Blurring between Firstborn and Primaris incoming with 10th?

[WARMASTER_]

6 hours ago, SickSix said:

I still can't believe people really believe GWs long term plan is to keep making Firstborn model line alongside Primaris. It's crazy. Primaris can now be our beloved Indominus Terminators.  So once Primaris get proper jump pack choppy slashy boys there is really nothing stopping them from discontinuing First Born. I expect a refreshed or Cawlized Land Raidrer kit in the next 12 months. Then really what role do you still need firstborn for? Not much.

I mean they’ve just released a FB kit that’ll be in the range for about 15+ years that might be one reason why people believe it? Money also springs to mind! Surely that’s an easy one to see… They’ve  just made an entire range of FB HH kits that they can sell to 40k marines players why would they restrict themselves arbitrarily and lose sales 

[SickSix]

11 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

I mean they’ve just released a FB kit that’ll be in the range for about 15+ years that might be one reason why people believe it? Money also springs to mind! Surely that’s an easy one to see… They’ve  just made an entire range of FB HH kits that they can sell to 40k marines players why would they restrict themselves arbitrarily and lose sales 

People keep saying "they just released a FB kit!" And I can easily say "they just released a Primaris Kit!" Bloat and costs are why it's crazy to think GW is going to maintain the FULL FB model line alongside an expanding Primaris line forever. They are a business. Cost efficiency is a thing. Shelf space is a thing. Publication bloat is definitely a thing in 40k. 

 

It's funny to me how people are claiming the New Termies are a "New FB kit" when really, they are a new Primaris kit. More and more FB only units keep getting Legends treatment and now the most iconic SM unit ever can be run as Primaris but somehow its a sign of FB longevity. Allowing them to be FB as well as Primaris is just appeasing all the SM players still running their FB armies. 

 

If they release newer MkVII tacticals or refresh any other FB only kits WITHOUT also giving them the Primaris keyword, then you have evidence of FB longevity.

 

Sure they will keep them in the rules a while longer while they continue to flesh out the full line of Primaris models, but it will be very interesting to see what new FB units get relegated to Legends when the 10th codex drops.

[ZeroWolf]

Well as per Valraks rumours, box dreads and land speeders are up for the chop, though I'd be surprised if it was all box dreads and not just the bog standard ones.

[Kallas]

41 minutes ago, SickSix said:

It's funny to me how people are claiming the New Termies are a "New FB kit" when really, they are a new Primaris kit. More and more FB only units keep getting Legends treatment and now the most iconic SM unit ever can be run as Primaris but somehow its a sign of FB longevity. Allowing them to be FB as well as Primaris is just appeasing all the SM players still running their FB armies. 

It's funny to me how Firstborn players are labelled as alarmist when they say FB are being phased out...and then when GW gives us a unit applicable to both (and it is a distinct Firstborn design, basically unchanged from the prior FB kit) it's then definitely not Firstborn and is somehow also evidence of FB going away 

 

Personally I agree with you, they will definitely push forward with sidelining Firstborn slowly, as we have seen that Primaris are the only thing GW are interested in pushing for Marines. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

39 minutes ago, SickSix said:

People keep saying "they just released a FB kit!" And I can easily say "they just released a Primaris Kit!" Bloat and costs are why it's crazy to think GW is going to maintain the FULL FB model line alongside an expanding Primaris line forever. They are a business. Cost efficiency is a thing. Shelf space is a thing. Publication bloat is definitely a thing in 40k. 

 

It's funny to me how people are claiming the New Termies are a "New FB kit" when really, they are a new Primaris kit. More and more FB only units keep getting Legends treatment and now the most iconic SM unit ever can be run as Primaris but somehow its a sign of FB longevity. Allowing them to be FB as well as Primaris is just appeasing all the SM players still running their FB armies. 

 

If they release newer MkVII tacticals or refresh any other FB only kits WITHOUT also giving them the Primaris keyword, then you have evidence of FB longevity.

 

Sure they will keep them in the rules a while longer while they continue to flesh out the full line of Primaris models, but it will be very interesting to see what new FB units get relegated to Legends when the 10th codex drops.

I feel like you're giving voice to some thoughts I've had though I perhaps would frame it a little differently.

 

Kits will stay as long as the moulds for making them hold. After that who knows? Maybe they will renew the 2012 tactical kit, maybe they wont. But the same can be said for select other units sprues too, like the one making the surpressors that we still haven't seen a multipart kit of. As long as there's no redesign/multipart kit of that, I feel its future is up in the air as well. Well, regardless, any kit not reproduced would go to Legends.

