WH40k game Angels of Death, Returning Primarchs and the Future of 40k Theories

[Kastor Krieg]

I'd love for GW to do something courageous with Sanguinius if he is indeed to return.

 

For example, return hims as a duality - the ethereal purity of Sanguinor Exalted along with the physical monstrosity of Sanguinius Enraged, both at the same time, mirrors to the same being. Both halves loyal, but one forever detached from the material world, the other forever detached from his humanity and lost in Rage, fighting Horus (now, Abaddon), wherever and however he can.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Every fibre of my being wants Sanguinius to stay dead, if he comes back it fundamentally ruins 40k’s founding legend 

How? Nothing changes about the ‘founding legend’ what ruined that was taking away the mystery of the legend.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

GW has been busy doing this via 30k for a long time now. It used to be legend. Now we know what Sanguinius ate for breakfast on Terra, and it turns out the Primarchs are just really big people who act like people and fight real good.

Right? Like some cool stuff has come from it as I had never heard of imperium secundus before the HH series so I’m assuming that tidbit was created for the series, and that’s a very interesting a great piece of lore that was added, but it could have been added without a 50 book long series.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Right? Like some cool stuff has come from it as I had never heard of imperium secundus before the HH series so I’m assuming that tidbit was created for the series, and that’s a very interesting a great piece of lore that was added, but it could have been added without a 50 book long series.

 

Yeah. If they did it at all, it should have been a very limited run to cover major events. Davin, Calth, Terra, etc.

 

Instead they delved too greedily and too deep, and now the mystique is gone.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Yeah. If they did it at all, it should have been a very limited run to cover major events. Davin, Calth, Terra, etc.

 

Instead they delved too greedily and too deep, and now the mystique is gone.

Right? Like a collector’s lore and art book would have been able to cover new interesting material via short stories a few paragraphs to a dozen pages.

[WARMASTER_]

11 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

How? Nothing changes about the ‘founding legend’ what ruined that was taking away the mystery of the legend.

Nope, it straight up undermines the sacrifice, Resurrecting a 10k Primarch for sales and some bad story telling would cheapen the lore astronomically 

9 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Yeah. If they did it at all, it should have been a very limited run to cover major events. Davin, Calth, Terra, etc.

 

Instead they delved too greedily and too deep, and now the mystique is gone.

Couldn’t agree more with this 

Edited February 1, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[Nagashsnee]

I have bought/collected/played blood angels for over 15 years. If they ever brought Sanguinius back i would sell it all and bury 40k harder and faster then i did warhammer fantasty/aos with the end times.

 

Leave the past alone, leave the core lore alone, they need to innovate and create new content that BUILDS of the old. Not digs it up and cosplays with its corpse. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[WARMASTER_]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Right? Like some cool stuff has come from it as I had never heard of imperium secundus before the HH series so I’m assuming that tidbit was created for the series, and that’s a very interesting a great piece of lore that was added, but it could have been added without a 50 book long series.

I know we had a conversation on here a while ago where you expressed only actually caring about Primarch’s fighting and not wanting to really read any of the books in the HH series so I can see why you’d enjoy that but if lore but The Unremembered Empire is one of the most egregious books in the series, I love Dan Abnett but having 5 Primarch’s end up on one world during a Galactic spanning civil war and do a Super friends movie shrinks the universe ten fold 

 

At least to me anyway 

Edited February 1, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[Nagashsnee]

23 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

 I love Dan Abnett but having 5 Primarch’s end up on one world during a Galactic spanning civil war and do a Super friends movie shrinks the universe ten fold 

To be fair to black library, once they had Garo and co able to cross the galaxy at will, with pinpoint accuracy during the height of the heresy in terms of warp storms/warp chaos to form his super special squad. Laying aside the massive plot holes having a loyalist visit places like caliban, calth/ultramar etc directly from terra and then returning to terra this creates. It shows that travel in 30k is as hard/easy as the plot needs it to be at any given time. 

