Blurring between Firstborn and Primaris incoming with 10th?

[Orange Knight]

@Kallas

 

Yes, we already established that the old Marines have a few more flexible units, but the Primaris facilitate an army which is just as, if not more flexible as a whole. A few Rocket launchers spread about some units aren't as impactful as making an entire force of more durable Marines, or an entire force that can infiltrate, etc etc

 

And what do you mean the Terminators have not crossed the Rubicon? The Marine inside can be a Primaris, some of them most certainly have.

 

And yes, we know that the Primaris range is not yet complete. You mention mass jump packs and Drop Pods, both of which might well be available to Primaris before the end of the year. 

Eventually the Primaris will be able to field a more flexible jump pack army, combining durable close-fire support units (Inceptors), long range jump units (Suppressors) and close combat elements (The new Assault Marine type unit).

 

Ultimately, the Primaris are actually a more flexible force with units that offer new styles of combat not seen before in the Marine line.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Brother Casman]

Oh my god-emperor, could we just not? It's the same arguments over and over again.

 

I think the question of whether the firstborn and primaris lines will get blurred together is answered - not in this edition.

[Blindhamster]

56 minutes ago, Kallas said:

And Terminators also have not crossed the Rubicon too. They don't share the same design as Primaris, but Primaris have also adopted the Terminator loadouts. If they were actual Primaris loadouts, they'd all have one gun and no variety in the unit possible, but they have the same loadouts as Firstborn Terminators instead.

 

based on recent primaris sets, this isn't wholly accurate.

 

heavy intercessors get a heavy weapon

eradicators get a heavy weapon

assault intercessors get pistol and melee options

bladeguard get pistol options

primaris sword brethren and crusader squads have a lot of options

 

they're very similar in terms of setup to terminators actually.

 

In addition, most primaris units have variants of the same weapon for the squad too - which is flexibility at the list building stage, whats funny is non primaris players call it bloat and say it should be removed, primaris players usually enjoy the flexibility of having the options for those units to fit with whatever game plan you have, or theme you want the army to feel like it has.

 

Primaris units definitely aren't as flexible as:

tactical squads

devastator squads*

vanguard squads

sternguard squads (this one looks like it will change with the new unit that's coming).

But, there's definitely been a shift to provide some more options in primaris units, what they do though, is provide options that still broadly fit within the theme/role of the unit.

 

*to be fair though, most devastator squads are fielded as a unit all equipped the same, often the same was true of sternguard and vanguard too, the flexibility is in the list building, not necessarily what the squad does on the table.

 

 

 

56 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Primaris also cannot bring a mobile unit of melee fighters with en masse Invulnerable saves, with Drop Pods bringing in heavy firepower wherever it's needed, so does that not make Firstborn more flexible too? Point is that Firstborn units have more flexible options, which is what was said to start with, and not what you are twisting things around to promote Primaris with (and which isn't necessarily true unless you look at particular extremes).

 

point 1: only because said unit hasn't been done yet, it'll probably come, it wasn't a thing for space marines for... 4 of the editions (vanguard were only a thing from 5th, prior to that veteran assault marines were a blood angel exclusive thing and they didn't have invulnerable save options). But it's true that the primaris melee unit is not mobile, it does have en masse invulnerable saves and decent melee weapons though...

point 2: if rumours end up true and transport options open up, then i suspect eradicators in drop pods will be very popular. But even now, plasma inceptors are roughly the equivalent to a drop pod devastator squad.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Anyway. Firstborn are more customisable, rather than more flexible IMO, there is a distinction, purely in that list building still promotes tailoring firstborn units to particular tasks, the one exception to the flexibility argument I would 100% back, is tactical squads, they're very flexible, but even then, there's a reason that people traditionally build them with a specific role in mind, the las-plas tactical squad for example is essentially 2 (3 assuming sergeant has a combi) good guns and between 2 and 7 ablative wounds. Vanguard have loads of options, when you see them on the table, they're almost always hammers and shields or a claw and shields, sternguard could have a 5 man squad with each model having a different combi weapon, you don't see that though, you see a squad with them all equipped the same. Because you aren't mixing and matching weapon options generally, it's a bit of a fallacy to say they're more flexible.

