Blurring between Firstborn and Primaris incoming with 10th?

[Karhedron]

6 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

So how do people feel about the distinction not being taken away? The Primaris units can only be led by Primaris characters, and the word is still being assigned to units.

 

 

Disappointing if true but no worse off than we are now. I am more peeved at the fact my Sanguianary Priest is probably going to be a lot more limited in terms of which units he can heal. I suspect he won't be bringing back my Attack Bikes or Inceptors in 10th. Then again, if stuff is more survivable in 10th, maybe they will last long to contribute without having to dedicate a character just to keeping them alive. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

 

[Orange Knight]

You make a great point about some specific heroes. I think GW will be under pressure to update quite a lot of different units and characters.

[Blindhamster]

39 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

 

Disappointing if true but no worse off than we are now. I am more peeved at the fact my Sanguianary Priest is probably going to be a lot more limited in terms of which units he can heal. I suspect he won't be bringing back my Attack Bikes or Inceptors in 10th. Then again, if stuff is more survivable in 10th, maybe they will last long to contribute without having to dedicate a character just to keeping them alive. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

 

 

Technically it is worse, previously you could have a firstborn character buffing primaris units and the same in reverse, looks like that won't be a thing now.

 

Overall I feel like the change is even more asinine than the transport thing personally.

I sort of get the logic of it in that I can see why maybe you should only let terminator characters join terminator units, or only let bike characters join bike units, but... regular power armour is regular power armour, so that feels more than a little dumb to me, a primaris lieutenant is more or less identical to a regular one in terms of stats as far as we know

[Sea Creature]

As chapters get their updates like Black Templars it’ll be less of an issue.

[One Paul Murray]

Quick thought for people on here; I've seen a lot of people stating that it will be fine if GW remove the distinction between Firstborn and Primaris, and just bring out an upgrade kit so that (for example) Intercessors can add special weapons.

 

Why is there an assumption that GW go that way, when their new kits are mostly single weapon type? Even the Terminator squad seemed to have a suspiciously fixed setup.

 

Are people going to be happy if GW reduces the gap, but by going forward with Firstborn squads having to take fixed weapon load outs, rather than the other way round?

[Kallas]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Overall I feel like the change is even more asinine than the transport thing personally.

It sounds about right. Primaris have been out long enough that people have bought into the awful vehicles that they needed to run mechanised lists, now they can sell Primaris players older vehicles too! Win-win for GW there.

 

22 minutes ago, One Paul Murray said:

Are people going to be happy if GW reduces the gap, but by going forward with Firstborn squads having to take fixed weapon load outs, rather than the other way round?

Not really, no. That's basically the same as saying to get rid of Firstborn. Part of what makes Firstborn units distinct from Primaris units is that they are flexible: you can equip them with various weapons instead of being locked into one kind of rifle, or one kind of plasma gun. If they condensed the lines and made Firstborn 'pick a rifle' then it's not a Firstborn unit any more, it's just restrictive Primaris stuff.

 

The whole point of the Codex set up was to have units be flexible. Primaris are going back to the way the Legions did it (which made sense when you had much larger formations: not so much when you're still in the rough ballpark of 1,000-2,000 Marines), which is kind of the opposite of the Codex: fixed unit loadouts with mutual support between squads instead of any independant operational capacity (even though Codex units could already gain mutual support, eg, fire support units like Devastators supporting Assault Marines).

 

We'll see if GW holds true to Primaris being bloat additive and not just replacements, like they said. 

 

31 minutes ago, One Paul Murray said:

Even the Terminator squad seemed to have a suspiciously fixed setup.

The Terminator models we've seen so far are Starter Box models. They are definitely a fixed set up, but it doesn't mean the squad is. For one thing, we know 100% that Terminators have options for Cyclone Missiles, Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers, from the article, so giving us that information only to renege on it a couple of months later seems like a terrible idea.

[Arikel]

22 minutes ago, One Paul Murray said:

Quick thought for people on here; I've seen a lot of people stating that it will be fine if GW remove the distinction between Firstborn and Primaris, and just bring out an upgrade kit so that (for example) Intercessors can add special weapons.

 

Why is there an assumption that GW go that way, when their new kits are mostly single weapon type? Even the Terminator squad seemed to have a suspiciously fixed setup.

