. Very little is explicitly true because every story is told by an unreliable narrator.

 

Stories told from an in-universe perspective can be unreliable.

 

Lore described from outside of the universe is canon.

 

Anything else and you do not have a universe anymore. The entirety of 40k is just some kid daydreaming and staring into a snow globe.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Sanguinor, also known as the Exemplar of the Host, is a mysterious entity of unknown origin that is associated with the Blood Angels Space Marines Chapter, and has been named after Sanguinius, the Blood Angels' martyred primarch.
 

Not much is known about his origins, and what information does exist is really nothing more than speculation by the Chapter's Librarium and several Imperial scholars well-versed in the lore of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

The Sanguinor often appears during the Blood Angels' periods of greatest need, usually during a combat situation. To many among the battle-brothers of the Chapter he is no more than a myth, as few ever survive the battles where he has manifested, but the initiates of the Blood Angels' Reclusiam know differently, having kept detailed records of his manifestations down through the centuries.

 

The members of the Blood Angels' Chapter Council argue that the Sanguinor is the manifestation of Sanguinius' own better nature, his nobility that kept his darkness in check, lost to the Chapter with his death at the hands of Horus aboard the Warmaster's flagship the Vengeful Spirit during the climax of the Siege of Terra.

None know from where the Sanguinor comes, yet there are two credible possibilities put forward by the Blood Angels. The first is that the Sanguinor is the last member of the Blood Angels' Sanguinary Guard to have survived the Horus Heresy, Azkaellon, although this seems implausible, even with the long life-spans granted to Space Marines by their genetic alterations.

 

The second, and more widely accepted possibility is that when the Primarch Sanguinius was slain by Horus, his soul split in two: that half which was full of anguish, pain and doubt over his actions during the Horus Heresy became the Flaws that torture the Blood Angels to this day, while that part which was noble and righteous formed into the Sanguinor within the Immaterium.

 

Now ask yourself the most important question… would the Chapter want their Primarch to return?

[WARMASTER_]

18 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Did he come back or is it all imperial propaganda?

You can’t really think this? 

8 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

 

Now ask yourself the most important question… would the Chapter want their Primarch to return?

I’m sorry but how is that the most important question? Or are you being rhetorical? 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Why wouldn’t it be and no I’m not being rhetorical.

[Arkangilos]

2 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Why wouldn’t it be and no I’m not being rhetorical.

Well all chapters would prolly want their primarchs back, but it isn’t important because what they want wont affect what they get. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

Don't the iron hands (or a significant portion of) have quite a disdain for Ferrus? 

Apologies if my Iron Hands-fu is lacking here and I simply got that wrong.

 

But for most every other loyalist chapter, salamanders, space wolves, imperial fists, raven guard, white scars... resounding yes?

[Arkangilos]

2 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Don't the iron hands (or a significant portion of) have quite a disdain for Ferrus? 

Apologies if my Iron Hands-fu is lacking here and I simply got that wrong.

You could be right! I don’t know much about them. I thought there was a group of them that always watched hopefully for his return, though. 
 

Good question…