 

but, the above isn't intended as a negative or a pro for firstborn or primaris, more to highlight that whilst there is certainly going to be a subset of players that go for whacky super varied loadouts on their squads, that isn't the norm with firstborn builds and never really was. I suspect we'll see this line blur, with some options continuing to slip away from firstborn units (we lost a lot to legends in 8th) and more options being added to new primaris units. But I do still think eventually the lines will blend (rather than either one being dropped), even if it apparently wont be 10th.

 

edit: elaboration

I guess I'm essentially saying that because people typically built firstborn squads with as close to a mono loadout, single intended role as possible, there's very little difference if it's one datasheet with lots of options or two datasheets with fewer options, but a clearer intended role for the sheet in the first place, once on the tabletop the units deployed still typically have a specific role in mind and tend to be less flexible.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Blindhamster
elaboration...

[Kallas]

10 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

And what do you mean the Terminators have not crossed the Rubicon? The Marine inside can be a Primaris, some of them most certainly have.

It was in response to " the Terminators themselves have crossed the Rubicon." Some have, some haven't. Saying that the "the Terminators themselves" have implies that they all have, which isn't true.

 

7 minutes ago, Brother Casman said:

Oh my god-emperor, could we just not? It's the same arguments over and over again.

Yeah, it is. But people keep pushing, so push back is needed. Not gonna sit quietly while Primaris crap is pushed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

It's also entirely the fault of GW bringing out a new line of Marines which are entirely separate (but totally not separate) from the existing ones. Making Primaris Lieutenants not able to join a Firstborn squad (or, presumably, vice versa) is such a brain dead move and only serves to reinforce this issue, not resolve it in any meaningful way.

 

11 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Yes, we already established that the old Marines have a few more flexible units, but the Primaris facilitate an army which is just as, if not more flexible as a whole. A few Rocket launchers spread about some units aren't as impactful as making an entire force of more durable Marines, or an entire force that can infiltrate, etc etc

Except it's not just a few Rocket Launchers spread out across the army, it's that the entire army can shift to accomodate a new role without changing the units entirely. That is, they are more flexible.

 

15 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

And yes, we know that the Primaris range is not yet complete. You mention mass jump packs and Drop Pods, both of which might well be available to Primaris before the end of the year. 

Eventually the Primaris will be able to field a more flexible jump pack army, combining durable close-fire support units (Inceptors), long range jump units (Suppressors) and close combat elements (The new Assault Marine type unit).

Ah ok, so Primaris have more flexibility, because of units that don't exist, got it! 

 

The only unique combat role that Primaris have is jump pack equipped ranged units (ie, Inceptors, and kind of Suppressors even though they don't have Jump Packs but their rules are exactly Jump Packs...). No other unit does a thing that was not already present in the Marine line.

[ZeroWolf]

While it's more than likely that we'll have jump pack primaris melee before years end, I'm less sure that we'll get new drop pod models. Aside from individual releases of the launch box kits (aside from which two HQ models will be locked to the starter sets) and the aforementioned jump troops, all the space marine rumours have regarded refreshes for other chapters (namely BA and DA).

 

As for the matter at hand, I'd say a complete blurring is now looking to be several editions away....assuming GW doesn't just say that everyone has crossed the Rubicon to make life easier for them. I can't see a solution here that everyone will be 100% completely happy with.

[Kallas]

5 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

In addition, most primaris units have variants of the same weapon for the squad too - which is flexibility at the list building stage, whats funny is non primaris players call it bloat and say it should be removed, primaris players usually enjoy the flexibility of having the options for those units to fit with whatever game plan you have, or theme you want the army to feel like it has.

Mostly, that has been in response to Primaris players saying Firstborn are bloat. Or, to put it more succintly : Orange Knight always banging on about FB being bloat, but Primaris being at least as, if not more, bloated.

