Firstborn or Primaris?

[Orange Knight]

Cawl couldn't improve the design of the suit. 

A Primaris Marine isn't simply a new suit - He is an improved biological creation. 

 

So we finally have a classic suit, and inside you have the choice of having a Primaris or not. And interestingly some people are still rejecting that option. 

 

To me this isn't shoehorning Primaris into it, it's actually throwing a bone to their haters that have been unable to move on after 7 years. 

 

I think people on both sides like the design of the Terminator suit, and just as that classic looking Black Templar Castellan was well received, there was no doubt these Terminators would be also. I personally would have wanted a few more changes, especially to their wargear, but I can't deny that they look great.

 

In the lore itself, a big driver in our love for the hobby, the timeline is advancing quite a bit. Soon we'll reach a point that is a century or more into the introduction of the Primaris. The Devastation of Baal is 80 years after Guilliman's resurrection, and 10th edition takes place after that. I see no lore reason why the Chapters that have embraced the Primaris (all of them at this point?) would want to create inferior Astartes now that the improved creations have access to all the worthwhile wargear and weapons.

[Marshal Reinhard]

While I don't particular care for the current last few arguments made of either side,

 

I will say that the new terminators, and the accompanying primaris marines in the new box, will have been designed with each other in mind. The height of the terminator matches beautifully the height of the intercessor they showcased in their own size comparison. You can really the see the same humanoid inside of either.

 

While I know the argument has been made that terminators should be towering several feet above regular marines, this doesn't make too much if you're taking account the marine inside the armor. What of the knees for instance? Unless the suit is so large that the entire length of the marine's leg fits above the terminators knee, it would not make sense, unless marines have secret third joint. 

 

Marines aren't Tau that hide their arms inside the torso while in a crisis suit whose suits limbs are entirely mechanical. That the limbs are mechanically enlonged towards the end, (like in star craft) only really works if the forearms are notably much longer than upper arms, otherwise again neccessitating a new joint.

 

I'm not arguing lore or anything here. Simply model aesthetics and proportions. The new models I would say is designed to fit with primaris models, but this is only because the older classic marine models 'scale is an abberation of history. I'd rather any lore size distinction between primaris and classic marines be dropped yesterday, but that can only take shape in the real world with a new classic marine power armor kit, not holding my breath for now. (curious how well HH beakies will stack up next to the new terminators, as their proportions are not near the ballbark of BoC/2012 tactical kit). 

[Kallas]

52 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I see no lore reason why the Chapters that have embraced the Primaris (all of them at this point?)

Yes, that's the problem.

 

16 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I'd rather any lore size distinction between primaris and classic marines be dropped yesterday, but that can only take shape in the real world with a new classic marine power armor kit, not holding my breath for now.

And that's the thing. New 'classic' kits with the new scale would be fantastic.

 

But for Orange Knight we absolutely must get rid of Firstborn, because the new scale is for Primaris only 

[Blindhamster]

Doesn’t everyone think the conversation has ran it’s course. There are people that don’t like one kind or the other, that’s fine, there are people that think differently from eachother and that’s fine too. But circular debates are circular. You aren’t going to agree and are all arguing in your own little echo chambers at this point.

 

the new models will look however GW want, they might make new models the same size as primaris but in other mks of armour, or they may not. We shall see, arguing it would be better to do it is subjective, arguing it would be worse is also subjective. There is no way for them to keep everyone happy anymore, they created a divide they won’t realistically be able to fix

[Kallas]

Well this where it keeps coming from:  

10 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

GW doesn't need to remake all the kits.

OK keeps asserting that we don't need Firstborn kits, only Primaris.

 

Would be nice if they could stop spouting that crap, that would immediately reduce the amount of bickering by a large amount. Especially since GW seems to consider Firstborn to still be a thing with the Terminators and, hopefully, some refreshed kits would put it to rest.

 

[Edit: Not saying that I don't have my own issues with this of course, but that most of it is pushing back against this kind of commentary.]

 

11 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

There are people that don’t like one kind or the other, that’s fine, there are people that think differently from eachother and that’s fine too. But circular debates are circular.

Difference is, one is actively lobbying for the other to not exist anymore. Maybe if we can actually get some improved Firstborn kits, we can put the argument that they should be retired to rest.

 

The Terminators are much taller, because they sat them squarely on the fence. If they'd be definitively Firstborn, then this argument that Firstborn should/n't go away would already be finished, as we'd have conclusive proof of their continued existence or not.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Kallas

[Marshal Reinhard]

I'd say I saw a fair bit of the other side lobbying against the dissolution of the other as well. In the beginning at least. The past 7 years has made it abundantly clear that how much of an upstream battle that was though, so most such voices have fallen silent now.

 

Lorewise I pretty much just view primarization as "updated software". Perhaps I'm not thinking about it too deeply, but I think a lot of people are in the same boat, (though obviously not all though, on either side). But to me its now been shown that new software can run on the old hardware called terminators. I'd rather just GW complete the circle, have it so the new software can run old powerarmor hardware too. Most people against primaris are against the new equipment, foremost yes? That's what we see on the models anyway? They prefer the old stuff. Or do they care too much about if the marine inside crossed the rubicon or not? (Of course some will, still.)

 

Have everyone be upgraded, and they can then use new and old gear as wanted, and lets forget this song and dance once and for all.

 

[Orange Knight]

@Kallas

 

You musunderstand and are making things too personal.

 

I'm saying that we don't need more redundant kits in the range period. Remaking a Tactical squad will do what? Make another near identical troop unit? 

I'd rather GW just released an upgrade sprue allowing a few extra options for the Intercessors at that point.

