Firstborn or Primaris?

[Evil Eye]

I recently bought the 4E Marine Codex with the intent of making a little 1000 point army for that edition ('cause I don't have many modelling projects...) and intend to build it using old-scale Marines. Mainly because I want to use some older character models, which are too gorgeous to pass up in spite of their slightly smaller stature, and also I find the older Marines quite charming- plus I want them to be clearly Firstborn, and truescaling the entire army (either via hacking up Firstborn minis or de-Primarising Primaris models) would be a pain.

 

I will say I like some of the Primaris models; the fluff is a bit ehhhhhhhhhh for me, but I can't bring myself to hate the Intercessors, Bladeguard or a lot of the characters for instance. And for Kill Team/INQ28/other "skirmish level" games where you can sink far more time into each model I'd definitely use them as the basis for Astartes models, even if they were reworked to be truescaled Firstborn, which is what I'm doing with a spare Firestrike Techmarine.

If I were told to make a Space Marine army for 10th of any great size (presumably at gunpoint) I'd almost certainly go predominantly Firstborn, as the introduction of Primaris has actually made me care about Space Marines...just not the ones GW wanted me to! I'd be willing to mix in some Primaris units here and there, but only ones I either sufficiently like or feel I could convert/proxy to be bearable.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I’ll still use my FB a bit, but once decent primaris DC become available I’ll be using them.

i still like tactical marines for their heavy and special weapons options.

[Malakithe]

I think a lot of Marine players are in this holding pattern to see what happens over time. Its obvious GW is only making Primaris going forward but im not going to invest into them until there is more chapter specific identity other then symbol + color....except Bladeguard. They are the best

[WARMASTER_]

6 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I think a lot of Marine players are in this holding pattern to see what happens over time. Its obvious GW is only making Primaris going forward 

I think you may have missed an announcement my friend…

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

41 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

I think you may have missed an announcement my friend…

Guess I missed that announcement too

[Kallas]

I think Warmaster is referring to the Echoes in the Warp teaser, which hints at Indomitus Terminators. But it's far from conclusive just yet, until we see any actual models/more information.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 minutes ago, Kallas said:

I think Warmaster is referring to the Echoes in the Warp teaser, which hints at Indomitus Terminators. But it's far from conclusive just yet, until we see any actual models/more information.

Yeah that’s super premature.

primaris terminators seems like a no brainer. Primaris haters will buy them, primaris fanbois will buy them, people who are indifferent will buy them, and getting primaris models into the hands of primaris haters might actually convince them to buy some other primaris kits as well. 

[WARMASTER_]

58 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Guess I missed that announcement too

The Teaser isn’t exactly Vague it’s 100% an Imdomitus Terminator and not a Primaris reimagining! Valrak is also 100% correct on all recent rumours so why would he be wrong now? Firstborn Terminators are returning I don’t see how you can argue it at this point? 

56 minutes ago, Kallas said:

I think Warmaster is referring to the Echoes in the Warp teaser, which hints at Indomitus Terminators. But it's far from conclusive just yet, until we see any actual models/more information.

Seems conclusive to me if I’m honest 

Edited March 18, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s nothing concrete to state they’ll be firstborn.

[phandaal]

56 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

The Teaser isn’t exactly Vague it’s 100% an Imdomitus Terminator and not a Primaris reimagining! Valrak is also 100% correct on all recent rumours so why would he be wrong now? Firstborn Terminators are returning I don’t see how you can argue it at this point? 

Seems conclusive to me if I’m honest 

 

No keyword means it does not matter anymore, which is great. At that point, I would not really care what flavor of Space Marine GW says is inside of the armor. "Firstborn" and "Primaris" are just terms made up by GW. Space Marines are Space Marines.

 

Now we need some upscaled Mk 7.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, WARMASTER_ said:

The Teaser isn’t exactly Vague it’s 100% an Imdomitus Terminator and not a Primaris reimagining! Valrak is also 100% correct on all recent rumours so why would he be wrong now? Firstborn Terminators are returning I don’t see how you can argue it at this point? 

Seems conclusive to me if I’m honest 

Lol it’s a terminator helmet. That’s all. The shape of a helmet does not tell us if it’s a primaris terminator or first born terminator. 

[WARMASTER_]

 

25 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Now we need some upscaled Mk 7.

I’d given up hope but with the Terminator release on the horizon and HH swapping to plastic I can now absolutely see it 

 

It would be interesting to see if we get HH legion MKVII or 40k chapter style tactical squads etc… If or when it happens that is 

10 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Lol it’s a terminator helmet. That’s all. The shape of a helmet does not tell us if it’s a primaris terminator or first born terminator. 

It’s an Indomitus Terminator… 

I don’t understand your take on this? because it’s most definitely not a new “Primaris” model design it’s a OG terminator so do you think it really matters if it gets a certain keyword or not?

Edited March 18, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

There’s nothing concrete to state they’ll be firstborn.