 

Are people going to be happy if GW reduces the gap, but by going forward with Firstborn squads having to take fixed weapon load outs, rather than the other way round?

 

Terminators for most SM have always had pretty fixed load outs, so they may not be the best example. Everyone has storm bolters, Sarge has a sword, everyone else has a powerfist or chainfist. 1 out of 5(not the sarge)  could take a heavy weapon: a heavy flamer, assault cannon, or cyclone missile launcher, which replaces the stormbolter with the exception of the cyclone. All of these are still listed in the new terminator statline they have shown us.

 

Assault terminators have been a separate data sheet forever and are even more limited, LC or TH+SS, take your pick per model.

 

Exceptions would be for WolfGuard termies and Deathwing, who I believe can have varied load outs and mix melee and ranged in the same squad, not sure if any of the other chapters field non standard termie squads off hand.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if first born squad options get limited to just what's in the box. Does the current tac squad have a choice of heavies or do they still only include the missile launcher?

 

 

[Blindhamster]

14 minutes ago, Kallas said:

It sounds about right. Primaris have been out long enough that people have bought into the awful vehicles that they needed to run mechanised lists, now they can sell Primaris players older vehicles too! Win-win for GW there.

I more meant it was asinine they're adding in the limitation that you cant mix a firstborn character with a primaris unit or equally the same in reverse lol.

 

15 minutes ago, Kallas said:

The Terminator models we've seen so far are Starter Box models. They are definitely a fixed set up, but it doesn't mean the squad is. For one thing, we know 100% that Terminators have options for Cyclone Missiles, Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers, from the article, so giving us that information only to renege on it a couple of months later seems like a terrible idea.

Tbf, the terminators are not much more flexible than primaris units for loadouts anyway, they're fairly similar in terms of flexibility to the most recent primaris units overall.

 

fwiw, like I said in the other thread, I very much doubt it's going to be a straight primaris v firstborn split, I believe you'll find bike characters can only join bike units (rather than the old days where a jump pack character may have joined a bike squad), and I think only terminator characters will be able to join terminators - which will be how they justify that it can be primaris or firstborn inside the suit lol. My guess is the characters will be able to join similarly equipped units with notionally similar expected roles.

[Kallas]

Just now, Blindhamster said:

I more meant it was asinine they're adding in the limitation that you cant mix a firstborn character with a primaris unit or equally the same in reverse lol.

I'm just saying that from the cynical POV that GW are simply trying to drive sales, the initial restriction (ie, Primaris can't go in Firstborn vehicles, and vice versa) was an obvious way to increase sales on the new vehicles; now that the initial wave is thoroughly completed (ie, it's been several years and they're not targeting those vehicles specifically) they can switch gears to shift more of all vehicles: now Primaris can ride in Firstborn vehicles, go buy them; and now Firstborn can ride in Primaris vehicles, if you didn't buy into them before, go buy them!

 

Logically, it makes a certain amount sense, just not from a gaming POV.

 

3 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Tbf, the terminators are not much more flexible than primaris units for loadouts anyway, they're fairly similar in terms of flexibility to the most recent primaris units overall.

Yeah, they're not much more flexible, but they are more flexible in general.

 

6 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

fwiw, like I said in the other thread, I very much doubt it's going to be a straight primaris v firstborn split, I believe you'll find bike characters can only join bike units (rather than the old days where a jump pack character may have joined a bike squad), and I think only terminator characters will be able to join terminators - which will be how they justify that it can be primaris or firstborn inside the suit lol. My guess is the characters will be able to join similarly equipped units with notionally similar expected roles.

I don't think I agree.

 

With the preview for the Primaris Lieutenant, we saw he can only join Primaris infantry squads (Intercessors, Bladeguard, Hellblasters). This restriction, as you said, is very stupid and doesn't really have any logical gameplay benefit - it has sales benefits (ie, driving players to buy 'matching' models; which is to say, buy more Primaris). Why wouldn't a foot Primaris Lieutenant not be able to join a Tactical Squad, or a Sternguard Squad (assuming one of the <Redacted> squad is the trailer combi-weapon Sternguard-like squad)? 

