Blurring between Firstborn and Primaris incoming with 10th?

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, WARMASTER_ said:

The issue is @SickSix by saying “Forget the Terminators” you’re just wilfully ignoring the most definitive piece of evidence that GW won’t stop producing a FB kit for 40k as it’ll be in the range for 15+ years [unless the mould breaks] so until then you’ll have to just “Die on that hill” Because GW will be making and supporting a FB unit for a good long while

 

[Ive gone extensively into what I mean by FB in this thread so I won’t reiterate the point ad nauseam]

 

The fact its 'also primaris' points the flaw in the argument.

 

This isnt proof that original marines are getting new kits. Its proof that GW is moving away from there being a distinction at all because they recognize it was a poorly received mutilation of the lore.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

36 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

What conflation would that be exactly?

 

The conflation between model range and lore, or more accurately, your misrepresentation that "Primaris" is a reference to the armor pattern and the out-of-context line in reference to the new Terminator models that "these are not Primaris Terminators." The former is contradicted by any substantive reading of the lore which makes it abundantly clear that Primaris refers to the men inside the armor. And the latter is you simply ignoring everything else GW has said about the new models, where they've made it abundantly clear that the men inside the new Terminator models can be Firstborn OR Primaris. So the line you're hanging half of your argument on was clearly intended to be read as "these are not JUST Primaris Terminators."

 

The appearance of a new version of a classic armor pattern in Primaris-scale (something you ignore because it doesn't fit your proprietary definition of "Primaris") is in no way evidence of GW continuing to produce Firstborn models. "Firstborn" isn't an armor pattern any more than "Primaris" is. Rather, the release of upscaled Terminators is evidence that they're going to continue to produce Primaris-scale models but (SHOCK!) they're not opposed to the idea of enticing Firstborn players to also purchase these new models, despite them being wildly out of scale with their existing army.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

14 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

I’ve been concise and clear in my prior arguments, maybe you could go back and read them, then you can be too rather then being purposely obtuse

Concise? Debatable.

Wrong? Undoubtedly.

[WARMASTER_]

 

3 hours ago, Lord Nord said:

 

The conflation between model range and lore, or more accurately, your misrepresentation that "Primaris" is a reference to the armor pattern and the out-of-context line in reference to the new Terminator models that "these are not Primaris Terminators." The former is contradicted by any substantive reading of the lore which makes it abundantly clear that Primaris refers to the men inside the armor. And the latter is you simply ignoring everything else GW has said about the new models, where they've made it abundantly clear that the men inside the new Terminator models can be Firstborn OR Primaris. So the line you're hanging half of your argument on was clearly intended to be read as "these are not JUST Primaris Terminators."

 

The appearance of a new version of a classic armor pattern in Primaris-scale (something you ignore because it doesn't fit your proprietary definition of "Primaris") is in no way evidence of GW continuing to produce Firstborn models. "Firstborn" isn't an armor pattern any more than "Primaris" is. Rather, the release of upscaled Terminators is evidence that they're going to continue to produce Primaris-scale models but (SHOCK!) they're not opposed to the idea of enticing Firstborn players to also purchase these new models, despite them being wildly out of scale with their existing army.

Im still not seeing your conflation I’ve been clear in both aspects models + lore you’re in fact conflating the both yourself…

 

Sorry, what? The Primaris model range up to this point has literally been based on a specific armour pattern! MK X to be exact… as every single Primaris Marine to date [Until this release] has worn some form MK X iteration so please explain to me how it’s not the foundational design element of the entire range and a clear marker for the term “Primaris”?
 

Im not misrepresenting the quote or taking it out of context at all you’re just not understanding what GW is trying to say… “These aren’t Primaris Terminators. Not even Belisarius Cawl is able to improve upon this ancient and holy armour pattern” implies in real world context these aren’t based on MK X armour and as such aren’t Primaris…

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Concise? Debatable.

Wrong? Undoubtedly.

Once again you’ve added a constructive idea to the debate… 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

37 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Once again you’ve added a constructive idea to the debate… 

There’s nothing further to be added to the debate.

the terminators are not a FB kit.

the terminators are not a primaris kit.

the terminators are just a space marine kit.