Which angle are you going for here? Because Model wise it’s an Indomitus Terminator and lets be honest thats all anyone who wants new Firstborn sculpts cares about

 

Not if GW decide to give them a certain keyword or not  

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

 

I’d given up hope but with the Terminator release on the horizon and HH swapping to plastic I can now absolutely see it 

 

It would be interesting to see if we get HH legion MKVII or 40k chapter style tactical squads etc… If or when it happens that is 

It’s an Indomitus Terminator…

And where has that been stated by GW? Or are you just assuming because the helmet matches?

no way cawl could copy indomitus armor and upscale it for primaris because it’s better protection than gravis.

6 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Which angle are you going for here? Because Model wise it’s an Indomitus Terminator and lets be honest thats all anyone who wants new Firstborn sculpts cares about

 

Not if GW decide to give them a certain keyword or not  

The key word is what makes a marine model a primaris or a first born…

sounds like back tracking in bound

Edited March 18, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Blindhamster]

6 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Which angle are you going for here? Because Model wise it’s an Indomitus Terminator and lets be honest thats all anyone who wants new Firstborn sculpts cares about

 

Not if GW decide to give them a certain keyword or not  

I think you’re viewing it too simply though.

 

I imagine many people that like primaris are similar to me and like them for the scale and proportions, if the new terminators have scale and proportions inline with primaris (which valrak also stated was the case) then they’re as much primaris as firstborn. At which point the only way to differentiate is the rules, if the keyword goes as rumoured, then it’s the lore, and I’d bet if it gets to that, the lore will be that both kind of marine use it.

 

I don’t like primaris because they have different designed armour (though I do personally love mkX and really like the more modern gravis kits), I like primaris because their proportions fit marines better in my mind than the old firstborn kits, similar reason to why I always loved true scale marines. I personally still don’t like the heresy Corvus set because I don’t think they fixed the biggest issues with them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

15 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Which angle are you going for here? Because Model wise it’s an Indomitus Terminator and lets be honest thats all anyone who wants new Firstborn sculpts cares about

 

Not if GW decide to give them a certain keyword or not  

 

I have posted an image here that shows a Terminator in Indomnitus armor scaled up to Primaris size… I assume this is what we will get.

 

[Kallas]

20 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I like primaris because their proportions fit marines better in my mind than the old firstborn kits

That isn't really a Primaris-unique thing though, it's mostly only Primaris because GW haven't made non-Primaris Marines other than the HH line. We've seen much better proportions on the new Guard models too; if we got upgraded Firstborn kits, they'd have better proportions too, it's not a Primaris-specific trait to be better proportioned.

 

If the new Terminators are upscaled Firstborn (and the teaser does indicate no Cawl interference, since the helmet is untouched in design, which Cawl doesn't stand for) then we can expect them to be much better proportioned like the Mk VI Tactical kit, even though they'd not be Primaris. (Again, assuming they're not, but it's not 100% confirmed either way.)

 

Edit: To add to that, we've had Castellan Crowe's resculpt, which is much better proportioned and is also definitively not Primaris (no armour changes, wargear changes, nor game mechanical changes.)

Edited March 18, 2023 by Kallas
Crowe

[WARMASTER_]

13 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And where has that been stated by GW? Or are you just assuming because the helmet matches?

no way cawl could copy indomitus armor and upscale it for primaris because it’s better protection than gravis.

The key word is what makes a marine model a primaris or a first born…

sounds like back tracking in bound

It’s not just the Helmet that matches though? It’s Literally an Indomitus terminator… You’re letting previous biases dictate your thought process. Just because GW haven’t released [Mainline] 40k Firstborn sculpts in several years doesn’t mean they can’t now? All the Evidence is pointing towards them being new sculpts of Indomitus armour where as zero visual evidence is pointing towards them being a Crawl reimagining as there’s literally nothing in the design language to suggest it 

 

22 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

sounds like back tracking in bound

They’ll be none from me… If these get a Primaris keyword or not [Which is wild speculation at this point] they’re still faithful updates of Firstborn Terminators 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 minute ago, Kallas said:

That isn't really a Primaris-unique thing though, it's mostly only Primaris because GW haven't made non-Primaris Marines other than the HH line. We've seen much better proportions on the new Guard models too; if we got upgraded Firstborn kits, they'd have better proportions too, it's not a Primaris-specific trait to be better proportioned.

 

If the new Terminators are upscaled Firstborn (and the teaser does indicate no Cawl interference, since the helmet is untouched in design, which Cawl doesn't stand for) then we can expect them to be much better proportioned like the Mk VI Tactical kit, even though they'd not be Primaris. (Again, assuming they're not, but it's not 100% confirmed either way.)

he didn't say it was a primaris unique thing. he simply stated that's why likes primaris kits.

so far GW has not shown any interest in making new kits that are in the scale of primaris marines, but aren't primaris marines for 40k.  the closest thing we've gotten to that was the BT model based on old artwork that GW said use it as FB or primaris. maybe they'll do the same with these terminators, maybe not, but the way GW has been going these new terminators will have, or will have access to the primaris keyword.

[Kallas]

5 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

he didn't say it was a primaris unique thing. he simply stated that's why likes primaris kits.

so far GW has not shown any interest in making new kits that are in the scale of primaris marines, but aren't primaris marines for 40k.  the closest thing we've gotten to that was the BT model based on old artwork that GW said use it as FB or primaris. maybe they'll do the same with these terminators, maybe not, but the way GW has been going these new terminators will have, or will have access to the primaris keyword.

