Firstborn or Primaris?

[Blindhamster]

P.s. to reiterate, we don’t know that they’re firstborn, we know they’re likely indomitus, which isn’t the same thing, no matter how many times it gets suggested. Similarly, we don’t know they’re primaris, we know that new 40k specific kits have generally been when it comes to space marines, but that means nothing (jon snow)

[phandaal]

8 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

P.s. to reiterate, we don’t know that they’re firstborn, we know they’re likely indomitus, which isn’t the same thing, no matter how many times it gets suggested. Similarly, we don’t know they’re primaris, we know that new 40k specific kits have generally been when it comes to space marines, but that means nothing (jon snow)

 

All of this back-and-forth just reiterates why removing the keyword while updating the classic sculpts is the best way forward. At that point, GW can easily go "everyone is a Primaris Marine now." The lore distinction is there, but the gameplay distinction is not.

 

If someone wants their models to be the biggest and strongest in the lore, they can have that. If someone wants to ignore that and enjoy their classic games, they can do that too.

[Blindhamster]

I don’t personally think all firstborn units should be kept/updated, but I also don’t think all primaris units should be kept either, so I sort of agree (but not entirely) lol

[WrathOfTheLion]

There's a few sculpts that are not great in either, looking at Suppressors and Centurions in particular. With the fling and see what sticks approach they've done, I think it's inevitable a few of the newer unit entries will get ironed out as they refine a stronger lineup.

[Orange Knight]

Suppressors are such a strange unit.

 

I think a bigger squad with different flight stands and different weapons could look quite good. I would rather they were touching a rock like the new Dante instead of using the clear supports.

 

It's strange that we haven't seen a full multipart kit at this point.

 

I think the Suppressors need an update, as do the Outriders. A bigger squad of bikers with additional options would be most welcome.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Outriders need a bigger squad to make them feasible for Dark Angels Ravenwing over the firstborn bikers. It will be an interesting problem for them to solve, as I expect next edition they will want them able to be ported to newer sculpts.

 

Right now for Unforgiven, you can't really play Primaris Deathwing/Ravenwing, so there's a lot of sales to be had by them if they rectify that.

 

Hopefully like what seems to be the case for terminators, they straight update various units so your old sculpts are still valid.

Edited March 19, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Chapter Master Valrak]

19 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

 

 

We know:

• Valraks rumours suggest the keyword will infact go (may or may not be right, simply what he has said)
• Valraks rumours say the terminators look like indomitus armour (clearly verified via the new teaser)
• Valraks rumours say they're bigger and chunkier to look right next to primaris (which suggests they're bigger than the chaos ones, because those don't look right next to primaris)
• Valrak assumed (but stated he doesn't know) that it might say both types use the armour, because that seemed cool to him.

We will see I guess.

 

 

So when it comes to the keyword, this is what was spoken about via testing, of course nothing in final when it comes to it, I actually think they will bring back the keyword ‘bulky’, basically whatever a Terminator can get into, so can a Primaris :)

[Khornestar]

36 minutes ago, Chapter Master Valrak said:

So when it comes to the keyword, this is what was spoken about via testing, of course nothing in final when it comes to it, I actually think they will bring back the keyword ‘bulky’, basically whatever a Terminator can get into, so can a Primaris :)

Urge to land raid with primaris intensifies.

[Chapter Master Valrak]

56 minutes ago, Khornestar said:

Urge to land raid with primaris intensifies.

 

There is a reason why I am doing Black Templar army with Bladeguard and Landraiders 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sharpen up the trusty ole wooden spoon Captain !

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Chapter Master Valrak said:

So when it comes to the keyword, this is what was spoken about via testing, of course nothing in final when it comes to it, I actually think they will bring back the keyword ‘bulky’, basically whatever a Terminator can get into, so can a Primaris :)

Would that be just tacticus primaris or would gravis also fit?

[Blindhamster]

Tacticus really shouldn’t be treated as bulky, they get absolutely nothing to justify it anymore (when they had more wounds, you could kinda justify it)

 

terminators and gravis using up similar space is more logical 

[spessmarine]

18 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Tacticus really shouldn’t be treated as bulky, they get absolutely nothing to justify it anymore (when they had more wounds, you could kinda justify it)

 

terminators and gravis using up similar space is more logical 

makes it funny because that means 3 intercessors take up as much space as 2 centurions

[WrathOfTheLion]

I would love to just use Rhinos for assault intercessors and all as well.

 

Would be really cool for my Lamenters, which are all Primaris, to have Deimos rhinos for a bit of Badab aesthetic like I do for Red Corsairs.

[Blindhamster]

So, sure enough they are scaled to primaris and will dwarf firstborn models whilst being a faithful update or the classic unit and lore wise can be either. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

With them lorewise being both, even if the keyword doesn't go away (it still might), there would have to be rules to give them the keyword or not in that case, meaning its a probably a safe bet they can ride in whatever they fancy.

[Castellan Wulfrik]

An updated 'firstborn' range is inevitable, 30K will almost certainly evolve into a scouring/historical version of 40K that can be used to represent anything up to the current 41K setting. This way they can keep everyone satisfied. It will take a long time for it to happen completely, but GW aren't going anywhere fast and neither is their desire to make new marine kits to sell to people. The terminators are just the first step towards this. The idea that once the primaris range is filled out that GW will just take a break from releasing marines is laughable, gotta keep milking that cow. Expanding 30K also would allow them to start selling additional rule books and expansions to collectors of other factions and open up those model ranges to people who exclusively play the 30K ruleset. 