 

Without more information, it definitely looks like the Firstborn/Primaris split is going to be there, and if anything it's going to be more pronounced than 8/9th Ed, except for the vehicle transportation restriction.

 

 

[Blindhamster]

8 minutes ago, Kallas said:

With the preview for the Primaris Lieutenant, we saw he can only join Primaris infantry squads (Intercessors, Bladeguard, Hellblasters). This restriction, as you said, is very stupid and doesn't really have any logical gameplay benefit - it has sales benefits (ie, driving players to buy 'matching' models; which is to say, buy more Primaris). Why wouldn't a foot Primaris Lieutenant not be able to join a Tactical Squad, or a Sternguard Squad (assuming one of the <Redacted> squad is the trailer combi-weapon Sternguard-like squad)? 

 

Considering it isn't ALL primaris units, I'm pretty confident the split wont simply be primaris/firstborn, i think it'll be more granular than that. We'll see that gravis captains can join aggressors or heavy intercessors (but I bet not eradicators!), we'll see terminator captains can join terminator squads (and nothing else), we'll see firstborn lieutenants will probably be able to join tactical or sternguard squads, possibly vanguard if the lieutenant has a jump pack, but not otherwise etc.

 

Also, I don't think firstborn units will lose options.... until they get new sets, if they get new sets, they'll 100% lose most options, similar to how chaos squads have.

 

  

8 minutes ago, Kallas said:

I'm just saying that from the cynical POV that GW are simply trying to drive sales, the initial restriction (ie, Primaris can't go in Firstborn vehicles, and vice versa) was an obvious way to increase sales on the new vehicles; now that the initial wave is thoroughly completed (ie, it's been several years and they're not targeting those vehicles specifically) they can switch gears to shift more of all vehicles: now Primaris can ride in Firstborn vehicles, go buy them; and now Firstborn can ride in Primaris vehicles, if you didn't buy into them before, go buy them!

 

Logically, it makes a certain amount sense, just not from a gaming POV.

 

Sorry, I'm not explaining myself well, the reason I said it's more asinine that the old vehicle split, is because there is even less logic to tie firstborn characters to firstborn units and the same in reverse. I was at no point arguing against that the reason for dropping the restriction on vehicles will be totally sales dependent (though actually, based on what we've seen, I don't think that will actually happen now honestly... at least not for anything except maybe drop pods and land raiders.)

 

p.s. based on what we've seen, I suspect veteran intercessors will be a thing of the past, replaced with whatever the new shooty veteran unit is.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Kallas]

3 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Sorry, I'm not explaining myself well, the reason I said it's more asinine that the old vehicle split, is because there is even less logic to tie firstborn characters to firstborn units and the same in reverse. I was at no point arguing against that the reason for dropping the restriction on vehicles will be totally sales dependent (though actually, based on what we've seen, I don't think that will actually happen now honestly... at least not for anything except maybe drop pods and land raiders.)

Ah ok, then fair enough 

 

I'm also not sure if they'll remove transport restrictions: probably on Land Raiders, so they can sell those to Primaris, and maybe Repulsors so they can sell those to Firstborn. Drop Pods maybe, though if they keep the ridiculous restrictions, then they might just make a new Cawl-pattern Drop Pod that's 10% larger and 50% more expensive that only transports Primaris.

 

5 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Considering it isn't ALL primaris units, I'm pretty confident the split wont simply be primaris/firstborn,

It's not "all Primaris" but it is "only Primaris". 

 

6 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

We'll see that gravis captains can join aggressors or heavy intercessors (but I bet not eradicators!), we'll see terminator captains can join terminator squads (and nothing else), we'll see firstborn lieutenants will probably be able to join tactical or sternguard squads, possibly vanguard if the lieutenant has a jump pack, but not otherwise etc.

I agree, this is probably what they will do.

 

I don't mind the decision to restrict some units (eg, Lieutenant joining Eradicators) to try and curtail some power spikes. Game balance is a factor, and doing that can help reduce the insane buffs we saw towards the middle of 8th.

 

8 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Also, I don't think firstborn units will lose options.... until they get new sets, if they get new sets, they'll 100% lose most options, similar to how chaos squads have.