 

i made that statement on page 1 or 2 already, it’s a factual statement, and as of now only GW has the ability to invalidate that statement. 
this debate is just people having a bolter measuring contest over what type of made up super soldiers their toy soldiers are.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[SickSix]

2 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

 

Im still not seeing your conflation I’ve been clear in both aspects models + lore you’re in fact conflating the both yourself…

 

Sorry, what? The Primaris model range up to this point has literally been based on a specific armour pattern! MK X to be exact… as every single Primaris Marine to date [Until this release] has worn some form MK X iteration so please explain to me how it’s not the foundational design element of the entire range and a clear marker for the term “Primaris”?
 

Im not misrepresenting the quote or taking it out of context at all you’re just not understanding what GW is trying to say… “These aren’t Primaris Terminators. Not even Belisarius Cawl is able to improve upon this ancient and holy armour pattern” implies in real world context these aren’t based on MK X armour and as such aren’t Primaris…

Wait, your the one blatantly conflating ideas. Primaris refers directly to Cawl altered Marines. Mark X armor is, armor. It literally has its own designation, Mark X. Because gamers may use Primaris wrongly to refer to armor marks is irrelevant to the point that GW is clearly making moves to not support "NON-CAWL-ALTERED Marines."

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, SickSix said:

Wait, your the one blatantly conflating ideas. Primaris refers directly to Cawl altered Marines. Mark X armor is, armor. It literally has its own designation, Mark X. Because gamers may use Primaris wrongly to refer to armor marks is irrelevant to the point that GW is clearly making moves to not support "NON-CAWL-ALTERED Marines."

On the tabletop primaris and mkX armored marines were the same thing, up until now.

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

This thread is locked for a 48-hour cool down period.

 

This conversation is degenerating into an argument dominated by a few fraters with both sides conflating and fogging issues, as well as aggressively pursuing points in order to gain the upper hand in a conflict where no one is going to surrender their position. While no one has yet to clearly violate the rules of conduct, it is understood from the tone that some are running head long to cross that line.

 

Please use this time out period to rethink your approaches and turn this argument back into a conversation. Contact me via PM if you have any questions or concerns. I will also entertain the possibility of reopening the thread sooner if combatants can assure me that they will assist in turning this conversation around.

 

=][=

 

[Brother Lunkhead]

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GAME ON

 

Let's keep our opinions in perspective.

 

=][=

 

[Blindhamster]

Anyone else interested to see the new veteran unit? I’m hoping for some nods to earlier mks and some traditional veteran iconography mixed in!

[Crimson Longinus]

4 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Anyone else interested to see the new veteran unit? I’m hoping for some nods to earlier mks and some traditional veteran iconography mixed in!

 

I'm pretty sure I saw a MK7 helmet on one of them in the trailer. 

 

Like I said earlier, how the rules will be handled is also interesting. Will they just be the new sternguard or will there be separate datasheets for the primaris and the OG version. 

[Blindhamster]

5 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

I'm pretty sure I saw a MK7 helmet on one of them in the trailer. 

 

Like I said earlier, how the rules will be handled is also interesting. Will they just be the new sternguard or will there be separate datasheets for the primaris and the OG version. 

I kind of hope it’s just new sternguard, but with some models clearly being mkx

[ZeroWolf]

I want to say it'll be the veterans that we'll see next for space marine regarding reveals and that'll answer the questions, since we'll have a name and a look at the unit (likely monopose with few options till the multipart kit comes out...if it gets one)

[Marshal Reinhard]

Agreed on feeling like I saw a mk7 helmet on one of the veterans in the trailer, (the sergeant even?)

 

That said, I'm pretty much convinced the models will all be mkx, with perhaps one or two models having signs of older marks on them, like the aforementioned helmet. We have prescedent with some models in the BT refresh doing the same.

[Blindhamster]

1 minute ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Agreed on feeling like I saw a mk7 helmet on one of the veterans in the trailer, (the sergeant even?)

 

That said, I'm pretty much convinced the models will all be mkx, with perhaps one or two models having signs of older marks on them, like the aforementioned helmet. We have prescedent with some models in the BT refresh doing the same.

That’s what I’m expecting, I don’t see any being 100% earlier mk, but I can totally see some of them having early mk helms, let’s or torsos!

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Like I said earlier, how the rules will be handled is also interesting. Will they just be the new sternguard or will there be separate datasheets for the primaris and the OG version. 

 

We already have the melee Veterans in the form of Bladeguard so a shooty equivalent would be good. Veteran Intercessors suffered to some extent in that they did not have a great loadout to leverage their their extra attack. Veteran Assault Intercessors worked better but were just outshone by either BGVs or Firstborn units for most applications. Regular Assault Intercessors at least had the advantage of being Troops so had some value in BA and SW lists.

