Rumour Refreshes for the big chapters coming

[Arkangilos]

5 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

A point of the Tyrannic War Veterans is they aren't codex compliant.  They were formed as a break from the codex astartes in doctrine.

Mind citing that for me? With a quote?

 

And at this point, why should it be UM exclusive?

Edited March 31, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Blindhamster]

They were originally setup by chaplain Cassius as he believed specialist tyranid hunters were required with the new threat (after the state he was left in and his own hatred of them). Believe that was their lore in most marine codexes since their inception.

 

they technically aren’t just units with experience fighting nids, they’re units specifically formed, trained and equipped to combat nids above all else.

 

 

[Mjasghar]

16 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Mind citing that for me? With a quote?

 

And at this point, why should it be UM exclusive?

White Dwarf (lexicanum says issue 305 usa) 

also Google tyrannic war veterans and conclave of Hera.

Essentially it was a debate about interpretation of the codex with Calgar getting the final say. 

[Arkangilos]

3 minutes ago, Mjasghar said:

White Dwarf (lexicanum says issue 305 usa) 

also Google tyrannic war veterans and conclave of Hera.

Essentially it was a debate about interpretation of the codex with Calgar getting the final say. 

Is that modern lore? Do you have a recent codex or supplement quote?

 

And do you have an argument for why it should be UM exclusive, considering all that has happened?

Edited March 31, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Lemondish]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

what you just described is a half assed mid point between a normal kit w/ upgrade sprue and a truly unique kit, that would satisfy very few people and likely be major flop for GW.

Exactly.

 

We don't even need to imagine it, just look at the Hounds of Morkai as an example. Unit with small upgrade sprue... didn't exactly fly off shelves

[Arkangilos]

5 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Exactly.

 

We don't even need to imagine it, just look at the Hounds of Morkai as an example. Unit with small upgrade sprue... didn't exactly fly off shelves

I think one of the problems with it is that you have to buy extra. 
 

It isn’t that it is half assed, it is that it is just extra money.

[Castellan Wulfrik]

8 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Is that modern lore? Do you have a recent codex or supplement quote?

 

And do you have an argument for why it should be UM exclusive, considering all that has happened?

Bruh, it's Cassius' personal army of tyranid hating pipe hitters. Unless the dude got a transfer I don't see why any other legion would have access. You could make an argument for the Scythes and the closest successor chapters of the Ultramarines following their lead, but otherwise no. Also, why should the recency of the lore be relevant. The great thing about 40K was that it could represent battles and conflicts across 10,000 years of history. People, including GW, have unfortunately lost sight of that. 'Sorry brah that dude died in the latest book, no rules now.' Absolutely tragic approach to the universe. 

 

An Ultramarine upgrade set should definitely include tyranid trophies though. The Tyranids should always be the Ultramarines main rivals in the setting.

[Lemondish]

8 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I think one of the problems with it is that you have to buy extra. 

Yes, that is what happens when new units are added to the game. They end up being extra things you have to buy.

[Arkangilos]

15 minutes ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

Bruh, it's Cassius' personal army of tyranid hating pipe hitters. Unless the dude got a transfer I don't see why any other legion would have access. You could make an argument for the Scythes and the closest successor chapters of the Ultramarines following their lead, but otherwise no. Also, why should the recency of the lore be relevant. The great thing about 40K was that it could represent battles and conflicts across 10,000 years of history. People, including GW, have unfortunately lost sight of that. 'Sorry brah that dude died in the latest book, no rules now.' Absolutely tragic approach to the universe. 

 

An Ultramarine upgrade set should definitely include tyranid trophies though. The Tyranids should always be the Ultramarines main rivals in the setting.

Then why could non ultramarines of the same geneseed use them? It says specifically in the sources I was directed to that successors of theirs used them as well. So it obviously isn’t Cassius’s personal army.

 

15 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Yes, that is what happens when new units are added to the game. They end up being extra things you have to buy.

Not when we are talking about all special units.
 