Honestly, I expect they likely will reduce Firstborn options to what they have in the box. Sternguard with max 4 of a given Combi-weapon (Primaris Sternguard will probably come with 5/5 of each option to make them more attractive), Tacticals will only have Missile Launchers available, etc.

 

They will be able to point at other units with the same kinds of restriction (like you say, CSM) and slowly degrade interest in running Firstborn, as I still believe that they'll move to push them out (I mean, we did seea Firstborn model in the Boltgun article, but that's a one-off, and they probably felt very bad about showing a non-Primaris model ). But that's me being cynical - who knows, maybe they will keep their word.

[DesuVult]

It isn't exactly firstborn characters tied to firstborn squads and primaris characters to primaris squads but armor to armor with what appears to be some options further restricted.  Primaris LT can't join gravis or phobos.

 

1 hour ago, One Paul Murray said:

Quick thought for people on here; I've seen a lot of people stating that it will be fine if GW remove the distinction between Firstborn and Primaris, and just bring out an upgrade kit so that (for example) Intercessors can add special weapons.

 

Why is there an assumption that GW go that way, when their new kits are mostly single weapon type? Even the Terminator squad seemed to have a suspiciously fixed setup.

 

Are people going to be happy if GW reduces the gap, but by going forward with Firstborn squads having to take fixed weapon load outs, rather than the other way round?

Several newer kits have been getting weapon options and the terminators we see have heavy weapon options.

[Kallas]

7 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

It isn't exactly firstborn characters tied to firstborn squads and primaris characters to primaris squads but armor to armor with what appears to be some options further restricted.  Primaris LT can't join gravis or phobos.

Yes, but some of this is still stupid: Mk X Tacticus not being able to join Mk II-VII (and probably vice versa) is a pretty stupid restriction, especially if we operate on the assumption that a Firstborn Lieutenant is probably providing the same buffs (assuming they haven't just dropped Firstborn Lts who technically don't have a specific model, unless you count a model made from the Company Command box.)

 

A Primaris Lt not being able to join Phobos is a bit weird, but at least it can be explained by Phobos units operating in a vanguard role; and not joining Gravis can be somewhat explained by being a lighter armoured unit not joining a heavy armour, heavy fighting unit. Not joining a same kind of armour unit (eg, Mk X and Mk VII) is just a stupid restriction, much like vehicle transportation. If this kind of restriction is borne out, it will be very dumb.

[gortonsfisherman]

Maybe the primaris LT can’t lead tactical squads because tactical squads won’t get a datasheet this edition. Perhaps they’ll proxy as intercessors. I’m not saying it’s a certainty but other than terminators have we seen any evidence that firstborn units are getting rules?

[redmapa]

We've seen one datasheet, I think it's a  bit early to say some units are getting scrapped this edition.

[Sea Creature]

I wonder what will happen to Relic Terminators.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

 

Disappointing if true but no worse off than we are now. I am more peeved at the fact my Sanguianary Priest is probably going to be a lot more limited in terms of which units he can heal. I suspect he won't be bringing back my Attack Bikes or Inceptors in 10th. Then again, if stuff is more survivable in 10th, maybe they will last long to contribute without having to dedicate a character just to keeping them alive. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

 

I hope SHPs are lone operators, otherwise my jump SHP is pretty useless since I only have 3 FB jump squads.

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, gortonsfisherman said:

Maybe the primaris LT can’t lead tactical squads because tactical squads won’t get a datasheet this edition. Perhaps they’ll proxy as intercessors. I’m not saying it’s a certainty but other than terminators have we seen any evidence that firstborn units are getting rules?

It's possible. Would be a spit in the eye of anyone who wants to maintain their models as the units they actually are. Primaris units aren't 1:1 matches, so making Tacticals run as Intercessors would be crap.

 

No good reason to do it, other than to force more sales of Primaris, but it would be as likely to disenfranchise those who were on the fence as it would to convince them to buy in. If they'll invalidate one thing, nothing to stop them from doing it again whenever they feel like it.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, One Paul Murray said:

Quick thought for people on here; I've seen a lot of people stating that it will be fine if GW remove the distinction between Firstborn and Primaris, and just bring out an upgrade kit so that (for example) Intercessors can add special weapons.

 

Why is there an assumption that GW go that way, when their new kits are mostly single weapon type? Even the Terminator squad seemed to have a suspiciously fixed setup.