 

A lot of arguments for have been made for consolidating the SM line. It will have to happen eventually, but for some we just aren't there yet. Like for instance, I just don't feel that the company that deliberately splits up single kits into multiple different datasheets is feeling the same urgency in reducing publication bloat (or were you reffering to the number of different publications with this one?) as we maybe are. The company that introduces 2-3 kits that overlap with the existing one (Tactical to intercessor, heavy intercessor, infiltrator, if the latter can be viewed as a basic bolter phobos squad at all.)

 

But I do agree with you for the above arguments. Not everything in the ballooning space marine line will be made in perpetuity. They even made an explicit out for this in the form of Legends, where kits they don't plan to make anymore can be... said to be maintained rather than outright squatted (if that term is as relevant anymore?)

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I've personally reached the point where my marines will always be firstborn even after the rules for them are phased out, and even my new kits will get modified enough to make them vibe as FB rather than Primaris. This whole thing has been a travesty. I already run my EC with the Primaris rules but without the Primaris keyword so that he can use a Land Raider, and once the keyword is gone for other units it won't even be something I need to mention to my opponent for pickup games.

 

Sick of seeing everything get Star Warsed into oblivion.

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, SickSix said:

People keep saying "they just released a FB kit!" And I can easily say "they just released a Primaris Kit!" Bloat and costs are why it's crazy to think GW is going to maintain the FULL FB model line alongside an expanding Primaris line forever. They are a business. Cost efficiency is a thing. Shelf space is a thing. Publication bloat is definitely a thing in 40k. 

 

It's funny to me how people are claiming the New Termies are a "New FB kit" when really, they are a new Primaris kit. More and more FB only units keep getting Legends treatment and now the most iconic SM unit ever can be run as Primaris but somehow its a sign of FB longevity. Allowing them to be FB as well as Primaris is just appeasing all the SM players still running their FB armies. 

 

If they release newer MkVII tacticals or refresh any other FB only kits WITHOUT also giving them the Primaris keyword, then you have evidence of FB longevity.

 

Sure they will keep them in the rules a while longer while they continue to flesh out the full line of Primaris models, but it will be very interesting to see what new FB units get relegated to Legends when the 10th codex drops.

I’m sorry but the direct quote from GW was “These aren’t Primaris Terminators” so yeh sure you can say it all you like but it won’t make your statement correct…

So by your argument If GW releases upscaled MKVII Marines but they then say “Primaris can now wear the armour” it’s suddenly not evidence of FB longevity??? As that seems to be your logic behind the Terminators not being evidence 

 

Primaris [MKX] is a design language thats evident throughout the entire model range! The Terminators are FB remake in every conceivable way that matters design wise and are clear evidence of FB models sticking around in 40k because as long as that kit is in production that’s a FB kit in 40k…

Edited April 5, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[Marshal Reinhard]

3 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

“These aren’t Primaris Terminators”

Where's this quote from? The reveal article does not have this wording. Did someone on the stream say it?

[WARMASTER_]

6 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Where's this quote from? The reveal article does not have this wording. Did someone on the stream say it?

WarCom 10th announced article 

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/23/a-mindblowing-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000-is-coming/

[ZeroWolf]

I think the quote was more that that can be either FB or Primaris inside them and that Cawl couldn't improve the armour as it was already perfect...or words to that effect. Hence why both sides are claiming victory, as they can head cannon whoever they want in there.

 

Regardless of that though, I think we've got enough hints that the primaris keyword itself is disappearing (which is good), unless GW throw a curve ball and there's an option to grant them the keyword on the other side of the datacard.

 

That being said, lore wise, primaris aren't going anywhere certainly, but that's the only place where we'll see the distinction matter.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Certainly is there. Though the context of the text makes it clear its reffering to the suit of the armor. Though that wasn't really in question. Just the framing.

[Blindhamster]

23 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Where's this quote from? The reveal article does not have this wording. Did someone on the stream say it?

It actually was in the wording for the original article. But they also said both primaris and firstborn use the suits.

 

the issue is, primaris means different things to different people.

 

to people like warmaster, primaris means some kind of arbitrary design language (sorry, it is arbitrary as there are multiple very different design approaches to the primaris line)

 

to other people it simply means anything that doesn’t confirm to the already hugely varied earlier mks of armour marines had.

 

to others it refers to a scale and proportions more than specific model designs.

 

to others it refers to the lore and more specifically the actual marines.