 

6 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

point 1: only because said unit hasn't been done yet, it'll probably come, it wasn't a thing for space marines for... 4 of the editions (vanguard were only a thing from 5th, prior to that veteran assault marines were a blood angel exclusive thing and they didn't have invulnerable save options). But it's true that the primaris melee unit is not mobile, it does have en masse invulnerable saves and decent melee weapons though...

point 2: if rumours end up true and transport options open up, then i suspect eradicators in drop pods will be very popular. But even now, plasma inceptors are roughly the equivalent to a drop pod devastator squad.

Again, these are things that do not exist, but are speculated to come. I'm sure they will come, so GW can milk wallets as much as possible, but the assertion that these things exist and so make Primaris the same are pretty ridiculous.

 

7 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

tactical squads, they're very flexible, but even then, there's a reason that people traditionally build them with a specific role in mind

[...]

but, the above isn't intended as a negative or a pro for firstborn or primaris, more to highlight that whilst there is certainly going to be a subset of players that go for whacky super varied loadouts on their squads, that isn't the norm with firstborn builds and never really was.

And this wasn't even my point: my point was that flexible options lets a player equip their unit for different purposes. Giving a squad a Meltagun allows it to threaten vehicles/monsters, where a unit with only rifles cannot; but they could instead go for a Flamer to (ostensibly) improve their anti-infantry power.

 

Giving each Devastator was not the point, but it is an option is someone wants to (and also is typically used in some way, such as the competitive loadout of 3x Grav Cannons and 1x Multimelta to take advantage of the Signum/Armorium Cherub). A Tactical Squad can equipped with Las/Plas to fulfil a role; or they could have Heavy Bolter/Flamer to fill a different role; that is, they are more flexible than the counterpart of the Intercessors, which cannot equip differently to take on different targets: they only have ABR/BR/SBR, which are all still firmly in the anti-infantry category, and the AGL is a light special weapon at best - it gives some added punch, and could be considered an option, but realistically it doesn't change their available targets.

 

9 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

based on recent primaris sets, this isn't wholly accurate.

 

heavy intercessors get a heavy weapon

eradicators get a heavy weapon

assault intercessors get pistol and melee options

bladeguard get pistol options

primaris sword brethren and crusader squads have a lot of options

So does that make them more or less flexible? Because Orange Knight's argument was that having units with fixed loadouts is more flexible, but units that have flexible options are less flexible somehow? And it's still ignoring that having units dedicated to a certain role is still possible for Firstborn (eg, the aforementioned Devastators all kitted for anti-tank).

 

17 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

But I do still think eventually the lines will blend (rather than either one being dropped)

Nah, they'll drop Firstborn somewhere in 10th I expect, probably in Codex: Space Marines 10.2. They know that they can release units with no options and people will buy them, so they can repackage Devastators into four separate units and get 4x the profit.

  

5 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

As for the matter at hand, I'd say a complete blurring is now looking to be several editions away....assuming GW doesn't just say that everyone has crossed the Rubicon to make life easier for them. I can't see a solution here that everyone will be 100% completely happy with.

There definitely won't be a clean solution. GW made their decision 10 years ago when they started on Primaris in the first place, they're just trying to reduce backlash to the eventual Squatting by dragging it out for a decade.

[b1soul]

GW started Primaris back in 2013?

[Crimson Longinus]

I'm still hoping that the transport limitations are gone. I just want to put my primaris in drop pods!

[WrathOfTheLion]

2 minutes ago, b1soul said:

GW started Primaris back in 2013?

Yeah, you can find design interviews with Jes Goodwin and all where they talk about pretty much drafting the entire range in 6th Edition. The idea for it may've even gone back to sometime during 5th Edition. So the concept art and even some preliminary sculpts for even a lot of the newer stuff coming out could be up to 10 years old.

[Orange Knight]

@Kallas

 

You mention push-back, but I merely addressed a comment you made initially, not the other way around.

