Blurring between Firstborn and Primaris incoming with 10th?

[Blindhamster]

Hey, at least as they’re just sternguard, you can literally ignore them in favour of your old models, or mix the two kinds together in a unit, meanwhile, me a mkX enjoyer also gets to use them now :)

[Marshal Reinhard]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

i hope the sergeant gets a melee weapon still personally, I also wonder if this will also show veteran intercessors going to legends.

Never had a kit so dont see a need?

[Blindhamster]

Yeah it’s one of those things where people will be dismissive of veteran intercessors in the same way they are of firstborn units I should expect. And I doubt GW will keep the unit, precisely because it doesn’t have a kit, and the sternguard getting the update means they’ll likely be seen as redundant. Most likely my ranged veteran intercessors squad will become sternguard and my melee one will become vanguard I suppose lol

 

If so, I’ll be doing some weapon swaps I imagine :D

Edited April 29, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Crimson Longinus]

It is indeed very interesting that this new primaris unit is just "Sternguard" and I believe this is indicative of how this will be handled in the future. Non-primaris models will get replaced with primaris equivalents. 

[Orange Knight]

I guess by blurring the line we could be saying we've reached the stage of having the old models simply replaced and updated?

 

 

It's not something I was particularly in favour of. I don't personally love units like the Sternguard because of how unfocused they are in purpose. That being said, they have consolidated all the weapons into a few profiles so it might work.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Blindhamster]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I guess by blurring the line we could be saying we've reached the stage of having the old models simply replaced and updated?

 

 

It's not something I was particularly in favour of. I don't personally love units like the Sternguard because of how unfocused they are in purpose. That being said, they have consolidated all the weapons into a few profiles so it might work.

Sternguard are perfectly focused, you give them the combo weapon for the role they need to fulfill.

[Captain Idaho]

For most editions they existed in, Sternguard were considered one of the more competitive units for Marines.

 

Be nice to have that back again.

[Marshal Reinhard]

22 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Sternguard are perfectly focused, you give them the combo weapon for the role they need to fulfill.

But as established, it seems that there's just one combi weapon profile now

[Blindhamster]

27 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

But as established, it seems that there's just one combi weapon profile now

That’s only really confirmed for the librarian right? We haven’t actually seen that for sure yet

[Marshal Reinhard]

2 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

That’s only really confirmed for the librarian right? We haven’t actually seen that for sure yet

Sure, but articles everywhere refer to everything as combi weapons now

 

The sternguard are said to have combi weapons. The lieutenant has a combi weapon, not an autoflamer.

 

It's true its not confirmed noone beyond the librarian just has a single combi weapon profile. But we conversely have no reason to believe there should be multiple profiles anymore either. Historic precedent sure. But historic precedent also predicted that the librarian would have multiple combi weapon profiles, so there's that

[Xanthous]

1 hour ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

The lieutenant has a combi weapon, not an autoflamer.

 

The warcom article devoted to the marines in Leviathan does refer to it as a Lieutenant with Combi-Flamer, so maybe there is still some hope that the Librarian's datasheet doesn't indicate the direction other combi-weapons will go. It sounds to me like an utterly baffling decision on GW's part, but sadly that doesn't rule it out in the slightest.

[Orange Knight]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Sternguard are perfectly focused, you give them the combo weapon for the role they need to fulfill.

 

Kind of. The kit doesn't come with all the options. You pay a lot of points for these upgrades historically, and the combi weapons used to replace their special ammo in the past.

 

I much prefer having a Plasma unit, a Melta unit, a Flamer unit, etc etc

 

I'm sure that in 10th the Veterans will have some interesting and exciting rules on top of just their weapons.

[Marshal Reinhard]

9 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Kind of. The kit doesn't come with all the options. You pay a lot of points for these upgrades historically, and the combi weapons used to replace their special ammo in the past.

Interestingly if combi weapons have been consolidated, they do now have all the options

[The Unseen]

I think I'll just stick with my plan of using the MK6 bodies and MK4 heads and doing some fiddling with weapons and kitbashes to get my Firstborn Blood Angels to the state where I can run them as either HH marines or the Primaris stuff. Whats the actual difference on the table between MK6 dudes magnetized to hold flamers/plasmaguns compared to pyre and hell blasters? Not much. I have too many marines to rebuy an entire army. Primaris kits that look good I will purchase, like I didn't mind buying bladeguard at all, despite them being noticeably out of scale with everything else in my army, because at least the models themselves were cool looking and thematically fit in overall. But I've got some Angel's Tears with assault cannons I've been kitbashing for HH, that will be my Inceptor/Suppressor stand ins, I'm never going to buy those kits.