 

of all the above, technically only the last group are actually correct. But there’s varied levels of validity to all the others as well. 
 

most likely primaris marines are going to be seen wearing armour with more and more details previously seen in earlier mks of armour than mkX, the Templar range hints at this already, as do some of the upgrade sprues for other chapters. Whilst the new terminators absolutely are an excellent tribute to the indomitus terminators we know and love (or hate), there are certainly some elements of their design that have more in common with the modern mkX tacticus marines than previous terminators (notably belt designs, abdomen design, bare head rebreather design, power sword design). But I think if we get new models with mk7, they’ll be the same size (not slightly smaller) as mkX marines are now and likely also share some of those elements, because as gw put it that’s the “modern” marine designs. I’d bet money that when we get the veterans, there going to be some obvious nods to early mks of armour designs on them too.

 

of the options kallas listed, I suspect we will see the whole thing be relegated to the lore and otherwise be quietly brushed aside in terms of rules and models. Marines will be marines again, but the damage has been done to the community clearly.

 

Edit:

and if we feel like saying “nuh uh, the terminators aren’t primaris!” This image is as valid for showing they are as the other one was that they aren’t, point is, the armour is terminator armour, it’s a suit. The marine inside can be either, which is likely going to be the way they go forward with all the stuff now I suspect

Edited April 5, 2023 by Blindhamster

[DesuVult]

For me it's tiresome the way some people act smug saying firstborn are going away then when any point is made that isn't true start acting offended.  Also the constant goalposts shifting, things nor counting one way bur counting the other.  Just ignoring some things or claiming they don't exist.  Like the plastic contemptor was but in the actual physical codex and that just doesn't count.  We get new terminators and they are explicitly said to be either but after years of people saying we wouldn't get any firstborn terminators those don't count.  It feels less like some people think firstborn are going away as much as they are invested in wanting them to go away to be proven right. 

[WARMASTER_]

20 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

to people like warmaster, primaris means some kind of arbitrary design language (sorry, it is arbitrary as there are multiple very different design approaches to the primaris line)

I’m too tired to reply fully but calling it arbitrary doesn’t reinforce your point as being correct… While the Primaris range has some variation it’s all Based on MKX with clear and overlapping design features throughout the entire range so there’s definitely a “Primaris” design ethos to GW, an ethos they clearly dont see as arbitrary as they’re stating “These aren’t Primaris Terminators”

 

Yes in lore they can now wear the armour but it doesn’t make it a “Primaris” kit as they’ve said 

[Blindhamster]

5 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

I’m too tired to reply fully but calling it arbitrary doesn’t reinforce your point as being correct… While the Primaris range has some variation it’s all Based on MKX with clear and overlapping design features throughout the entire range so there’s definitely a “Primaris” design ethos to GW, an ethos they clearly dont see as arbitrary as they’re stating “These aren’t Primaris Terminators”

 

Yes in lore they can now wear the armour but it doesn’t make it a “Primaris” kit as they’ve said 

Doesn’t make it a firstborn one either. Is the point.

 

it’s just terminators

 

p.s. I’m not invested in firstborn going away, I’m invested in it all just being marines again, so labelling things as one or the other is what I’m invested in avoiding (and so are GW apparently)

Edited April 5, 2023 by Blindhamster

[WARMASTER_]

NVM

Edited April 5, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[Marshal Reinhard]

I'll (probably in vain?) reiterate that the statement is reffering to the suits of armor specifically rather than the mariness. The additional sentence that cawl didn't mess with the TDA armor, while both marine types can wear it, makes that abundantly clear.

 

Clearly, some will read it as "this unit is strictly a classic unit (that can also be primaris)" or "The last bastion of classic marines have been given over to primaris (but classic marines can still take it)"

Edited April 5, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[Orange Knight]

Those veterans of the chapter can cross the Rubicon like everyone else lol.

 

In all seriousness, the new Terminators are probably as close to the classic designs as they could get, but they still have a few Primaris-like features. The boots and belt resemble Gravis, and the sword and face mask resemble Bladeguard and MkX Tacticus respectively.  They'll fit really well alongside the Primaris models, more so than the old kits for sure due to size.

