Firstborn or Primaris?

[Kallas]

8 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Crowe [...] actually has a number of design things that are very like primaris too (abdomen and ankles in particular)

Torso is just Mk8 upgrades. Ankles are Primaris-ish (Primarish?).

Otherwise it's distinctly Firstborn: backpack, shoulder pads, legs, arms - it's all Mk8 Firstborn, just better proportioned.

 

11 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

If they released a mk7 kit that had the same proportions and size as the mkX, I’d love them. 

Agreed.

 

11 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

the issue is, people are arguing from different angles, I don’t hate firstborn, I do dislike current firstborn models. I don’t see the point in hating a concept in the setting.

I have my issues with the lore and mechanics of Primaris but that's getting off topic. Yes, modelwise Firstborn are dated and the older proportions definitely lack the impact of new sculpts, including Primaris, which is where I think quite a few of us who prefer Firstborn aesthetics have the issue, which is that, regardless of preference for Primaris/Primaris design, we would have loved updated Firstborn kits in the new scale/proportions but instead got Primaris which some of us generally dislike for a variety of reasons (modelwise and other).

 

Anyway. If the new Terminators end up being true to the current Firstborn Indomitus Terminators but upgraded to the new scaling, then I doubt anyone would be unhappy with them except for those who specifically want Firstborn to be gone and only want Primaris aesthetics.

[Blindhamster]

Despite some of our disagreements in the past (which I suspect were often caused by the inadequacies of text based communication), I think you and I are actually on a fairly similar page kallas, only difference is that I’m equally happy with firstborn or primaris so long as the scale and proportions are the same :) 

 

p.s abdomen of Crowe is distinctly mkx, mk8 has a grill design as a single solid piece with basically venting slots in it, the segmented plates with obvious ribbing of the undersuit is something distinctly mkx currently, but for the most part I agree that it generally follows the design of mk8 (but then, mkx is basically a cross between mk4 and mk8, the two canon most advanced suits), shoulder pads are literally the same between 7,8 and x, legs are more like the primaris single section variants (like the victrix guard), mk8 has a distinct knee like mk7. Ultimately, grey knights don’t wear armour that truly follows any of the official mks though, it’s better in lore than any of them.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, WARMASTER_ said:

It’s not just the Helmet that matches though? It’s Literally an Indomitus terminator… You’re letting previous biases dictate your thought process. Just because GW haven’t released [Mainline] 40k Firstborn sculpts in several years doesn’t mean they can’t now? All the Evidence is pointing towards them being new sculpts of Indomitus armour where as zero visual evidence is pointing towards them being a Crawl reimagining as there’s literally nothing in the design language to suggest it 

 

They’ll be none from me… If these get a Primaris keyword or not [Which is wild speculation at this point] they’re still faithful updates of Firstborn Terminators 

there's the back track. you said they'd be first born terminators. now you're back tracking to 'faithful adaptations' of first born terminators. you've already said that you don't care what the key word is as long as they look like classic terminators.

you make up random arguments to support your position. no one here is saying that they're 'cawl's reimagining', not to mention we've seen a head, so we haven't even seen enough of the new terminators to support that there's no cawl-ian design traits in the new models. you're literally making all of these statements based off of a picture of a helmet. for all you know the new terminators could have a boltstorm gauntlet on one arm.

stop making things up to support your beliefs.

[Blindhamster]

lets be fair though, based on the image of the helm, its unlikely to fall far from current indomitus design, which is totally fine and cool, so long as it has better proportions than any existing terminators (except custodes ones, which are good), thats all I personally want lol

Edited March 18, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

lets be fair though, based on the image of the helm, its unlikely to fall far from current indomitus design, which is totally fine and cool, so long as it has better proportions than any existing terminators (except custodes ones, which are good), thats all I personally want lol

ya that's fine, the helmet looks like the current model design, no one is arguing that. i'm just sick of people who are intellectually dishonest and arguing just for the sake of arguing 

[WARMASTER_]

46 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

there's the back track. you said they'd be first born terminators. now you're back tracking to 'faithful adaptations' of first born terminators. you've already said that you don't care what the key word is as long as they look like classic terminators.

you make up random arguments to support your position. no one here is saying that they're 'cawl's reimagining', not to mention we've seen a head, so we haven't even seen enough of the new terminators to support that there's no cawl-ian design traits in the new models. you're literally making all of these statements based off of a picture of a helmet. for all you know the new terminators could have a boltstorm gauntlet on one arm.

stop making things up to support your beliefs.