 

Are people going to be happy if GW reduces the gap, but by going forward with Firstborn squads having to take fixed weapon load outs, rather than the other way round?

The terminators have the standard terminator options, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about them having a fixed loadout…

[Scribe]

12 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

So how do people feel about the distinction not being taken away? The Primaris units can only be led by Primaris characters, and the word is still being assigned to units.

 

Hopefully the transports are unlocked for all, but at this point I have doubts about this being the case. The Drop Pod is probably the most key transport option that needs to transport Primaris.

 

Not a fan at all. Guess it will be next edition reset.

[Orange Knight]

17 hours ago, Kallas said:

Part of what makes Firstborn units distinct from Primaris units is that they are flexible: you can equip them with various weapons instead of being locked into one kind of rifle, or one kind of plasma gun. If they condensed the lines and made Firstborn 'pick a rifle' then it's not a Firstborn unit any more, it's just restrictive Primaris stuff.

 

Debatable if the range as a whole is more flexible. The Classic Marines are mostly wearing the same armour and are all using the same weapons, the only difference between a lot of the units is the restrictions on how many of a certain weapon they can take. 

 

On the other hand, the Primaris have more armour and wargear variation between units. The typical Primaris unit is indeed less flexible than the average Old-Marine unit, but the army as a whole can deal with different situations and threats better because you can bring 5 squads, each more capable at a particular task, making the army more efficient at a variety of things.

 

The Terminators and Centurions were the biggest exceptions to this, and both have more in common with Primaris at this point, and the Terminators themselves have crossed the Rubicon.

 

Primaris, as one example, allow you to run an entire army of toughness 5 models and still maintain high levels of movement (Inceptors), firepower (Eradicator), close combat ability (Aggressors) ad objective control (Heavy Intercessors). The Firstborn can't do this.

 

So which range is actually more flexible?

[Karhedron]

7 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

So which range is actually more flexible?

 

That is a good point. Tactical squads have been poor for several editions because it is generally more effective to take a shooty squad and a melee squad than 2 general purpose squads. GW have a habit of consistently over-pricing/underpowering generalist squads in favour specialists. Tactical squads are by no means the only victims of this, there are plenty of other units that fall into this category such as Guardian Defenders. Flexibility within an army is generally better than flexibility within a squad under GW's current pricing model.

 

The reason for this is that multi-role units generally pay a premium for being able to both shoot effectively and fight in melee effectively but it is very hard to leverage both capabilities effectively in a game, never mind in a turn. If you look at successful multi-role units like Dreadnoughts, they have the ability to move up while shooting effectively and then fight well in melee. Crucially the "Big Guns Never Tire" rule means they can continue to shoot in melee if they do not squish their target in the first 2 rounds of combat.

[Orange Knight]

Yes, that's what it comes down to. I think the Primaris are better designed for a tabletop wargame, whereas the Firstborn are more suited to, and can trace their roots to, a skirmish game.

 

Army Flexibility is more important than unit flexibility and units don't exist in a vacuum.

 

Going back to the distinction between the ranges blurring or not, I think we have to be more careful in future about taking limited information out of context. Whilst it may well be true that the keyword "Primaris" is no longer going to be a part of the datasheet, it also did not signify the end of the divide. Primaris are still very much a thing both in the lore and on the tabletop, and as Blindhamster pointed out, the divide is now even more apparent.

 

I still think that Transports will be available to all, but I even question this prospect somewhat. The Landraider and the Drop Pod are probably the safest guesses for allowing Primaris to use them. My personal pick would be the Drop Pod as it offers something in the rules that the other vehicles don't. The Landraider itself has too much cross-over with the Repulsors, but I appreciate the fondness people have for it.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Orange Knight

[b1soul]

Anyone agree that the only difference between Primaris and Firstborn on the tabletop should be a stat like wounds or attacks or toughness or something along those lines?

 

In D&D terms...

Primaris and Firstborn are like different races.

All the different unit types are like classes: tactical, assault, devastator, terminator, reiver, inceptor, aggressor, etc.

 

Each race should have access to all classes, and some of the more redundant classes can be merged.

 

Maybe Firstborn Veterans could have a special perk/rule like a loyalist "Veterans of the Long War"?