 

Anyway, I don't believe that GW will release a new Drop Pod model as the existing one still works well and looks decent. The kit is wonky and not fun to work with however, they should probably update it for that reason. The doors never quite shut and open properly so I always end up keeping them closed permanently.

 

@b1soul

 

No, the Primaris are around 6 years old, but were probably in development 2 years before that. Long ago, around the time of their release I was told that GW have enough ideas and units planned to last for 10 years of releases. There might be even more now.

[WrathOfTheLion]

@Orange Knight

 

Primaris are six years from release, but obviously further back than that. From what Jes Goodwin has said in interviews, it goes back a lot further than just 2 years before release date. It also wasn't a spur of the moment choice, they had sketched out pretty much the entire range during 6E. So the ~2013 date sounds right to me.

 

I'll have to dig up the interview at some point, I think it's on the gw youtube channel and was released around the time of Shadowspear. There might have been a second one around the start of 9E as well.

Edited April 13, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Orange Knight]

@WrathOfTheLion

 

I can believe that, it's very interesting either way.

 

I think we can recognise that the Marine range was so well detailed in terms of both models and lore that it probably stifled creativity. The simple act of adding a new unit required mental gymnastics, retcons to the force organisation and history, etc etc.

I think it's a lesson in to why they shouldn't write the lore in such a detailed way. It leaves no breathing room, and it had the secondary effect of making people entrenched against change.

 

Also, from what I recall, the various model designers were happy to work on new things after refreshing the same models for decades. But there is no way that they simply decided to release Primaris one day, the discussion probably went to the top and back again several times as the direction was considered.

 

 

[ZeroWolf]

Now that's an interview I'd be interested in hearing.

[Kallas]

Yeah, GW is well known for having long-term plans. Primaris were released 6 years ago, but they will have been modelled and planned at least two years in advance of that, with longer range plans and discussions likely several years before that, since you don't design model ranges that you're not sure you're going to release. 10 years from today is a pretty easy estimate.

 

17 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

You mention push-back, but I merely addressed a comment you made initially, not the other way around.

And my talk of push-back was in reference to someone complaining about the cyclical nature of these fruitless discussions. Inevitably, people will say either that Primaris shouldn't exist, or that Firstborn should go away, or some kind of variance on that theme and the other side will push back against it. I'm well aware of my own biases, and will stand by my opinions as you will yours, but they are both invariably cyclical.

 

19 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Anyway, I don't believe that GW will release a new Drop Pod model as the existing one still works well and looks decent. The kit is wonky and not fun to work with however, they should probably update it for that reason. The doors never quite shut and open properly so I always end up keeping them closed permanently.

They'll release a new model, because they can make slight changes and charge more for it, while squeezing as much value out of the old one as possible. Making a new mould for the old design will cost as much as a new one anyway, so make a new one and get people to double dip and buy both over time. It's what they're doing anyway.

[Kallas]

7 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I think it's a lesson in to why they shouldn't write the lore in such a detailed way.

Far better than writing it since 8th ed and Primaris. The lore there is as loose as possible, which is way worse.

 

The setting is plenty large enough to allow for new units and 'inventions' (and with existing lore justifications for new technology that don't fly in the face of the settings' core themes: eg, the STC).

[Crimson Longinus]

10 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

@WrathOfTheLion

 

I can believe that, it's very interesting either way.

 

I think we can recognise that the Marine range was so well detailed in terms of both models and lore that it probably stifled creativity. The simple act of adding a new unit required mental gymnastics, retcons to the force organisation and history, etc etc.

I think it's a lesson in to why they shouldn't write the lore in such a detailed way. It leaves no breathing room, and it had the secondary effect of making people entrenched against change.

 

Also, from what I recall, the various model designers were happy to work on new things after refreshing the same models for decades. But there is no way that they simply decided to release Primaris one day, the discussion probably went to the top and back again several times as the direction was considered.

 

 

 

Yeah, this is another thing I like about the primaris besides looking great; freedom for sculptors to do new units. And sure, some are duds (looking at you desolators) but most have been nice, and what's best, they can keep innovating.