 

Either way, with the keywords and transaport restrictions being lifted the faction will feel a lot more cohesive. The range divide created a community divide, and that wasn't a good thing.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

I mean they’ve just released a FB kit that’ll be in the range for about 15+ years that might be one reason why people believe it? Money also springs to mind! Surely that’s an easy one to see… They’ve  just made an entire range of FB HH kits that they can sell to 40k marines players why would they restrict themselves arbitrarily and lose sales 

did i miss something? what first born kit did they just release?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, DesuVult said:

For me it's tiresome the way some people act smug saying firstborn are going away then when any point is made that isn't true start acting offended.  Also the constant goalposts shifting, things nor counting one way bur counting the other.  Just ignoring some things or claiming they don't exist.  Like the plastic contemptor was but in the actual physical codex and that just doesn't count.  We get new terminators and they are explicitly said to be either but after years of people saying we wouldn't get any firstborn terminators those don't count.  It feels less like some people think firstborn are going away as much as they are invested in wanting them to go away to be proven right. 

in the end the terminators weren't a FB or a primaris kit. they're a generic marine kit. the fact they actively refused to limit terminators to FB to me is very indicative of what they're planning. 
it seems very obvious to me that they're easing people into the phase out of new FB kits.

4 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

I’m too tired to reply fully but calling it arbitrary doesn’t reinforce your point as being correct… While the Primaris range has some variation it’s all Based on MKX with clear and overlapping design features throughout the entire range so there’s definitely a “Primaris” design ethos to GW, an ethos they clearly dont see as arbitrary as they’re stating “These aren’t Primaris Terminators”

 

Yes in lore they can now wear the armour but it doesn’t make it a “Primaris” kit as they’ve said 

it also doesn't make it a FB kit either...that's the point of all their statements.

if they weren't willing to leave the most iconic space marine unit explicitly FB, then what hope does the rest of firstborn have of surviving?

[WARMASTER_]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

did i miss something? what first born kit did they just release?

I’ve been concise and clear in my prior arguments, maybe you could go back and read them, then you can be too rather then being purposely obtuse

Edited April 6, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[Orange Knight]

I had a read of this topic since the last time I posted, and the word "Firstborn" is starting to feel a little obnoxious. 

 

Notice how the article from GW doesn't refer to the old Marines as such. The term is a snide title, attempting to assert hierarchical superiority to the older Marines, when in truth it is inaccurate and clumsy. Some of the Primaris are older than any living loyalist Marine, and they are more closely tied to their Primarchs on a genetic level. 

 

Going back to topic, the distinction will be lost on the tabletop going forward. I imagine that some future Primaris units will closely mirror some of the older squads, namely the Veterans and eventual jump pack units. Once the distinctions start to blur, people will be faced with the same decision as always - which models will you purchase. If you go down the road of wanting to collect better scaled Marines, such as the new Terminators, it ultimately becomes irrelevant how you label them in your own head. You would have still bought new models made by GW. I believe that this is the reason why they are toning down the distinction in their marketing. 

 

The novels and lore have now established the Primaris and ingrained them in the setting. They will probably focus less on describing the differences in future books. As time goes on all Marines will be Primaris, and Primaris will be all Marines. The term might not even be used, given enough time. They'll simply be the Indomitus founding, that was unleashed during the darkest days of the 42nd millennium. 

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Or They'll swerve and give a nod to the old marines by having a single unit labeled Firstborn that are the truly ancient veterans with the greatest skill, having lived for at least twice as long as the oldest Primaris' subjective existance. Frankly, until a Primaris character comes into existance with the same pathos and skill as any of the Firstborn, who wasn't just coppy pasted over with the magic of the Rubrican, I'm going to hold on to the title.

 

That feeling of annoyance you're experiencing is what every truly loyal Space Marine fan has been feeling since GW decided to pull Cawl's pre-packaged frozen super marines out of their butt and tell us that 'No for real they're actually better in every way.' But there is no Primaris Sigismund, and there never will be. 

[DesuVult]

56 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The term is a snide title, attempting to assert hierarchical superiority to the older Marines. 

It's really not, and it is kind of weird to me that this is where your head is at on the term.

[Orange Knight]

5 minutes ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

Or They'll swerve and give a nod to the old marines by having a single unit labeled Firstborn that are the truly ancient veterans with the greatest skill, having lived for at least twice as long as the oldest Primaris' subjective existance. Frankly, until a Primaris character comes into existance with the same pathos and skill as any of the Firstborn, who wasn't just coppy pasted over with the magic of the Rubrican, I'm going to hold on to the title.

 

 

See I have no problem with something like this, but the unit needs a good justification in the lore and it needs to do something special on the tabletop.

 

If the oldest and most frail have now crossed (Dante) and have been empowered by doing so, why have these veterans chosen to ignore the examples set by their chapter masters (most people do play one of the established sub-factions)?

 

And they are veterans, how would they be different from a Primaris Veteran unit that can mix and match weapons and wargear freely?