Sorry what? That’s simply incorrect… At no point have I used the word “adaptation” I’ve repeatedly said that these will just be Indomitus Terminators and haven’t backtracked at all! what I’ve stated, again repeatedly since the start of the debate is no matter the keyword GW uses we can clearly see these aren’t new Primaris Terminator Sculpts but Faithful Updates of Indomitus Terminators [which I mean to say new sculpts of the OG unit, you’re being purposely obtuse here]

 

We’ve also seen way more than a helmet we’ve seen the entire upper torso and shoulder pads 

 

I’m honestly confused by the point you’re debating here? because you’re cheery picking from my responses at random or changing my phrasing to infer different meaning 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[Blindhamster]

I think the point being made, is you're ascribing a design to primaris, whereas in actual fact, primaris are the people inside the armour. Ergo, if it matches the scale of primaris (head at about the same place as a primaris marine, scaled to look bigger than an intercessor, much like gravis marines do), then it's more than reasonable to say its as much a primaris marine as it is a firstborn, particularly if the keyword is going and there's no rules distinction between them, because then, literally the defining point will be the lore.

 

because mkX is a suit of armour, indomitus terminator armour is a suit of armour, not the marine inside it. mkX isn't primaris, mkX is mkX, it's only seen on primaris because it was designed for larger marines. We do know that terminator armour in particular is capable of being adapted for larger marines in lore already.

 

If however, they're just the scale of current chaos terminators, and therefore shorter than primaris marines, likely with janky anatomy much like the chaos terminators and all other current terminators that arent custodes, then yeah clearly a primaris marine can't fit inside and the lore will likely not mention them doing so, even if the keyword goes.

 

Ultimately that's the point, if the keyword goes, the only difference between primaris and firstborn will be the scale and lore, because rule wise they'll be one and the same.

 

We know:

• Valraks rumours suggest the keyword will infact go (may or may not be right, simply what he has said)
• Valraks rumours say the terminators look like indomitus armour (clearly verified via the new teaser)
• Valraks rumours say they're bigger and chunkier to look right next to primaris (which suggests they're bigger than the chaos ones, because those don't look right next to primaris)
• Valrak assumed (but stated he doesn't know) that it might say both types use the armour, because that seemed cool to him.

We will see I guess.

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

53 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Sorry what? That’s simply incorrect… At no point have I used the word “adaptation” I’ve repeatedly said that these will just be Indomitus Terminators and haven’t backtracked at all! what I’ve stated, again repeatedly since the start of the debate is no matter the keyword GW uses we can clearly see these aren’t new Primaris Terminator Sculpts but Faithful Updates of Indomitus Terminators [which I mean to say new sculpts of the OG unit, you’re being purposely obtuse here]

 

We’ve also seen way more than a helmet we’ve seen the entire upper torso and shoulder pads 

 

I’m honestly confused by the point you’re debating here? because you’re cheery picking from my responses at random or changing my phrasing to infer different meaning 

 

Nobody has said they’d be new sculpts.

you keep arguing against points no one has said, meanwhile making assertions with nothing to support them.

 

if GW says they’re primaris, they’re primaris. Why is the idea of them being primaris so triggering?

[Kallas]

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

you keep arguing against points no one has said, meanwhile making assertions with nothing to support them.

Pot. Kettle.

 

As has been shown, there is more evidence that they'll be Firstborn than that they'll be Primaris, since the images we've seen have the armour as identical to the current Indomitus. That doesn't make it 100% certain, but it's more evidence than saying they'll be Primaris.