We've already seen this happen with AoS, the new Seraphon are a perfect example where they're basically a dual Old World Fantasy / Age of Sigmar kit. They can be built as traditional lizardmen models or the new celestial style. The new human models shown for AoS also look suspiciously traditional and Old World in design elements and wouldn't look out of place in either setting. Recently a very large portion of the AoS releases, perhaps even a majority, have been compatible with the Old World. If players already have some models compatible with the other game system they're more likely to invest further to make a playable force. A semi-compatible kit roster for 30K/40K  is the most optimal design for selling the most amount of models. 

TLDR: Why sell one range of space marines to people when you can sell them two? 

[WARMASTER_]

17 hours ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

An updated 'firstborn' range is inevitable, 30K will almost certainly evolve into a scouring/historical version of 40K that can be used to represent anything up to the current 41K setting. This way they can keep everyone satisfied. It will take a long time for it to happen completely, but GW aren't going anywhere fast and neither is their desire to make new marine kits to sell to people. The terminators are just the first step towards this. The idea that once the primaris range is filled out that GW will just take a break from releasing marines is laughable, gotta keep milking that cow. Expanding 30K also would allow them to start selling additional rule books and expansions to collectors of other factions and open up those model ranges to people who exclusively play the 30K ruleset. 

We've already seen this happen with AoS, the new Seraphon are a perfect example where they're basically a dual Old World Fantasy / Age of Sigmar kit. They can be built as traditional lizardmen models or the new celestial style. The new human models shown for AoS also look suspiciously traditional and Old World in design elements and wouldn't look out of place in either setting. Recently a very large portion of the AoS releases, perhaps even a majority, have been compatible with the Old World. If players already have some models compatible with the other game system they're more likely to invest further to make a playable force. A semi-compatible kit roster for 30K/40K  is the most optimal design for selling the most amount of models. 

TLDR: Why sell one range of space marines to people when you can sell them two? 

Couldn’t agree more with this! Not remaking the firstborn kits is just money on the table and GW more than most company’s have a player base that’s been invested for decades and will buy the older kits, It’s also an easy product for GW to make in terms of product design cost with almost no risk…

[WrathOfTheLion]

Given the possibilities we're hearing of them integrating the two a lot better, they may be more comfortable doing event models, etc. in MK VII armor, as I think those would be quite lucrative. Event models in Terminator armor I think are really likely to start popping up in the near term though.

[Orange Knight]

GW doesn't need to remake all the kits.

 

We're getting Primaris Veterans (these could cover and serve as an update to quite a few units)

We still need units with jump packs and Scouts, and both are apparently coming.

 

I guess you could allow Intercessors to take special weapons? Primaris Tactical Marines? I don't think this is needed, especially in the next edition which might not be troop heavy - this remains to be seen however. We have to mindful of other armies not being as well supposed whilst we ask for a 7th troop unit to be made for the Marines.

 

We're getting Terminators, Veterans, and eventually Jump Pack Marines. Everything else is already covered. I would rather GW start to turn their gaze to making more chapter specific characters and units. The Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Wolves have key units in wait to cross the Rubicon.

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

GW doesn't need to remake all the kits.

And they don't need to make Primaris kits covered by Firstborn units...but here we are. Since Firstborn are allegedly staying, then I'd very much like new, improved sculpts.

[Orange Knight]

15 minutes ago, Kallas said:

And they don't need to make Primaris kits covered by Firstborn units...but here we are. Since Firstborn are allegedly staying, then I'd very much like new, improved sculpts.

 

They kind of are. See that new Terminator that is scaled to Primaris and can be a Primaris? 

 

He can also be "Firstborn" wink wink, nudge nudge. Why you would want for the pilot to be Firstborn isn't exactly clear to me. If you have the model and like how it looks, then embrace the superior marine that could be inside.

[Kallas]

6 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

then embrace the superior marine that could be inside.

Hard pass 

[WARMASTER_]

8 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

GW doesn't need to remake all the kits.

 

We're getting Primaris Veterans (these could cover and serve as an update to quite a few units)

We still need units with jump packs and Scouts, and both are apparently coming.

 

I guess you could allow Intercessors to take special weapons? Primaris Tactical Marines? I don't think this is needed, especially in the next edition which might not be troop heavy - this remains to be seen however. We have to mindful of other armies not being as well supposed whilst we ask for a 7th troop unit to be made for the Marines.

 

We're getting Terminators, Veterans, and eventually Jump Pack Marines. Everything else is already covered. I would rather GW start to turn their gaze to making more chapter specific characters and units. The Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Wolves have key units in wait to cross the Rubicon.

Besides the point that unit redundancy means almost nothing to GW [Just look at how bloated the Primaris range has become] I think the point you’re missing here is that this debate to most gamers has never been about in game functionality or rules, most gamers in my experience [Including myself] prefer the aesthetics + lore of Firstborn 

 

So while no, GW doesn’t “need” to remake all of the MKVII kits it’s also money left on the table as there’s definitely a large portion of the player base who’ll buy them over a new Primaris kit [Especially the absolute stinkers like the Desolation squad] 

[WARMASTER_]

9 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

They kind of are. See that new Terminator that is scaled to Primaris and can be a Primaris? 

 

He can also be "Firstborn" wink wink, nudge nudge. Why you would want for the pilot to be Firstborn isn't exactly clear to me. If you have the model and like how it looks, then embrace the superior marine that could be inside.

Really? GW said themselves “These aren’t Primaris Terminators + Cawl couldn’t improve the design” it’s pretty clear at no point in the model design process we’re these designed as Primaris Terminators! GW have tact on that Primaris can wear the armour afterwards so players with all Primaris army’s or Chapters will also have a reason to buy the kits! these aren’t “Primaris scale” they’re just now scaled appropriately to their in lore size 

Edited March 27, 2023 by WARMASTER_