I know, I was simply pointing out that the better proportions are not "Primaris" they're just "better proportions." Such as the new Guard infantry and Crowe. The further point being that new Firstborn would also benefit from the apparently new GW approach to proportions as more realistic as opposed to the previous 'Heroic scale' that Firstborn were done in before.

 

Whether the Terminators end up being Primaris or not, they will be better proportioned, even if they do end up being Firstborn - that's more my point here.

[WARMASTER_]

22 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I think you’re viewing it too simply though.

 

I imagine many people that like primaris are similar to me and like them for the scale and proportions, if the new terminators have scale and proportions inline with primaris (which valrak also stated was the case) then they’re as much primaris as firstborn. At which point the only way to differentiate is the rules, if the keyword goes as rumoured, then it’s the lore, and I’d bet if it gets to that, the lore will be that both kind of marine use it.

 

I don’t like primaris because they have different designed armour (though I do personally love mkX and really like the more modern gravis kits), I like primaris because their proportions fit marines better in my mind than the old firstborn kits, similar reason to why I always loved true scale marines. I personally still don’t like the heresy Corvus set because I don’t think they fixed the biggest issues with them.

Sorry in what way?
 

Proportions don’t solely make Primaris what they are though? where as I agree their scale is largely far superior than the older Marine sculpts they also have a different design language which these new Terminators clearly don’t have so it definitely doesn’t make them “As much Primaris as Firstborn” 

 

The new CSM’s for example have great scale and proportions compared to the older kits [Especially the Havocs which are larger than Primaris] but they retain their original design language. The scale + Proportion improvements are just a result of GW getting better at both which GW can easily just apply to the new Terminators 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

12 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Sorry in what way?
 

Proportions don’t solely make Primaris what they are though? where as I agree their scale is largely far superior than the older Marine sculpts they also have a different design language which these new Terminators clearly don’t have so it definitely doesn’t make them “As much Primaris as Firstborn” 

 

The new CSM’s for example have great scale and proportions compared to the older kits [Especially the Havocs which are larger than Primaris] but they retain their original design language. The scale + Proportion improvements are just a result of GW getting better at both which GW can easily just apply to the new Terminators 

So your argument isn’t really that they’ll be FB just that they’ll be indomitus pattern terminators in one scale or another…

Edited March 18, 2023 by Brother Tyler
unnecessary rude comment removed

[Kallas]

8 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So your argument isn’t really that they’ll be FB just that they’ll be indomitus pattern terminators in one scale or another…

Except the improved scale isn't Primaris-only.

 

We have more evidence that they'll be Firstborn Terminators (since all we've seen in the teaser image which shows an Indomitus helmet which is identical to current style Indomitus helmets) than that they'll be Primarisified; and we also know that all new GW kits are improved in their scale and proportions (Guard infantry, Primaris Marines, Castellan Crowe).

 

Simply, new models are done with far better proportions. It is not unique to Primaris. 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Brother Tyler
unnecessary rude comment (quoted from Inquisitor_Lensoven) removed

[WARMASTER_]

56 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So your argument isn’t really that they’ll be FB just that they’ll be indomitus pattern terminators in one scale or another…

No?

Edited March 18, 2023 by WARMASTER_
unnecessary rude comment (quoted from Inquisitor_Lensoven) removed

[Blindhamster]

Yeah this is the point, I didn’t say good proportions were a primaris unique thing, I said I like them because they have the good proportions, I don’t agree that the Horus heresy stuff or the chaos terminators have good proportions, in fact to me, both things have the same issues as existing stuff. New terminators like the chaos ones will be a pass from me, new terminators with proportions like primaris (indomitus or otherwise) will be a purchase.

 

currently the only none primaris with proportions I liked, was indeed Crowe kallas, and he actually has a number of design things that are very like primaris too (abdomen and ankles in particular). If they released a mk7 kit that had the same proportions and size as the mkX, I’d love them. 
 

the issue is, people are arguing from different angles, I don’t hate firstborn, I do dislike current firstborn models. I don’t see the point in hating a concept in the setting.
 

Warmaster, the point on them being as much primaris is, if the lore says primaris use them too, then they’re as much primaris as firstborn. Ultimately I think GW are looking to reduce the distinction over time, and the entire point is moot.

 

I suspect the thing that’s different is that people that like primaris will also like other marines if they’re proportioned the same. Whilst people that don’t like primaris, just don’t like primaris for reasons, reasonable and unreasonable from person to person. It’s all just opinions. 
 

I think valraks rumours of the keyword going will be true, I also think valraks rumours that new indomitus terminators will be made to look right beside primaris marines will be true. I think the likely hood of that is that the lore for them will be both kinds or marines will use them.

 

I also have a feeling that the new veteran unit in the new boxed set will have parts that are nods to firstborn, just makes sense if the other two rumours from valrak turn out to be accurate

Edited March 18, 2023 by Blindhamster
Elaboration