 

There are key units that need a refresh. The Tactical squad isn't one of them as a new unit exists that already performs it's job, and does so better I might add.

 

I'd rather look at the bigger picture of the Marine range, and also recognise that the range exists as one faction out of many. 

[Kallas]

17 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

we don't need more redundant kits

[...]

Intercessors 

Uh huh...

[Orange Knight]

3 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Uh huh...

 

It's not redundant if it's a replacement.

[Marshal Reinhard]

And the song and dance begins anew...

[Orange Knight]

Well, I've said my peace. This topic in particular seems to rile me up. I'll take a step back for now as we eagerly await 10th.

[Kallas]

17 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

It's not redundant if it's a replacement.

Truly insane.

Somehow a refreshed Tactical kit is redundant, but a kit that is/n't replacing it* but does exactly the same thing is not.

 

The amazing hurdles that you will jump through to justify getting rid of Firstborn/introducing new Primaris stuff.

 

* Because it's either replacing it, at which point it's the same as a fresh Tactical kit; or it's not and so the 'new' kit is entirely redundant in purpose.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Kallas

[Marshal Reinhard]

The whole redundancy debate is a bit redundant in itself, as wether or not the Tactical stays forever or doesn't, its not been replaced/supplemented by just one kit, but several, as we have incursors and heavy intercessors as well now. Wether yet one additional kit beyond that is redundant....

[Blindhamster]

Here’s the thing. They don’t NEED to remake old kits. They might do it, they might not. They might make new units that take inspiration from both old and new, they might not. The cries for old stuff to be updated is no less inane than the cries to get rid of the old stuff.

 

GW had a plan, they probably still do, not everyone will like it, and now they can’t win, there’s always going to be people bashing those that like something different. They can’t fix it now as any move they make other than combining the two types (which doesn’t mean just upscaling old kits, it means actually blending both sets of sensibilities) and even that is going to upset some people.

edit…

the only certainty, is there will be more space marines lol

Edited March 27, 2023 by Blindhamster

[ZeroWolf]

Personally, I think they would only remake old kits if the mould breaks or if it'd stopped selling. I can easily see GW saying that from a certain point in the lore that all space marines are now primaris (to make this clear I don't think it'll happen for another few editions yet). However we will see them being more flexible in what gear they use.

 

That's not to say MK 7-8 armour will be going anywhere as GW could create a bridge product between HH and current 40k lore so you can do more "historical" battles like the 3 Wars for Armageddon, the battle for macragge etc etc.

 

End of the day, I sometimes wonder if we care more about these distinctions then GW themselves do now.

[spessmarine]

feels like they are roundabout refreshing the old classics and doing a nostalgia tour in HH anyways

 

[Captain Idaho]

A YouTuber brought up an interesting point that is underlined somewhat by the faithful new rendition of new Terminators - companies like to cash in on nostalgia.

 

Every time GW releases something that triggers a nostalgia reflex, it sells like cakes heated to a temperature that would tantalise even the staunchest diestist.

 

We'll see new Firstborn MK7 power armour sooner or later. If GW has any brains it'll be sooner as they'll sell hard.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Marshal Reinhard]

Maybe a HH kit as it comes full circle

[Captain Idaho]

I reckon it'll be Age of Darkness, yes.

[ZeroWolf]

3 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

A YouTuber brought up an interesting point that is underlined somewhat by the faithful new rendition of new Terminators - companies like to cash in on nostalgia.

 

Every time GW releases something that triggers a nostalgia reflex, it sells like cakes heated to a temperature that would tantalise even the staunchest diestist.

 

We'll see new Firstborn MK7 power armour sooner or later. If GW has any brains it'll be sooner as they'll sell hard.

Speaking of MK7 did GW ever release a MK8 outside of the one breast plate as part of the tactical squad kit? I remember the old WD article mentioning it as if it was yesterday...(and not 25 years ago )

[Kallas]

34 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

Speaking of MK7 did GW ever release a MK8 outside of the one breast plate as part of the tactical squad kit? I remember the old WD article mentioning it as if it was yesterday...(and not 25 years ago )

Grey Knights have Mk8 en masse, and there are Mk8 bits sprinkled throughout various kits (Tacticals and Sternguard for sure, I think also Devastator, but can't recall immediately).

 

The real question is what happened to Mk 9 

[WrathOfTheLion]

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

A YouTuber brought up an interesting point that is underlined somewhat by the faithful new rendition of new Terminators - companies like to cash in on nostalgia.

 

Every time GW releases something that triggers a nostalgia reflex, it sells like cakes heated to a temperature that would tantalise even the staunchest diestist.

 

We'll see new Firstborn MK7 power armour sooner or later. If GW has any brains it'll be sooner as they'll sell hard.

I know I've made that point a few times since 2E 30k came out. GW is in a big nostalgia phase right now which serves as a way to keep veteran players interested and involved, while also having new stuff for new players.

[Nephaston]

4 hours ago, Kallas said:

Grey Knights have Mk8 en masse, and there are Mk8 bits sprinkled throughout various kits (Tacticals and Sternguard for sure, I think also Devastator, but can't recall immediately).

 

The real question is what happened to Mk 9 

You mean Deathwatch, Grey knights don't have Mk8 at all, and are more in line with a modified mk6, though admittedly the backpacks are similar.

[Blindhamster]

8 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

You mean Deathwatch, Grey knights don't have Mk8 at all, and are more in line with a modified mk6, though admittedly the backpacks are similar.

And the torsos, really the only mk6 detail is the legs

[Karhedron]

5 hours ago, Kallas said:

The real question is what happened to Mk 9 

 

Just like with Windows 7 8 9 (seven ate nine).