DC had their own dedicated kit. I didn’t have to buy multiple kits to build one special unit.

 

SG had their own dedicated kit. I didn’t have to buy an upgrade kit.

 

DW were the same. 
 

Are you really wanting to go down that road? 

[Noserenda]

Tyranid hunters should be a unique Ultramarines unit, they are a specific formation created years after the legions split within the chapter, sure other chapters could copy that, its called a sternguard squad, or really, veteran intercessors these days.

Unfortunately the slightly janky way successor rules work over the years has meant Ultramarine successors could take them too and plenty of cool people did exactly that, especially chapters like the Scythes of the Emperor! 

Pic unrelated

19095646_10155299917120797_2588717845232583032_o 

[quasistellar]

would be great if every original chapter/legion (loyalist and traitor) had a unique unit.

[Castellan Wulfrik]

9 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Then why could non ultramarines of the same geneseed use them? It says specifically in the sources I was directed to that successors of theirs used them as well. So it obviously isn’t Cassius’s personal army.

 

Not when we are talking about all special units.
 

DC had their own dedicated kit. I didn’t have to buy multiple kits to build one special unit.

 

SG had their own dedicated kit. I didn’t have to buy an upgrade kit.

 

DW were the same. 
 

Are you really wanting to go down that road? 

I can't get the original source on the GW site to open right now but from the summary on lexicanum it seems to back up exactly what I said. If you're familiar with the Ultramarines you'll know they hypocritically do operate quite closely with some of their successor chapters which is against the spirit of the Codex if not in word. Genesis chapter are the commonly cited example. It's really not that surprising that they would send their men to the Ultramarines for joint-training, the chapter specifically mentioned in the source also seem to be an Ultramarine successor that specialises in hunting tyranids. Which again just supports the argument they should be Ultramarine exclusive.  Cassius has also devoted himself to fighting the Tyranids, it wouldn't be surprising for him to visit nearby successor chapters around the Ultramar and personally train units there. I don't think chapters from other geneseeds would be so welcoming of an Ultramarine chaplain coming in to create para-organisational units within their chapter. 

[Castellan Wulfrik]

Putting all the who should get what aside. At the very least every legion should get a BT style upgrade set. I think the best solution would be to release legion specific upgrade sets for 30K, as they would be more easily compatible with the 40K model lines than the other way around and therefore maximise sales. If they can justify making upgrade sprues for pathfinders of all things then we shouldn't be having to wait for stuff like this. 

[Arkangilos]

21 minutes ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

the summary on lexicanum it seems to back up exactly what I said.

Says that the successor chapters also have their own:

 

Some Ultramarines Successor Chapters, such as the Imperial Reavers, are also known to operate formations of Tyrannic War Veterans

 

 

so doesn’t that disprove it as a personal army?

[Castellan Wulfrik]

4 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Says that the successor chapters also have their own:

 

Some Ultramarines Successor Chapters, such as the Imperial Reavers, are also known to operate formations of Tyrannic War Veterans

 

 

so doesn’t that disprove it as a personal army?

Jesus Christ I wasn't being literal, but yes it is a faction within the Ultramarines led by Cassius. He founded them, they operate semi-independently of the chapter organisation and they follow his orders. Now you're just arguing semantics. Let's just leave it and move on. 

[DesuVult]

2 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Mind citing that for me? With a quote?

 

And at this point, why should it be UM exclusive?

4th edition codex, page 50.

WD 306 pages 52-57.

 

There is an entire story event around them with one side arguing they are not codex compliant and the other arguing that against such a foe they need to use the Tyrannic War Veterans anyway.  The latter side wins due to a tyranid attack after discussions had taken place.

Edited April 1, 2023 by DesuVult

[Arkangilos]

13 minutes ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

Jesus Christ I wasn't being literal, but yes it is a faction within the Ultramarines led by Cassius. He founded them, they operate semi-independently of the chapter organisation and they follow his orders. Now you're just arguing semantics. Let's just leave it and move on. 