 

If GW had just started releasing upscaled marines in the classic style, I probably *would* eventually replace my entire army. But most of the units have been a swing and miss for me, though some of that is undoubtedly nostalgia talking, nothing in the firstborn lineup looks as bad as desolaters or suppressors. But Bladeguard, the Chaplain on bike, and the Eliminators all look fantastic, so its been a real mixed bag. I think the redemptor compares unfavorably both to the classic Castefferum pattern, the sleeker Contemptor, AND the Leviathan, it looks like its trying to be all 3 at once. It even has the "burns out its pilots rather quickly" line that the Leviathan used to be famous for. Rather than a Primaris kit, they should've just done a Leviathan in plastic years ago instead. On the other hand, if I was doing a bike army I would happily take the slight size disparity and pick-up the newer ones, because the old kit is really showing its age and the new ones are more like a re-imagining or upscaling than something entirely new, if they had just let a few of them grab special weapons or other melee weapon options I'm sure the new kit would've been immensely popular. Or you know, let you take more than 3 in a squad at a time.

 

Sternguard sticking around surprises me, I would've though they would've gone with the "Veteran Intercessor Squad", but maybe it makes sense cause in reality they mechanically were often more like a Primaris squad, either all special bolters or all the same combi-weapon when Sternguard ever hit the table. At least its looking like were losing the transport restrictions between firstborn and primaris and just keeping the smaller transports not being able to carry the chunky guys, which is fine. Telling me terminators or gravis is too big to fit inside the back of a rhino, sure. But don't tell me that intercessors couldn't fit in a land raider, rhino, or a drop pod.

[Blindhamster]

5 hours ago, The Unseen said:

nothing in the firstborn lineup looks as bad as desolaters or suppressors.

 

all just opinion of course but... for me:

• Centurions are still the worst marine unit ever made.
• Plastic scouts are utterly terrible (I've always had to convert them using greenstuff and guard bits just using the scout torsos and literally nothing else, they're so bad)
• modern plastic assault squad is terrible, their legs are all tiny and really weirdly proportioned
• ironclad is the uggliest dreadnought ever made
• stormraven remains the worst looking marine vehicle.

Of the above, I'd say centurions are worse than desolaters and suppressors, my unwillingness to ever make the scouts "as is" suggests I feel the same about those too lol. Assault marines is just a kit issue, I like the actual assault marine design, just not the current models. Can't compare ironclad or stormraven to desolaters or suppressors of course, but I find both to be worse than any primaris vehicle.

[Marshal Reinhard]

4 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Centurions are still the worst marine unit ever made.

Yeah. Especially the CC variant.

4 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

• Plastic scouts are utterly terrible (I've always had to convert them using greenstuff and guard bits just using the scout torsos and literally nothing else, they're so bad)

Did do fine with simple head swaps when I did the old plastic scouts, way back. But yeah, they were probably the plastic marine kit in most desperate need of an update back when GW started their last classic marine updates. The BT neophytes that came out recently are by contrast excellent, only suffering from an extreme lack of pose variety.

4 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

• modern plastic assault squad is terrible, their legs are all tiny and really weirdly proportioned

I guess? All marines far enough back suffer from Proportions Issues. Even modern marines do, but not to that extent.

4 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

• ironclad is the uggliest dreadnought ever made

Plastic one certainly is a contender. Quite liked the forgeworld mk IV one though. 

4 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

• stormraven remains the worst looking marine vehicle.

It's a tough battlefield though. Precious few marine flyers look anything but awful.

 

 

[Blindhamster]

7 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I guess? All marines far enough back suffer from Proportions Issues. Even modern marines do, but not to that extent.

I just have strong memories of being intensely disappointed when they came out, big new update with cool poses! Oh but they’re typically shorter than the average tactical marine, or at best roughly the same height, despite the far more upright and often dynamic poses.

 

the vanguard veterans on the other hand I loved

[Karhedron]

21 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Kind of. The kit doesn't come with all the options. You pay a lot of points for these upgrades historically, and the combi weapons used to replace their special ammo in the past.

 

I much prefer having a Plasma unit, a Melta unit, a Flamer unit, etc etc

 

In a sense we have the best of both worlds if Combi-weapons are consolidated. The weapon profile shown on the Librarian is not specialised like plasma/melta/flamer but it is a good all-rounder.

 

Back when Sternguard were popular, it was hard to spam special weapons and their strength was the ability to fit multiple special weapons in one squad. But now if you want a specialised unit we have Hellblasters, Eradicators and Infernus Marines. If you want specialised firepower, you take one of those squads. If you want more of a swiss-army unit, the new Sternguard may be the answer if the price is right.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Karhedron

[The Unseen]

9 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

 

all just opinion of course but... for me:

• Centurions are still the worst marine unit ever made.
• Plastic scouts are utterly terrible (I've always had to convert them using greenstuff and guard bits just using the scout torsos and literally nothing else, they're so bad)
• modern plastic assault squad is terrible, their legs are all tiny and really weirdly proportioned
• ironclad is the uggliest dreadnought ever made
• stormraven remains the worst looking marine vehicle.

Of the above, I'd say centurions are worse than desolaters and suppressors, my unwillingness to ever make the scouts "as is" suggests I feel the same about those too lol. Assault marines is just a kit issue, I like the actual assault marine design, just not the current models. Can't compare ironclad or stormraven to desolaters or suppressors of course, but I find both to be worse than any primaris vehicle.