 

The issue with Primaris Sternguard is simply that Hellblasters exist. Unless they carry a particularly good or cost-efficient loadout, they are going to struggle to compare with what Assault Hellblasters can dish out.

[WrathOfTheLion]

18 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

We already have the melee Veterans in the form of Bladeguard so a shooty equivalent would be good. Veteran Intercessors suffered to some extent in that they did not have a great loadout to leverage their their extra attack. Veteran Assault Intercessors worked better but were just outshone by either BGVs or Firstborn units for most applications. Regular Assault Intercessors at least had the advantage of being Troops so had some value in BA and SW lists.

 

The issue with Primaris Sternguard is simply that Hellblasters exist. Unless they carry a particularly good or cost-efficient loadout, they are going to struggle to compare with what Assault Hellblasters can dish out.

I mentioned earlier in the N&R thread, but in the art, it looks like there's one with a chainsword. So I wonder if they'll get access to power weapons and then some degree of access to combi weapons, filling more or less the same role as Chosen from CSM.

[Blindhamster]

Yeah the art would maybe suggest that veteran intercessors may actually just be getting a kit of their own, with gear options maybe. 
 

ideal world would be a classic veteran style unit with very versatile weapon options though

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Anyone else interested to see the new veteran unit? I’m hoping for some nods to earlier mks and some traditional veteran iconography mixed in!

I don’t really care what design elements they use in the armor, as long as it’s astartes armor.

 

i just want decent stats, a variety of weapons options, and decent points cost.

[Orange Knight]

I'm looking forward to seeing the Veterans but I'm not sure exactly how they'll stand out in a list yet?

 

The combi-weapons are cool but we can already take entire units of plasma, melta, and alongside this release we'll have a flamer squad.

 

It would be really interesting if these Veterans are counted as a battleline unit? That's something they could have over the other dedicated squads, and of course they could have some unique rules that we aren't aware of yet.

 

Of course in terms of models, I'm sure they'll be excellent and they'll scratch an itch many players have had for a unit that could be customised (although I have a feeling true customisation won't come until their multipart kit release).

 

Now, there's one other unit that could get a new lease of life in 10th - The big chonks themselves - Centurions!

The Devastator variants really need to be stronger in close combat - they look like they have power fists but for some reason lack any close combat capabilities. Obviously the giant drills should be superior weapons, but it wouldn't hurt the Devastator variant to have some Str8 2 Damage attacks. The Assault Variants have solid shooting and epic close combat attacks, and those mini-mech suits the Sisters have keep their impressive close combat attacks even though they sport impressive ranged weapons like Multi Meltas.

[Blindhamster]

I think the thing they will have over the other squads mentioned, is more attacks and probably access to some melee options, tbh I kinda expect them to have some similarities to sword brethren.

 

but yea, it’ll be interesting to see what they actually do

[Bryan Blaire]

It would be really interesting to see, model-wise, the incorporation of earlier armor Mk materials, similar to how Calgar’s new armor was supposed to incorporate/be an adaptation of the Armor of Antilochus (Vigilus Defiant, pg. 170), for the veterans - what is the method that is used - could we see elements of previous breastplates, or just adhered icons, or will it merely be older helms and pauldrons, etc.  MkX is supposed to be highly adaptable, so would something like a greave be able to be incorporated in some way from a suit of Mk6?

 

Even if it happened, would they make it look that way on the model, or would it be seamless and only be told to us in lore blurbs?  We probably wouldn’t notice anything for a Mk7 helm or Mk3 pauldron other than the appearance - but do they just slap the old one on, or are modifications done to it on the underside to make it enhanced or work well with the MkX suit?

 

That’s what would be interesting to find out to me.

[redmapa]

GW has already being mixing older armor marks into the primaris armor, bothe the victrix guard and sword brethren have leg armors that are a single piece similar to mk6 and the BT characters all have segmented armor in their legs same as mk2 so following this small trend I think Veterans could have armor sections similar to mk7 to connect them visually to the tactical squad and act as an update to that kit and that would also fit with the idea of Primaris following legion era formations so their veterans should be as versatile as a tactical squad as they are in the 30k army list.

 

 

[Orange Knight]

So how do people feel about the distinction not being taken away? The Primaris units can only be led by Primaris characters, and the word is still being assigned to units.

 

Hopefully the transports are unlocked for all, but at this point I have doubts about this being the case. The Drop Pod is probably the most key transport option that needs to transport Primaris.