 

Then you have the Lions maguffin that also makes travel easy, the traitor of course also can travel at will because chaos (this makes sense tho). Plus any number of ´secret´ projects/gates ala path of heaven that also allow massive travel at a very reasonable cost and it kina cements it. Like the rubicon primaris warp travel is only hard/lethal to redshirts or a reason for actions scenes/plot points. 

 

And once travel becomes quick and easy then there is no reason the universe should be big. Look at earth travel before and after airplanes, might as well be different realities. 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"Resurrecting a 10k Primarch for sales and some bad story telling would cheapen the lore astronomically."

 

Thats your opinion which is fine but obviously everyone doesn’t. It could be very exciting.

[sarabando]

i for one would love some real shake up on bringing back primarchs, but i have the tism and am not normal XD. 

So bring back loyalist clone grim, and clone ferrus, headless legion of the damned ferrus, you made the system have a moving storyline well then move it. 

 

[Nagashsnee]

27 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

"Resurrecting a 10k Primarch for sales and some bad story telling would cheapen the lore astronomically."

 

Thats your opinion which is fine but obviously everyone doesn’t. It could be very exciting.

No it 100% does. Opinion will be if they do it in a good or bad way, how well thought out it is, how it meshes with the lore etc. 

 

But saying that making it so any character no matter how dead, for how long, or how important said death is can return makes death pointless. This in 40k where death is already pretty pointless cause they have a serious case of ´never kill anyone with a model´ syndrome.  Bringing back Sanguinius is opening the literal floodgates, as his death is not only iconic, affects the lore to the present but also affects the tabletop game (i.e. black rage). 

 

The moment they bring him back then EVERYONE is on the table, Horus, The Emperor, Malcador, Camba Diaz, etc.  The moment everyone can come back at any moment then death loses any actually meaning in the setting ( think dragonball Z or supernatural). Now chaos already has to pretend it cant do this to some degree after the HH betrayer showed full on resurrections are possible, but the fact that they were not long dead and it was chaos during the only time all 4 gods were working as one we can kinda work with it. You then have cases like lucius or Khârn who die and come back, but coming back much changed and with a reasonable case that what came back was not what died to be made (I.E. demonic). 

 

40k as a setting for the Imperial faction is built on death and dying. The emperors living death, sangiunius death, the aspiration built into the population that death in the service of the Emperor/Imperium means something. And in cases like the living saint who does die and come back we see its very much not what it seems ( the celistine book has her face a mountain of her own corpses from previous runs to get to the living again heavily hinting at basically imperial deamon).  The mortis cult is not A part of the imperial lore, it is one of its founding foundations, marines, sisters,guard. They all resolve around how death is the ultimate rewards for service for only in it does duty end. Dreadnoughts, bionics, rejuvenant is all geared to keeping you alive not because life is sacred and happy and nice, but because its not YOUR life. Its the Emperors and your duty ends when HE says so by letting you die.  

 

The religion, the architecture, the food ( corpse starch meme), entire worlds, sectors devoted to death, to worship of the martyrs of the cause. And who is highest in this esteem? Who got 40k x-mas/easter name after him? Who is the number 1 most popular figure of inspiration/worship in the Imperium after the Emperor according to the lore? Sanguinius the great angel.

 

You say it could be exciting, yes it could be. So would having the Emperor appear alive and well and have the custodes say ´somehow the Emperor has returned´ in a fortnight crossover.  No is saying it wont be exciting, we are saying you can do lots of exciting things that wont anger/alienate existing fans. The sanguinor is a great example of this, if you like him great, if you dont ignore him.  But  making massive changes to core faction/setting lore (not that GW will think it thru in any depth) for no real reason and to what can only be detrimental to the lore is objectively bad/lazy/greed driven story writing. 

[Blindhamster]

We got told the final events of the fight on the vengeful spirit may not go down exactly as we expect.

 

As such, if they're going to bring Sanguinius back, it'll tie into them changing things there. We'll get told that what we've known till now is the imperial propeganda, and what we see in the novel is the actual event.