 

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

if GW says they’re primaris, they’re primaris. Why is the idea of them being primaris so triggering?

If GW says they're Firstborn, they're Firstborn. Why is the idea of them being Firstborn so triggering?

 

You didn't ask me, but for me I don't want them to be Primaris because, well, Primaris have designs I don't like (eg, some of the tacticool elements of Phobos, some of the frumpy aspects of Gravis, some of the inconsistency of sleek armour (eg, MkX Tacticus) but boxy low-tech gear (eg, Heavy Stubbers, which were always not an Astartes weapon because they had the best gear, not the low-tech stuff)) and the lore is objectionable to me. Firstborn have decades of lore that, while not always the best writing, is what is intrinsically part of the setting: Primaris up-ended a lot of lore for no particularly good reason beyond selling some new models.

 

Thing is, people can want them either way, the main problem is when someone wants the other ones' stuff gone. If these end up being Firstborn, does this in some way hurt Primaris-only players? If Marines are meant to have two core identities (Firstborn and Primaris), and they're intended to be compatible and not one replacing the other (which is something GW originally said when they released Primaris) then surely releasing new Firstborn kits isn't a problem much like how new Primaris kits isn't a problem.

[Blindhamster]

if the keyword goes, are they primaris or firstborn? If you say your terminators are primaris and I say mine are firstborn, both are right, as there's literally zero evidence to the contrary (incidentally, the same will be true of intercessors or devastators), because again I reiterate the fact that the marines are primaris, not the gear they use.

 

note: this isn't aimed at a single person, more a point that people are arguing over something that will very likely be moot in a few months if Valraks track record for all these rumours continues as it has been

 

p.s. you can bet your rear end that if the keyword goes, I'd probably use some of my spare bits to make a squad of sternguard or vanguard using primaris bits lol,

Edited March 18, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

46 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Pot. Kettle.

 

As has been shown, there is more evidence that they'll be Firstborn than that they'll be Primaris, since the images we've seen have the armour as identical to the current Indomitus. That doesn't make it 100% certain, but it's more evidence than saying they'll be Primaris.

 

If GW says they're Firstborn, they're Firstborn. Why is the idea of them being Firstborn so triggering?

 

You didn't ask me, but for me I don't want them to be Primaris because, well, Primaris have designs I don't like (eg, some of the tacticool elements of Phobos, some of the frumpy aspects of Gravis, some of the inconsistency of sleek armour (eg, MkX Tacticus) but boxy low-tech gear (eg, Heavy Stubbers, which were always not an Astartes weapon because they had the best gear, not the low-tech stuff)) and the lore is objectionable to me. Firstborn have decades of lore that, while not always the best writing, is what is intrinsically part of the setting: Primaris up-ended a lot of lore for no particularly good reason beyond selling some new models.

 

Thing is, people can want them either way, the main problem is when someone wants the other ones' stuff gone. If these end up being Firstborn, does this in some way hurt Primaris-only players? If Marines are meant to have two core identities (Firstborn and Primaris), and they're intended to be compatible and not one replacing the other (which is something GW originally said when they released Primaris) then surely releasing new Firstborn kits isn't a problem much like how new Primaris kits isn't a problem.

What evidence is there that they’re going to be FB exactly? Because GW  wants to cash in on the love for indomitus pattern TDA?

 

id say the fact there hasn’t been a FB kit in what? Roughly a decade means they’re very unlikely to be FB regardless of what they look like. 
 

now maybe the valrak rumors will come true as blindhamster has mentioned and the keyword goes away, and it doesn’t matter at all.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

here's an example.

looks like a rolls royce, but it's a chrysler. what it is intended to look like, in order to make money, is irrelevant to what it really is.

https://www.hotcars.com/this-chrysler-300-obnoxiously-wants-to-be-a-rolls-royce/

[Bryan Blaire]

47 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

here's an example.

looks like a rolls royce, but it's a chrysler. what it is intended to look like, in order to make money, is irrelevant to what it really is.

https://www.hotcars.com/this-chrysler-300-obnoxiously-wants-to-be-a-rolls-royce/

You do realize that the only ways your posted analogy works would be with standard Marine models still being sold being given True-Scaling body work, and custom weapons that look more like bolt rifles, but still functionally perform as bolters/bolt guns, and then someone calling them/using them as Primaris, right?  Alternatively, someone taking Primaris models, and then performing de-scaling work to give them the proportions of the classic Astartes model line, and cutting up the Primaris weapons to more closely resemble the weapons used by those classic Marine models.  It definitely does not work if your argument is about something officially produced by the manufacturer to resemble something produced by the manufacturer - that would be like a Chevy Camaro produced with body styling to very close in appearance to a Corvette, not aftermarket conversion.

 

Because if all these new TDA are is Indomitus with armor stretcher plates in it to fit Primaris (which was already done to allow TDA to fit oversized standard pattern Astartes), then they absolutely are not your “after-market conversions to look like something they aren’t”, they are the original thing just modified up.

 

If they are instead suits of Gravis that incorporate enough original TDA armor into them to look like TDA, but are just modified Gravis, then they are instead some kind of weird middle ground, but they don’t fit the concept of what you posted.

 

We will probably know more soon.

[Blindhamster]

Again to the point though, they’d be no more firstborn than primaris, if primaris also use it. Because primaris are the type of astartes in the suit, not the suit itself.

 

which I assume (hope) is the point the inquisitor is making.

 

I don’t think anyone can argue it looks to be indomitus, I don’t think anyone can argue that indomitus can be modified to fit larger marines, I don’t think anyone can argue that indomitus has been around as long as space marines (it’s specifically pre heresy armour, even though forgeworld would love for you to just buy their expensive options). Indomitus isn’t firstborn, because firstborn are just a type of marine inside the suit. 
 

Assuming the valrak rumours are true, it looks likely they’ll look more at home alongside mkx from a scale perspective, and hopefully the whole “is it primaris” will stop being a thing because there will be no keyword and the difference will be relegated to lore, if it even keeps getting acknowledged there

[Blindhamster]

Honestly, I’m hoping more and more the distinction is dropped, though I don’t know that it’ll stop the fighting of the fans even though I really want it to lol.

 

we should all be brothers, brothers!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

23 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

You do realize that the only ways your posted analogy works would be with standard Marine models still being sold being given True-Scaling body work, and custom weapons that look more like bolt rifles, but still functionally perform as bolters/bolt guns, and then someone calling them/using them as Primaris, right?  Alternatively, someone taking Primaris models, and then performing de-scaling work to give them the proportions of the classic Astartes model line, and cutting up the Primaris weapons to more closely resemble the weapons used by those classic Marine models.  It definitely does not work if your argument is about something officially produced by the manufacturer to resemble something produced by the manufacturer - that would be like a Chevy Camaro produced with body styling to very close in appearance to a Corvette, not aftermarket conversion.

 

Because if all these new TDA are is Indomitus with armor stretcher plates in it to fit Primaris (which was already done to allow TDA to fit oversized standard pattern Astartes), then they absolutely are not your “after-market conversions to look like something they aren’t”, they are the original thing just modified up.

 

If they are instead suits of Gravis that incorporate enough original TDA armor into them to look like TDA, but are just modified Gravis, then they are instead some kind of weird middle ground, but they don’t fit the concept of what you posted.

 

We will probably know more soon.

No for my analogy to work they just need to put indomitus style terminator armor on a primaris marine.

[Bryan Blaire]

12 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

No for my analogy to work they just need to put indomitus style terminator armor on a primaris marine.

 

Uhhhh… I think you need to read the article you posted, because it’s all about after-market conversion of a car (which for the analogy would be the suit of armor).  Nothing is about the stock company selling anything and it doesn’t have a single thing to do with the person driving it.  Your analogy would actually work if the article was about “Driving in this Rolls Royce instantly makes you rich!” or “Anyone driving this aftermarket modified Chrysler instantly becomes poor!” or something like that.  Then it would a comparison based on somewhat equivalent elements.

 

Putting TDA armor on a Primaris Marine doesn’t make the armor Primaris, nor does it make the Marine a standard pattern Marine.

 

If Phobos, Tacticus, or Gravis armor was put on by a standard pattern Marine, it wouldn’t instantly make the Marine Primaris either.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Orange Knight]

Azrael wears a MkVII Helmet even though he crossed the Rubicon.

 

There is a Black Templar Castellan in what looks like MkV armour that is Primaris.

 

In general the Primaris are too far ingrained in the current plot and universe, and they continue to be the focus of dozens of novels - the main focus of 40k Astartes going forward with all the iconic characters crossing the Rubicon when they get updated (with the exception of the Grey Knights).

 

I expect these Terminators will look almost identical to the traditional Indomitus pattern, but the lore will clarify that they are piloted by Primaris.

 

Remember that a Primaris isn't defined by the suit of armour - They are an improved breed of super soldier inside the suit.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

40 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Azrael wears a MkVII Helmet even though he crossed the Rubicon.

 

There is a Black Templar Castellan in what looks like MkV armour that is Primaris.

 

In general the Primaris are too far ingrained in the current plot and universe, and they continue to be the focus of dozens of novels - in general the main focus of 40k Astartes going forward with all the iconic characters crossing the Rubicon when they get updated (with the exception of the Grey Knights).

 

I expect these Terminators will look almost identical to the traditional Indomitus pattern, but the lore will clarify that they are piloted by Primaris.

 

Remember that a Primaris isn't defined by the suit of armour - They are an improved breed of super soldier inside the suit.

I don’t know why this concept is so hard to understand.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

48 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

 

Uhhhh… I think you need to read the article you posted, because it’s all about after-market conversion of a car (which for the analogy would be the suit of armor).  Nothing is about the stock company selling anything and it doesn’t have a single thing to do with the person driving it.  Your analogy would actually work if the article was about “Driving in this Rolls Royce instantly makes you rich!” or “Anyone driving this aftermarket modified Chrysler instantly becomes poor!” or something like that.  Then it would a comparison based on somewhat equivalent elements.

 

Putting TDA armor on a Primaris Marine doesn’t make the armor Primaris, nor does it make the Marine a standard pattern Marine.

 

If Phobos, Tacticus, or Gravis armor was put on by a standard pattern Marine, it wouldn’t instantly make the Marine Primaris either.

In this analogy the body of the car is the armor, and the actual systems, like engine, shocks, etc are the marine.

 

the armor is after market upgrade kit, the marine is the thing the aftermarket upgrade kit goes onto.

 

in both cases outward appearance doesn’t change what the thing actually is.

 

armor is armor, there’s no such thing as primaris armor. There are primaris marines, and there is armor.

 

No one is arguing what pattern or type of armor is featured, the argument is will it be a FB marine or a primaris marine inside of the armor.

people keep claiming there’s evidence it will be FB yet they provide absolutely no evidence to support that assertion.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Bryan Blaire]

8 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

In this analogy the body of the car is the armor, and the actual systems, like engine, shocks, etc are the marine.

 

the armor is after market upgrade kit, the marine is the thing the aftermarket upgrade kit goes onto.

 

in both cases outward appearance doesn’t change what the thing actually is.

 

armor is armor, there’s no such thing as primaris armor. There are primaris marines, and there is armor.

 

No one is arguing what pattern or type of armor is featured, the argument is will it be a FB marine or a primaris marine inside of the armor.

people keep claiming there’s evidence it will be FB yet they provide absolutely no evidence to support that assertion.

  Yeah, there’s no discussion to be had with that kind of erroneous thought… 

 

I haven’t seen either side provide any factual evidence of what Marine will be inside the armor - you know, a fact, like presenting a written piece of information from GW, who is the only entity at this point that likely has that information.

 

Both sides keep claiming there’s evidence about the pilot of the suit, and neither side has provided any factual evidence - speculation based on past practice isn’t evidence.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 minute ago, Bryan Blaire said:

  Yeah, there’s no discussing with that kind of erroneous…

 

I haven’t seen either side provide any factual evidence of what Marine will be inside the armor - you know, a fact, like presenting a written piece of information from GW, who is the only entity at this point that likely has that information.

 

Both sides keep claiming there’s evidence about the pilot of the suit, and neither side has provided any factual evidence - speculation based on past practice isn’t evidence.

The primaris side has not claimed evidence but has only claimed patterns indicate primaris, which is true.

 

so one side has patterns of behavior, the other side has “well it looks the same”.

people and businesses both tend to operate in a way that establishes patterns, and those patterns are rarely broken or interrupted without some sort of outside influence. I have seen no such influence on GW to indicate a change or departure from their recent patterns of the last 8ish years.

[WrathOfTheLion]

It could be one or the other, or preferably a mix of both inside the armor. If they give us some nice, properly scaled Indomitus armor, frankly I don't understand why anyone cares what Space Marine is inside of it, as long as they don't say Hydra Dominatus when nobody is looking.

[Bryan Blaire]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The primaris side has not claimed evidence but has only claimed patterns indicate primaris, which is true.

 

so one side has patterns of behavior, the other side has “well it looks the same”.

people and businesses both tend to operate in a way that establishes patterns, and those patterns are rarely broken or interrupted without some sort of outside influence. I have seen no such influence on GW to indicate a change or departure from their recent patterns of the last 8ish years.

So your argument is that you haven’t made an argument, only the other side has?

 

You, Inquisitor_Lensoven, have specifically used the phrase “Primaris Terminator” or “Firstborn Terminator” in this specific discussion thread - indicating that you had, contrary to your quoted information you stated above, believed that there is “Primaris Armor” - because Terminator is a type of armor, not a type of Marine, and at no point, until others started making the argument for you, did you specify that the distinction for you was “a Primaris piloting Indomitus Terminator armor” or “a standard Astartes piloting Indomitus Terminator armor”.  So let’s not be - how did you put it - “intellectually dishonest” in what argument was being made by you…

 

That the other side was also conflating the idea of the Marine inside with the armor identity does not matter a whit - it is also a bad argument.

 

The Marine’s armor is not the “aftermarket appearance package” specifically because it has the ability to enhance the user (driver)’s capabilities beyond what they could do if they were simply nude - in other words, the entire vehicle is the armor, because it enhances the driver’s capabilities beyond what they can due simply nude.

 

@WrathOfTheLion Absolutely.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Bryan Blaire
Removed overly critical comments about the poster, left those about the specific comments being made - that shouldn’t have happened and I apologize

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

So your argument is that you haven’t made an argument, only the other side has?

 

You, Inquisitor_Lensoven, have specifically used the phrase “Primaris Terminator” or “Firstborn Terminator” in this specific discussion thread - indicating that you had, contrary to your quoted information you stated above, believed that there is “Primaris Armor” - because Terminator is a type of armor, not a type of Marine, and at no point, until others started making the argument for you, did you specify that the distinction for you was “a Primaris piloting Indomitus Terminator armor” or “a standard Astartes piloting Indomitus Terminator armor”.  So let’s not be - how did you put it - “intellectually dishonest” in what argument was being made by you…

 

That the other side was also conflating the idea of the Marine inside with the armor identity does not matter a whit - it is also a bad argument.

 

You are not making an argument about this all being about the Marine inside vs. the armor outside, you are coat-tailing other people making good arguments with inanity and claiming that it supports something when you can’t even get an analogy correct.  The Marine’s armor is not the “aftermarket appearance package” specifically because it has the ability to enhance the user (driver)’s capabilities beyond what they could do if they were simply nude - in other words, the entire vehicle is the armor, because it enhances the driver’s capabilities beyond what they can due simply nude.

 

@WrathOfTheLion Absolutely.

Whatever you say bro.