So explain why a dedicated unit that was so successful and dedicated to this, that has, according to the lore, gone to deathwatch and trained with them, can’t be used by anyone else?

[Noserenda]

5 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

So explain why a dedicated unit that was so successful and dedicated to this, that has, according to the lore, gone to deathwatch and trained with them, can’t be used by anyone else?

I mean thats a pretty bad argument as that would mean every chapter could use every special unit except the death company and wulfen :D 

[OttoVonAwesome]

6 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

So explain why a dedicated unit that was so successful and dedicated to this, that has, according to the lore, gone to deathwatch and trained with them, can’t be used by anyone else?

Cuase they are like a cult. Cassius started them and they are Ultramarines. GW never wrote anything about him spreading his gospel to other chapters. His deathwatch days were prior to the Battle for Macragge. I'm not sure it exclusive to Ultramarines anymore considering that new Phobos guy who really looks like a Tyranid hunter character.

[Arkangilos]

19 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

4th edition codex, page 50.

WD 306 page 52-57.

 

There is an entire story event around them with one side arguing they are not codex compliant and the other arguing that against such a foe they need to use the Tyrannic War Veterans anyway.  The latter side wins due to a tyranid attack after discussions had taken place.

Thanks!

[Arkangilos]

18 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

I'm not sure it exclusive to Ultramarines anymore considering that new Phobos guy who really looks like a Tyranid hunter character.

Well I mean this was my point. 
At this point the author of the Codex has returned, the entire galaxy has seen the Tyrannic Wars, and it has been 300 years since the unit was founded.

 

It is my understanding the author of the codex, the guy who revised it since his return, loved the idea. 
 

So it doesn’t make sense to me that it would be a paragon of the Codex- 

 

Actually I take that back. You right.

[Orange Knight]

Aren't the Deathwing just Terminators with some extra weapon variety?

 

Aren't Ravenwing the same but on bikes? 

 

Since Cawl unveiled the Primaris, new plasma weapons are common place. Why wouldn't the other chapters decide to put some Plasma Rifles on some Outrider bikes?

 

Guilliman's 1st instruction upon his return is to not follow the codex in a dogmatic manner. He even rewarded individuals like Uriel Ventris, who in the past were punished for breaking the codex rules.

 

I think there is now justification for all chapters to have unique units.

 

 

[Arkangilos]

18 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Aren't the Deathwing just Terminators with some extra weapon variety?

 

Aren't Ravenwing the same but on bikes? 

 

Since Cawl unveiled the Primaris, new plasma weapons are common place. Why wouldn't the other chapters decide to put some Plasma Rifles on some Outrider bikes?

 

Guilliman's 1st instruction upon his return is to not follow the codex in a dogmatic manner. He even rewarded individuals like Uriel Ventris, who in the past were punished for breaking the codex rules.

 

I think there is now justification for all chapters to have unique units.

 

 

That’s fair. 

[Wispy]

Primaris Thunderwolves or I riot.

[ThePenitentOne]

5 hours ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

Bruh, it's Cassius' personal army of tyranid hating pipe hitters. Unless the dude got a transfer I don't see why any other legion would have access. You could make an argument for the Scythes and the closest successor chapters of the Ultramarines following their lead, but otherwise no. Also, why should the recency of the lore be relevant. The great thing about 40K was that it could represent battles and conflicts across 10,000 years of history. People, including GW, have unfortunately lost sight of that. 'Sorry brah that dude died in the latest book, no rules now.' Absolutely tragic approach to the universe. 

 

An Ultramarine upgrade set should definitely include tyranid trophies though. The Tyranids should always be the Ultramarines main rivals in the setting.

 

Oh man... So I'm not the biggest Marine fan, but I love the Chambers Militant. And it would be really cool to play Cassius over a narrative arc- Young Ultramarine to Tyrranic War Vet, to Deathwatch, to training units from other chapters to fight as Tyranic War vets in preparation for the the onslaught approaching from the Galactic West.

 

Of course, it remains to be seen how kind 10th is to Deathwatch.