 

Now, I've been playing blood angels and reading about them since I was 9... I'm 35 now, that's quite a long time.

 

I think they can do something with Sanguinius without cheapening his sacrifice. For those that are religious, we already have the messiah concept, with Jesus dying for humanities sins, and then returning later, before departing for heaven once more (and supposedly meant to return in the end too). There is an entire real world faith based on a man willingly going to his death for the sake of others and then returning.

 

Therefore, they can do it with Sanguinius without cheapening his knowing sacrifice (particularly as his own visions didn't extend past the fight with horus - his sacrifice is his sacrifice).

 

They already had Dante meet (and seemingly be revived by Sanguinius at the end of Devastation of Baal, now, it may be a fever dream, it may be something else, but it wasn't the Sanguinor that did the reviving. There's also been a lot of hints in BA lore for a long while now (more than a decade) that Sanguinius may still exist in some sense. On top of that, during some of the blood angels novels there was a scene where corbulo thinks he hears a single heartbeat whilst near Sanguinius' tomb. Again, they're all subtle hints but it does leave there as possibilities he might return either physically or psychicly.

 

For me, I would rather have Dante get some major updates in both lore and rules, and perhaps an updated Sanguinor (he should be able to go toe to toe with greater demons, even ka'bandha himself and be able to win). BUT I would be okay with them continuing to lay groundwork for Sanguinius to actually retun in 11th or something, as they've made some inroads already.

 

I half expect the horus heresy to end with Horus realising his mistake, having a road to redemption and Sanguinius killing him, but Sanguinius ending up succumbing to the rage and attacking the emperor and it being him that the Emperor has to kill and feels sorrow for. The result would be Sanguinius' final moments are full of rage and anger and hatred and confusion (sound familiar?) and we realise technically he is the cause for some of the bad stuff that later happened, but the imperial propeganda machine keeps him as a saint as he basically had been right up till the last fight. I'd feel sad in a way, but if they're going to change how those events play out, its going to be something like that, or Sanguinius being the one put on the golden throne or some other random thing.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Geedub brought back Eldrad… it happens.

 

"You then have cases like lucius or Khârn who die and come back, but coming back much changed and with a reasonable case that what came back was not what died to be made (I.E. demonic)." I’m sure geedub could come up with a reasonable explanation for Sanguinius and has been noted we don’t know how it will play out in the upcoming novel. I’d love to see the model.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Marshal Reinhard]

I think him coming back as a warp apparition is the most likely, if at all. Aka Sanguinor. Let's them sell a new cool model, but its not like Roboute and Gulliman coming back like nothing happened, instead an avenging ghost angel monster fading in and out on battlefields. 

 

Makes no difference on the tabletop, but he's not back as a 'person' and acting normally within the Imperium

[Emperor Ming]

Well we know from the psychic awakening Sanguinius soul survived

 

and the Emperor has already commenced the process of his own return so....

Its only a matter of time. 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I think him coming back as a warp apparition is the most likely, if at all. Aka Sanguinor. Let's them sell a new cool model, but its not like Roboute and Gulliman coming back like nothing happened, instead an avenging ghost angel monster fading in and out on battlefields. 

 

Makes no difference on the tabletop, but he's not back as a 'person' and acting normally within the Imperium

Sanguinius and Ferrus coming back as "Greater Daemons of the Emperor" would be so cool.

[skylerboodie]

Although I could see Sanguinius brought back by GW at some point, I think we're most likely to see all the other non-'officially-dead' Primarchs come out first (i.e. Sanguinius, Horus, Ferrus, and Curze last batch, if at all), so not a fear to be realised for a good decade or so; it's not in their business interest to rush all the Primarchs out quickly, when can do 1-2 per edition and not be out of options within 5 years.

 

I do like the Sanguinor Ascended idea, if Blood Angels need a new figurehead in the meantime.