[WrathOfTheLion]

24 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

@WrathOfTheLion

 

I can believe that, it's very interesting either way.

 

I think we can recognise that the Marine range was so well detailed in terms of both models and lore that it probably stifled creativity. The simple act of adding a new unit required mental gymnastics, retcons to the force organisation and history, etc etc.

I think it's a lesson in to why they shouldn't write the lore in such a detailed way. It leaves no breathing room, and it had the secondary effect of making people entrenched against change.

 

Also, from what I recall, the various model designers were happy to work on new things after refreshing the same models for decades. But there is no way that they simply decided to release Primaris one day, the discussion probably went to the top and back again several times as the direction was considered.

 

 

To them, it was mostly model design along with that, yeah. So they designed them as a new range, the whole 'Primaris' thing and all the weird lore and all that went with it was a fairly last minute change in the process if I remember right. The miniature designers weren't terribly concerned with that, their goals were to just make something new.

 

This is a link to the interview I remember.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[KurtanionNZ]

10 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

Yeah, this is another thing I like about the primaris besides looking great; freedom for sculptors to do new units. And sure, some are duds (looking at you desolators) but most have been nice, and what's best, they can keep innovating.

 

I'm torn on the Primaris range because there's a lot I like about the overall sculpting of it but there are design choices that really throw me off. I love the look of the Assault Intercessors in particular, the posing in particular makes them look really dynamic. The Bladeguard too, I think the Primaris design choices really lend themselves to beautiful melee models. 

 

But I really dislike the choices around most of the ranged weaponry. To me, the Cawl Pattern Bolt Rifle is just too big, it's ridiculous. I think it almost detracts from the scaling up of Primaris by putting these massive guns in their hands and considering how much more proportional and realistic their overall design is, its weird to give them a gun that they look like they're physically incapable of bringing up to their shoulder and looking down the sights of. If the Intercessors were armed with boltguns that were of a similar scale and design to the weapons the updated Black Templar Neophytes received, I think I'd like them a lot more. 

 

You could apply my criticism to the Desolators, Vanguard Suppressors, Hellblasters etc. These designs all just look a bit silly to me because of their weapons, its too jarring visually. 

 

[phandaal]

13 hours ago, Brother Casman said:

Oh my god-emperor, could we just not? It's the same arguments over and over again.

 

I think the question of whether the firstborn and primaris lines will get blurred together is answered - not in this edition.

 

They will be blurred, but not in the "Space Marines are Space Marines" sense. With the removal of the Primaris keyword, we will see more of a blurring in terms of what can and cannot ride in transports, use strategems etc.

 

For most people that will probably be enough.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

3 hours ago, KurtanionNZ said:

 

The Bladeguard too, I think the Primaris design choices really lend themselves to beautiful melee models. 

 

 

I agree with your design statements but I don’t agree that Primaris are actually beautiful models. I know you’re talking about the positives of the newer melee focused marines, but I think most people are just awestruck with them being larger models which “fits” their idea of what a space marine should look like on the tabletop. 
 

Their bodily proportions still are off and if you look long enough at their legs you see how goofily lacking they are in femur length.. the very same issue legacy marines have. IMO the plastic MkVI Marines are much better looking and proportionate marines, but good luck arguing against the cultist Primaris fervor on the internet. I’m glad people get to enjoy their models, but I really don’t think Primaris marines are revolution of scale they’re talked up to be. 

[Bouargh]

20 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I think it's a lesson in to why they shouldn't write the lore in such a detailed way. It leaves no breathing room, and it had the secondary effect of making people entrenched against change.

 

 

Well, yes and no. Lore has shifted from being a contextual stuff to support miniature to a whole Business Unit a GW has diversified activities in editing and all the Entertainment Licensing associated. In that way, they need to develop detailled lore, but on specific features, let say within controlled boundaries.