Edited April 13, 2023 by b1soul

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Debatable if the range as a whole is more flexible. The Classic Marines are mostly wearing the same armour and are all using the same weapons, the only difference between a lot of the units is the restrictions on how many of a certain weapon they can take. 

Yep. And those units can general choose what weapons they take: aka, they are flexible.

 

A player can build them however they want, and even have the other options ready on a game-by-game basis such that even the most basic unit can perform a different function (albeit, not necessarily by a large degree). A Tactical Squad with a Flamer one game will function differently to one with a Meltagun in the next - not by an enormous amount, but it will have different options available.

 

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

The typical Primaris unit is indeed less flexible than the average Old-Marine unit

Uh huh, now who's using a term specifically intended to try and be disrespectful? 

 

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

but the army as a whole can deal with different situations and threats better because you can bring 5 squads, each more capable at a particular task, making the army more efficient at a variety of things.

Except, Firstborn can also bring 5 units equipped to perform different tasks. That's not unique to Primaris, it's simply that Primaris must bring a specific unit for a specific piece of equipment (ie, Eradicators for a melta squad). 

 

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

The Terminators and Centurions were the biggest exceptions to this, and both have more in common with Primaris at this point, and the Terminators themselves have crossed the Rubicon.

And Terminators also have not crossed the Rubicon too. They don't share the same design as Primaris, but Primaris have also adopted the Terminator loadouts. If they were actual Primaris loadouts, they'd all have one gun and no variety in the unit possible, but they have the same loadouts as Firstborn Terminators instead.

 

Centurions have the option for weapon homogeny (and that's typically better for tabletop performance) but even they have far more flexbility in options than Primaris units.

 

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Primaris, as one example, allow you to run an entire army of toughness 5 models and still maintain high levels of movement (Inceptors), firepower (Eradicator), close combat ability (Aggressors) ad objective control (Heavy Intercessors). The Firstborn can't do this.

 

So which range is actually more flexible?

When you change the topic from loadout flexibility to army flexbility, it's a different question. Primaris can bring a Gravis army that does something Firstborn can't (ie, mass T5, some of it with jump packs), yes.

 

Primaris also cannot bring a mobile unit of melee fighters with en masse Invulnerable saves, with Drop Pods bringing in heavy firepower wherever it's needed, so does that not make Firstborn more flexible too? Point is that Firstborn units have more flexible options, which is what was said to start with, and not what you are twisting things around to promote Primaris with (and which isn't necessarily true unless you look at particular extremes).

 

51 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Yes, that's what it comes down to. I think the Primaris are better designed for a tabletop wargame, whereas the Firstborn are more suited to, and can trace their roots to, a skirmish game.

 

Army Flexibility is more important than unit flexibility and units don't exist in a vacuum.

Unit flexibility is important, but it is typically priced out (as was mentioned before) of being useful.

 

Units don't exist in a vacuum, but units cannot be everywhere at once. Those Eradicators? Would be nice if they were over here dealing with this Leman Russ, but they're over there dealing with that Chimera; so having Meltas in the Tactical Squad helps them threaten the LR (even if it's not the same threat as a unit of Eradicators).

 

Tacticals hold better to the typical deployment of Astartes: small strike forces deployed to do their job, rather than the en masse deployments we see more and more of. Massive pitched battles are relatively rare for Astartes, but they also are the ones that have artwork (because it looks cool, even though it's not how Astartes would fight, but still). So yes, Primaris are better suited for a tabletop wargame that is specifically aiming at pitched battles of lines of troops shooting at each other where mutual support is near guaranteed; Firstborn are better suited when the wargame breaks down lines of fire such that mutual aid is less guaranteed (ie, 9th edition terrain) because line of sight and mobility do not always allow the player to place their units such that their preferred target is available (ie, when obstructing terrain hinders deployment and LOS).

 

In modern 40k games, terrain is more impactful (and should be), and that actually leads to situations where a flexible unit is useful, albeit still typically overpriced because GW doesn't like balancing generalist units.

 

54 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Landraider itself has too much cross-over with the Repulsors, but I appreciate the fondness people have for it.

You mean the Repulsor has too much cross-over with the Repulsor, since one existed for literal decades before the other