Centurions are bad, but a simple kit-bash to extend their legs works just fine (See the Centurions for Tabletop Tactics Flesh Tearers army for good example) They were also clearly a unit that GW came up with during their "Baby Carriage" phase, with them, the Dreadknight, and the Invictus warsuit, who all look varying levels of dumb.

Plastic scouts literally just need a head swap and they go from unforgivable to merely sub-par, also are ancient. The Scion heads make great swaps

The assault squad kits legs are pretty bad, but overall the kit is fine? But yeah, they have the wonkiest legs, but everything else is good,

Ironclad is just a slightly chunkier Castefferum so I don't see where it could be that bad? Plus its been basically useless since its inception AND it had a FW kit that was fine.

Stormraven is literally the same as all the other marine flyers, just bigger. Yes its a brick that wouldn't ever fly, but literally every marine flyer looks like that besides the Xyphon.

 

You can't fix the suppressors without some extensive cutting (grav skates and weird fins), reposing so they don't look like their somehow taking a dump mid-air, and possibly the worst flying bases ever, and the desolaters literally look better painted in bright colors with "Nerf" written down the sides, because its something an Ork Mek would come up with, and they pose like the guns are a movie prop made out of cardboard, not several hundred lbs of launcher and ammo. The Primaris vehicles aren't memorable because they're literally just the old vehicles but with grav plates rather than treads and then rolled in a weapons bitz box. That and they have STUBBERS, BY THE EMPEROR WHY DO THEY HAVE STUBBERS? Yes, lets put a weapon that marines use literally no-where else in their entire line-up, a piddly weapon that the Guard barely want to use, on your shock troops vehicles. Ugh. Heavy Bolters and Storm Bolters are literally right there. But no, gotta make them worse Admech vehicles for some reason. I'll give you the Stormraven one if/when Primaris get their own flyer that looks better, which I doubt.

[Ammonius]

12 minutes ago, The Unseen said:

STUBBERS, BY THE EMPEROR WHY DO THEY HAVE STUBBERS?

Amen Brother.

[Arkangilos]

15 minutes ago, The Unseen said:

You can't fix the suppressors without some extensive cutting

I think the other jump packs fixed the suppressors with no issues.

[Grim Dog Studios]

A thought I’ve been having regarding the removal of the Primaris keyword, and now the Sternguard release, is are we seeing a further blurring of the lines particurlaly for units where we had both a Primaris Version and a Firstborn version e.g Captains, Librarians, Chaplains etc

 

So rather than in the codex having mutliple entries called “Space Marine Captain” and “Primaris Captain”, are we just going to have a singular “Space Marine Captain” unit entry with the same stats, but it can be represented on the tabletop by either a firstborn or a primaris figure.

 

Now I know that the Primaris Chaplains and Apothecaries have different load outs to their firstborn counterparts such as the Absolver pistol which my throw this theory to the wind, but it has been a thought in my head for the past few days. 
 

Could we also see Tactical Squads and Intercessor Squads having the same base stats, and only their load out differs?

[Captain Idaho]

I'm very happy seeing such things rolled together, with the caveat we don't see things like Jump Pack and Bike Captains disappear because GW hasn't done the kit for Primaris yet.

 

This is the biggest issue with it; GW does have a policy of "only what is in the box" over kit bashing or even taking models from 1 kit and using them in another squad.

 

If they square that hole... all is good.

 

Besides, I think we can all appreciate the magic some players come up with when they create a version of something using different miniatures. A good example is Primaris Vanguard I've seen people make and use.

 

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

3 hours ago, JamPaints said:

A thought I’ve been having regarding the removal of the Primaris keyword, and now the Sternguard release, is are we seeing a further blurring of the lines particurlaly for units where we had both a Primaris Version and a Firstborn version e.g Captains, Librarians, Chaplains etc

 

So rather than in the codex having mutliple entries called “Space Marine Captain” and “Primaris Captain”, are we just going to have a singular “Space Marine Captain” unit entry with the same stats, but it can be represented on the tabletop by either a firstborn or a primaris figure.

 

Now I know that the Primaris Chaplains and Apothecaries have different load outs to their firstborn counterparts such as the Absolver pistol which my throw this theory to the wind, but it has been a thought in my head for the past few days. 
 

Could we also see Tactical Squads and Intercessor Squads having the same base stats, and only their load out differs?

We're gonna have different entries based on armor type still, like terminator, gravis phobos. Likely tacticus will just be "regular" so classic could fit in there too. Question though is if all options can fit in too, but if we assume only 1 combi weapon profile, 1 power weapon profile, thatll cut down the required list a lot

[MegaVolt87]

13 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

We're gonna have different entries based on armor type still, like terminator, gravis phobos. Likely tacticus will just be "regular" so classic could fit in there too. Question though is if all options can fit in too, but if we assume only 1 combi weapon profile, 1 power weapon profile, thatll cut down the required list a lot

 

You don't want this. Check out the CSM termi and chosen melee weapons Accursed weapons" as a catch all for all melee weapon types. An appropriate name, because it is a cursed change. Also a further errosion of squad loadouts-  restrictions like BT sword brethren, DG etc. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by MegaVolt87