 

But then comes the othe BU, miniature making. in that sense, creating new units in existing armies or new armies can become indeed tricky if everything is locked down by a too detailled lore. However this is easy to bypass:

1. Shall we care of Loremasters that are in the hobby for 10-20-30 y? This is a marginal fringe of the customer base, a potentialy toxic one  for sure, especially as Loremasters and Oldies (as I am) spent our time moaning and arguing at each and every change, but we are a minority that can be ignored in an elegant way. By elegant, I let each one decide how he/she prefer being treated....

2. You can overcome this lore trap simply by making the hstroy advance, what they are doing in fact from GW. And ban the Lore from Codices - what they are also doing slowly but surely.

 

Te real issue is that the lore has been frozen for decades, copied and reproduced without substantial changes in COdices from 2nd to 7th Ed. in most of its content. Trick is that the lore has not undergne a dynamic managment and explotation in a large lap of time which favoured crystallizing habbits and opinions. The real lesson for me is therefore that you should always keep moving and avoid brnging to the public something that does not really directly support your product. Lore shuld have been reduced earlier when 40k shifted from 1st Ed Role Play mentality to Miniature table top game. 

 

But I am may be an extremist.

[b1soul]

People used to say 40K is a setting not a narrative, but I like to say..."Why can't it be both?"

 

Gradual evolution of the meta-plot is a good thing. To our eyes, the continents are static...but over millions of years, they drift

[Blindhamster]

7 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

I agree with your design statements but I don’t agree that Primaris are actually beautiful models. I know you’re talking about the positives of the newer melee focused marines, but I think most people are just awestruck with them being larger models which “fits” their idea of what a space marine should look like on the tabletop. 
 

Their bodily proportions still are off and if you look long enough at their legs you see how goofily lacking they are in femur length.. the very same issue legacy marines have. IMO the plastic MkVI Marines are much better looking and proportionate marines, but good luck arguing against the cultist Primaris fervor on the internet. I’m glad people get to enjoy their models, but I really don’t think Primaris marines are revolution of scale they’re talked up to be. 

 

not going to argue too much, but...

taking the walking intercessor from dark imperium as an example, purely because its a pretty neat upright pose so easier for measuring:

height: 4.1cm (my one has the head on a bit of an angle so possibly actually a little taller than that)

top of head to groin: 2.3cm

femur length (based on middle of knee to top of hip as tha is where your femur is lol): 1.2cm

 

that looks roughly correct to me. its not 100% but its pretty  close to what it should be, i don't own any HH marines so can't measure those.

[Orange Knight]

I do happen to own the MkVI Marines from the Horus Heresy.

 

I have 80 of them.

 

The proportions are not better than the Intercessors, but they are very close. Probably the best proportioned classical Astartes kit. A lot of people don't like beakies, from what I hear online. I found that a bit surprising. 

 

Either way, the humble Intercessor is probably the best realised regular marine in power armour.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Primaris are NOT true scale. Never were. They do in fact suffer from the same things that old marines do, just to a significantly less degree.

 

The MKVI are pretty comparable, I say as someone who don't actually own any, though I do own some bits of some. Noticeably, they have smaller heads and hands, which is one of the main faults of heroic scale. Quite possible they are the best proportioned marines at this point given that they have that comparable height with the heads and hands also smaller. Unfortunately that doesn't mix well all that well with my existing models.

 

The heads aren't so small that I find a noticeably difference (though the only one 've used so far I stuck on a phobos marines), but I was mainly surprised at tiny the hands are. Made me reconsider using a sword hand bit i'd collected as a bit.

 

EDIT: That said, I do quite like the fact that primaris have larger weapons, if only for the fact that it finally, F I N A L L Y (!) introduces some granularity (did I use that word right?) between humans with boltguns and astartes bolters. Always bugged me that these were equal in size and strength. RPG's said there was actually a massive difference between the two, but the imprecisition of the d6 scale in 40k proper meant that both human and astartes bolters landed on the extreme ends of the same bracket. No explanation for why they were of equal size though. With bolt rifles we finally have some difference.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard