Firstborn or Primaris?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

24 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

It could be one or the other, or preferably a mix of both inside the armor. If they give us some nice, properly scaled Indomitus armor, frankly I don't understand why anyone cares what Space Marine is inside of it, as long as they don't say Hydra Dominatus when nobody is looking.

This post just made me imagine a FB and a primaris stuffed inside the armor with each operating one arm and one leg like a 3 legged race lol

 

but I don’t personally care one way or the other. The last 8 years or so would just indicate its unlikely to be FB if the distinction between the two remains in the rules.

[Bryan Blaire]

6 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Whatever you say bro.

This is very convincing that the argument presented has been one that we should all change to.

 

Or there’s no capability to refute it because it is exactly as I have shown based on quotes and tracks a continuing shifting stance during the argument - which is happening in both the pro-Primaris and pro-classic Astartes argument lines.

 

Explain again how the Marine’s armor provides absolutely no benefit and he has the same capabilities within the armor as when they aren’t wearing it that would make the analogy correct?

 

To recap - based on what we know:

- There is no factual evidence that the Terminators displayed will have the Primaris keyword.

- We have conflicting rumors as to whether the Primaris keyword will stay or go.

- We have no information on what Marines will look like rules-wise if the Primaris keyword goes.

- If the models are simply upscaled Indomitus Terminator models, then unless there is something expressly forbidding it, rules-wise, then you could use them to represent either Primaris or classic Astartes Terminators

 

So speculatively, the Terminators GW is going to bring out are most likely to be scaled up - if the keyword remains, it is most likely that the suits will be operated by Primaris Marines (and most likely continuing previous Marine patterns - they will be veterans), and likely to be termed “Primaris Terminators” or “Primaris Assault Terminators” or some such for the data slate(s).  

 

If the keyword does not remain, there will be no rules distinction between Marines that are classic Astartes pattern or the Primaris pattern (Astartes 1.16 based on the math) piloting them, and we don’t really have any good speculation on what the unit could have, other than it will contain “Terminators” in it, unless GW has completely lost it’s marbles as a company.  In this scenario, only fluff will indicate what pattern of Marine is using the armor, and it can be completely ignored if one wants to use modern models to represent scenarios where GW’s fluff has little bearing on what you are playing.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Bryan Blaire
Removed overly critical comments about the poster, instead of the posted content - that shouldn’t have happened and I apologize

[Blindhamster]

its indomitus armour. We can make highly educated assumptions that that is the case, what with the helm and general should/upper chest area looking the same as it always has.

 

Kind of the end of that subject for now, right? We don't know who is inside it, and I'm not sure it really matters.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m willing to let it ride.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Another amazing argument on display!

 

Astounding!  What a retort, a repartee worth of a master orator who knows with conviction that his argument is solid.

 

Or there’s no capability to refute it because it is exactly as I have said based on your own quotes and continuing shifting stance during the argument.  Way to pivot - you certainly are a study in how the rest of the Frater should do it!  ;)

 

So explain to me again how the Marine’s armor provides absolutely no benefit and he has the same capabilities within the armor as when they aren’t wearing it, so that everyone knows that your analogy capability is correct?

 

To recap - based on what we know:

- There is no factual evidence that the Terminators displayed will have the Primaris keyword.

- We have conflicting rumors as to whether the Primaris keyword will stay or go.

- We have no information on what Marines will look like rules-wise if the Primaris keyword goes.

- If the models are simply upscaled Indomitus Terminator models, then unless there is something expressly forbidding it, rules-wise, then you could use them to represent either Primaris or classic Astartes Terminators

 

So speculatively, the Terminators GW is going to bring out are most likely to be scaled up - if the keyword remains, it is most likely that the suits will be operated by Primaris Marines (and most likely continuing previous Marine patterns - they will be veterans), and likely to be termed “Primaris Terminators” or “Primaris Assault Terminators” or some such for the data slate(s).  

 

If the keyword does not remain, there will be no rules distinction between Marines that are classic Astartes pattern or the Primaris pattern (Astartes 1.16 based on the math) piloting them, and we don’t really have any good speculation on what the unit could have, other than it will contain “Terminators” in it, unless GW has completely lost it’s marbles as a company.  In this scenario, only fluff will indicate what pattern of Marine is using the armor, and it can be completely ignored if one wants to use modern models to represent scenarios where GW’s fluff has little bearing on what you are playing.

you're not here to have an actual debate and acknowledge reality, i'm done trying to talk reason with you.

[DesuVult]

Some people seem to get away with being rather insulting and dismissive whenever this topic comes up.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

33 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

Some people seem to get away with being rather insulting and dismissive whenever this topic comes up.

Right? I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve been taken by the black ships for violations I can’t even figure out what I did wrong, then there’s some of the stuff said to me and not a single mod here to warn people to keep things civil.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

its indomitus armour. We can make highly educated assumptions that that is the case, what with the helm and general should/upper chest area looking the same as it always has.

 

Kind of the end of that subject for now, right? We don't know who is inside it, and I'm not sure it really matters.

 

All things considered, GW will probably say there is a Primaris Marine inside the armor. Once the keyword has gone away though, it will just be a Space Marine, like it should be.

 

All that really matters is that we get upscaled versions of classic sculpts that are not arbitrarily smaller scale than Primaris sculpts.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Primaris keyword is not going away.

[spessmarine]

10 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

No keyword means it does not matter anymore, which is great. At that point, I would not really care what flavor of Space Marine GW says is inside of the armor. "Firstborn" and "Primaris" are just terms made up by GW. Space Marines are Space Marines.

 

Now we need some upscaled Mk 7.

The fluff behind marines+ and how they had to weave it into the setting is the part I like least. It, is likely partly due to them being written into a corner where adding something new becomes a laborious ordeal.
Personally, I like them mixing things up a bit here and there as well as the sculpt refreshing. I would've preferred re-scaling and new toys with scant justification. Sicarans for example, I think look great and would've just rolled with adding them to 40k proper by just saying, "someone found a way to make them again". Tacticals refreshed to be larger just because and other things added it by STC magic; or, no techno-heresy was needed to swap a dreadnought sarcophagus with a roll cage. (so my preference would absolutely tick off other people )

 

So for me, dropping the keyword is great. Let 'em all ride in Spartans cause Spartans look really cool.  

 

[Evil Eye]

I find the anger over the possibility of the new Terminators not being Primaris...odd. Like, speaking for myself, if we get new Terminators that look like Terminators, I don't care whether they're Primaris or Firstborn wearing the armour; that's a fluff matter that can be happily ignored. Doubly so if the Primaris/Firstborn keyword distinction is abandoned (please GW!). I'd feel the same about new Tactical Marines; if they're wearing Mark VII armour I don't care if they're "officially" Primaris because it doesn't make any difference to the actual models. Also it seems really weird and a bit childish for people to be upset at the prospect of Firstborn getting ONE new kit whilst Primaris keep getting release after release. Hell, we just got the Furioso with added stubbers and those horrible missile troops! Would it really hurt to have a classic unit updated for once?

[Blindhamster]

Not going to argue the point, my actual stance is pretty clear I think, but your point about not getting why people would be annoyed, is equally valid in reverse. 
 

people feel like they have a horse in the race, even though said race probably won’t matter long term 

[Orange Knight]

From a lore perspective I personally want them to be Primaris Marines inside the suits because Primaris are the superior specimens.

 

The Terminators are 1st company Elites, and should be the best of the best. A Primaris is superior to a classic Marine. Bigger, Stronger, More Durable.

 

Whether they are all new Marines or ones that have crossed the Rubicon isn't important.

[Halandaar]

16 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Terminators are 1st company Elites, and should be the best of the best. A Primaris is superior to a classic Marine. Bigger, Stronger, More Durable.

 

I'd counter that Marines aren't promoted to the first company for being bigger, stronger or more durable but rather for their immense battlefield experience, tactical acumen, acts of particular heroism, leadership qualities and so on. A bunch of fresh-out-the-vat Primaris are not going to be more suitable for this role than Firstborn Marines with centuries of experience.

 

The only situation in which being Primaris should make a difference IMO is if you are trying to choose between two Marines with exactly the same experience, abilities and accolades, but one is Primaris and the other isn't. Otherwise, it should just be best man for the job, not best physique for the job.

[Orange Knight]

16 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

 

I'd counter that Marines aren't promoted to the first company for being bigger, stronger or more durable but rather for their immense battlefield experience, tactical acumen, acts of particular heroism, leadership qualities and so on. A bunch of fresh-out-the-vat Primaris are not going to be more suitable for this role than Firstborn Marines with centuries of experience.

 

 

Yes, and those veterans with experience can cross the Rubicon, following the example of Calgar, Dante, Azrael, etc.

 

Sometimes individuals are exceptional. It's why characters like Captain Felix in the Dark Imperium trilogy exist. He is a Primaris Marine with a relatively short service history, but has risen to a high rank and commands great authority. 

 

I also disagree with your assessment about their ability. In the lore there are dozens of examples of a Primaris Marine with little experience besting a veteran of countless wars by virtue of their enhanced abilities. It happened recently in the novel "Throne of Light" after a Primaris defeats a veteran Black Templar Chaplain in single combat. 

 

The Primaris are also shown to survive injuries that would have killed a Marine of the old breed on a regular basis. I see no better custodians of the Terminator suits than Marines who are more tough and durable.

 

The tabletop is not a fair reflection of their differences (but the tabletop fails in this regard for many things). In the lore the Primaris are superior on a physical level, and their weapons are superior in terms of performance. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Orange Knight

[WARMASTER_]

9 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Sometimes individuals are exceptional. It's why characters like Captain Felix in the Dark Imperium trilogy exist. He is a Primaris Marine with a relatively short service history, but has risen to a high rank and commands great authority. 

True, but I’m always remained the encounter from Throne of Light when a Word Bearers Dark Apostle completely devastates a Primaris captain with contemptuous ease breaking his blade, ripping open his armour and leaving him for dead! All while berating him for basically having the experience of a FB Neophyte 

 

“You are a captain. A hero of your dying god. Never have I seen anything less deserving of the rank.”

 

“I expect a challenge from you, every time I face you, and every time I am disappointed.”

It’s a great example of showing centuries of real combat experience vs simulators and slightly superior genetics 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Word Bearers cheat.

[Orange Knight]

A Dark Apostle would be extremely powerful in the lore.

 

Psykers in the lore are a lore more devastating than they are on the tabletop. That's another thing that isn't reflected accurately. 

[WARMASTER_]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

A Dark Apostle would be extremely powerful in the lore.

Sorry but a Captain should extremely powerful in lore too?? That’s literally the point the Word Bearer was making…

[Orange Knight]

16 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Sorry but a Captain should extremely powerful in lore too?? That’s literally the point the Word Bearer was making…

 

Compared to a high ranking servant of the Dark Gods who carries the favour of the powers of the Warp? Maybe not.

[Blindhamster]

Worth noting, not all primaris are "fresh out of the vat" as it were. There are plenty of primaris with quite a lot of service already. The average firstborn doesn't live hundreds of years either, in fact, its rare for them to live that long, chaplain cassius is one of the oldest marines in the ultramarines entire chapter, he's 400. Many don't get past 50. There are real exceptions like commander Dante, but that's kind of the point, he's that old. There are primaris with decades of experience, there are primaris with even more, because they'd been getting used for missions as tests by cawl even before they were formally released. Is the average primaris marine going to be more experienced than the average firstborn at this point? No. But, there's probably not too much in it realistically, especially when many primaris are marines that crossed the rubicon now.

 

There are stories like the one warmaster described with a primaris captain getting decimated (there's another one like it with Seth and a Primaris capatain that doesn't know his place, and I'm sure at least one other with a primaris captain joining a chapter), but there are also stories where it's the primaris captains that defeat powerful foes with ease. It really just comes down to the story at hand, and what better tells the desired narrative. If we look at the rules, the primaris captain is a superior unit to the captain when not considering wargear, and even if considering wargear, the primaris captain with relic shield probably still comes out on top, but you can make a beastly "smash captain" using firstborn if desired that is going to be crazy powerful.

 

The conversation above is basically just another "my dad can beat up your dad" back and forth and whilst it's amusing, it's equally meaningless.

 

p.s. if there are veteran primaris, there's no reason there can't be veteran primaris that don a suit of terminator armour if GW wants them too. I really do think they'll make it so there's no distinction between the two types on the tabletop, even implying in lore that units are made up of the two types as needed.