 

Personally, my preference would still be for Sanguinius and Horus to stay dead forever as their story is told, whereas Ferrus' opportunity was woefully wasted in the Heresy series (and I just plain like Curze). Once all the sons are back though, then at that point I'd be happy for the Emperor to wake as it's no longer what we think of as 40K by that point anyway.

[Orange Knight]

Is it Mephiston who spends some time talking with a disguised Sangunius in the Warp, during the novel: "Darkness in the Blood"

 

I think he can play some role in spirit, which is why I'm not opposed to the idea of him appearing in the form of the Sanguinor from time to time.

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

Massive Blood Angels fan here. 

 

I am fairly certain that no matter what plot backflips GW/BL pull off at the end of the HH, Sanguinius will be dead by the end of it. How he dies and in what circumstances is the creative space. He simply has to, surly? all BA lore is propped up on his death?

 

Now, in 40k...

 

The Sanguinor i think is going to get juiced up. In Devastation of Baal, Dante speaks with what I belive to be Sanguinius' soul, which I think still exists in the warp. He speaks to him with the Sanguinor close by. The Great Rift happens and then in Darkness in the Blood, Mephiston speaks with Sanguinius' soul in the warp. This time, in this book, the Sanguinor has seen a power jump, being bigger and fighting warp creatures. I think the Great Rift has enabled Sanguinius to empower his herald so that now Sanguinius can fight in real space through the Sanguinor while still being dead.

[Jukkiz]

wasn´t sanguinor avatar of sanguinus anyway?  Wouldn´t it be logical if big dad used the little avatar as his real world connection?

[Orange Knight]

The Sanguinor can be re-imagined in the image of Sangunius, with comparative size and power, but simply wearing a golden mask. Perhaps the armour is empty.

 

I guess at that point he really is just a warp entity - an Imperial Daemon.

[Emperor Ming]

14 minutes ago, Jukkiz said:

wasn´t sanguinor avatar of sanguinus anyway?  Wouldn´t it be logical if big dad used the little avatar as his real world connection?

Herald of

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

I know we had a conversation on here a while ago where you expressed only actually caring about Primarch’s fighting and not wanting to really read any of the books in the HH series so I can see why you’d enjoy that but if lore but The Unremembered Empire is one of the most egregious books in the series, I love Dan Abnett but having 5 Primarch’s end up on one world during a Galactic spanning civil war and do a Super friends movie shrinks the universe ten fold 

 

At least to me anyway 

Yeah, primarchs fighting is short story material. I don’t care about the politics between chapters or the relationship each primarch has with the emperor or their brothers.

 

just because I want to read sanguinius spanking a blood thirster and angron doesn’t mean I want an entire book series about the HH.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

39 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

Massive Blood Angels fan here. 

 

I am fairly certain that no matter what plot backflips GW/BL pull off at the end of the HH, Sanguinius will be dead by the end of it. How he dies and in what circumstances is the creative space. He simply has to, surly? all BA lore is propped up on his death?

 

Now, in 40k...

 

The Sanguinor i think is going to get juiced up. In Devastation of Baal, Dante speaks with what I belive to be Sanguinius' soul, which I think still exists in the warp. He speaks to him with the Sanguinor close by. The Great Rift happens and then in Darkness in the Blood, Mephiston speaks with Sanguinius' soul in the warp. This time, in this book, the Sanguinor has seen a power jump, being bigger and fighting warp creatures. I think the Great Rift has enabled Sanguinius to empower his herald so that now Sanguinius can fight in real space through the Sanguinor while still being dead.

It might be propped up on him being dead, but him not being dead isn’t the lynchpin holding it all together.

 

we already know that when sanguinius was KO’d the 9th were temporarily hit by the rage until he awoke.

 

now if he was put into a coma in an even more traumatic way, fighting his father, that still explains the existence of the rage. Bringing him back wouldn’t have to solve the rage. His resuscitation could show that he himself now also has the rage as a form of PTSD on steroids, which is why the jekel/Hyde idea for a revived sanguinius is a result I would fully support.

there are ways they could bring him back that could be well done without pooping all over a beloved character.