 

p.p.s. small aside but something I like about phobos marines, is that it makes some logical sense they should be a thing, full battle brothers that excelled at the operations performed as scouts would be an obvious and fairly huge asset to a chapter, and their complete physiology coupled with better equipment would mean they can be sent on more dangerous missions in lore - to me, it would make total sense for firstborn that similarly excelled to join such units as they have gear better suited to the activities.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Blindhamster

[WARMASTER_]

20 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Compared to a high ranking servant of the Dark Gods who carries the favour of the powers of the Warp? Maybe not.

Yes! That’s the whole point, a Space Marine Captain should be a paragon of his Chapter, steeped in centuries of war. A hero of the Imperium, He should a Match for the Dark Apostle at the very least a challenge! He shouldn’t laughed at while he swats him aside with no consequence! whole point the Dark Apostle was making…

 

It was also the point Guy Haley was trying to get across with the Duel, that superior physicality doesn’t make up for centuries of combat experience 

[Orange Knight]

5 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Yes! That’s the whole point, a Space Marine Captain should be a paragon of his Chapter, steeped in centuries of war. A hero of the Imperium, He should a Match for the Dark Apostle at the very least a challenge! He shouldn’t laughed at while he swats him aside with no consequence! whole point the Dark Apostle was making…

 

It was also the point Guy Haley was trying to get across with the Duel, that superior physicality doesn’t make up for centuries of combat experience 

 

Sure, but as has been mentioned above, these stories all take place within the first 5 or 6 years of the introduction of Primaris. The most current stories are probably 20-40 years later.

 

Here is a simple truth. Everyone can now cross the Rubicon. Dante is the oldest living Marine, and the books mention on multiple occasions how his body has started to break down and how he doesn't heal as fast as he used to.

 

He has crossed. And he is now more powerful - he literally says this in the reveal trailer.

Even if a few Space Marines fail in crossing, the rest who come out as more powerful justify the risk.

 

I see no reason why the Marines wouldn't follow in the footsteps of their chapter master and cross the Rubicon, and why they wouldn't have every new Marine made going forward be a Primaris.

 

The Terminators will be described as being Primaris under their suits, because that's the only way they can be incorporated into all the stories going forward. There are entire Chapters that are Primaris only. The Blood Angels are Primaris only following the Devastation of Baal - I think only a handful or so of the original Marines survived the Tyranid war.

[WARMASTER_]

We’ve had discussions before on why I disagree that all marines will or should soon be Primaris so I won’t go back into in here 

28 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Terminators will be described as being Primaris under their suits, because that's the only way they can be incorporated into all the stories going forward. There are entire Chapters that are Primaris only. The Blood Angels are Primaris only following the Devastation of Baal - I think only a handful or so of the original Marines survived the Tyranid war.

Saying that they’ll be Primaris is a baseless assumption where all the evidence is pointing the other way, last week before the trailer you were arguing they’ll never make Indomitus Terminators again but they’ll be a newer Primaris Design which hasn’t happened

 

Also just to add its never been stated anywhere that the entire Blood Angels chapter is now Primaris or that only a handful survived after the Devastation of Baal! In fact the evidence is quite opposite in the most recent books with the older generation coming to terms with the new breed of warrior

Edited March 19, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[Blindhamster]

Per devastation of baals ending, and events covered in darkness in the blood, there were in fact, not many blood angels left.

 

however, they definitely aren’t entirely primaris, and the firstborn ones that are left are most certainly veterans, regardless of years of experience.

 

we do know that guilliman provided the means for the blood angels to be rebuilt as primaris and that that was indeed the plan, there is a little confusion though because the codex notes a lot of neophytes and prior to evidence via black templars, it wasn’t clear of primaris became neophytes, we now know that the “ready to fight” primaris were a cawl thing and not how most chapters do it (confirmed via the updated making a space marine article and the black templars still using neophytes), but we don’t know that the hundreds of neophytes are definitely primaris either, it could well be that they also are making firstborn still as no doubt there is still a finite amount of geneseed of each type.
 

the blood angels did also regain 3rd company and 4th company iirc which were a mix of primaris and firstborn that had been crusading with guilliman prior to them coming for cleanup duty on baal.

 

bit of a rambling note sorry, basically saying yes, most blood angels in lore are primaris from what we know, but most simply means more than half, not all. We know there are active firstborn as well

Edited March 19, 2023 by Blindhamster