BA and Tenth Edition - Facts Discussion

[Paladin777]

31 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Twin-linked I believe will come up when you have two of a weapon, not necessarily for a gun that has two barrels. I was going to bring that up earlier, but I was waiting for someone else to get there instead of attempting to deal with it before it all calmed down a bit.

 

So I'd predict a Predator for instance would have one big (Godhammer)? Lascannon with two shots, then one Lasconnon (Twin-linked) to represent the sponsons.

Interesting theory. I'm not sure how much I'd like it (as that would make predators even more useless when compared to things like dreadnaughts) but I guess we'll wait and see. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Just now, Paladin777 said:

Interesting theory. I'm not sure how much I'd like it (as that would make predators even more useless when compared to things like dreadnaughts) but I guess we'll wait and see. 

Would it? The sponsons aren't the main source of damage.

 

For CSM, they made the turret one more powerful, D6+2 damage if I remember off the top of my head. I'm interested to see if that carries over to loyalist SM.

[Paladin777]

3 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Would it? The sponsons aren't the main source of damage.

 

For CSM, they made the turret one more powerful, D6+2 damage if I remember off the top of my head. I'm interested to see if that carries over to loyalist SM.

the lascannon sponsons outdamaged the lascannon turret from 3rd-7th (2shots for the sponsons>1 shot rerolling hits). Then 8th gave it another shot, bringing them to parity.
 

I'm not saying you're wrong about the direction they're going, only that the opposite was true for literally decades.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Paladin777

[Paladin777]

Am I just overreacting, or does that suck a lot for us (or any other melee-heavy faction for that matter)?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Paladin777

[Bash]

I don't think it'll make much of a difference really since we, I am assuming, all like to use bigger units as a focussed force crushing a target. Be that from character blobs, Terminators, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard etc whatever flavour you use or our cousins in the Black Templars do. We typically have a larger amount of dudes than what we are attacking which would probably be a problem lining up and blocking charges next edition if you had to get into BTB contact. However, you have to factor in that big units led by characters will be the norm for most armies and you will, predictably, be charging your big squads led by a character into an enemy one rather than dogpiling some poor dude's MSU that are out of position. It is much easier to BTB against other big squads yourself, as it was in days of old. Remember supporting attacks? Sure had plenty of those back in the day and this is no different except you get to use your full profile. 

This is just my assumption of big squads+character being the norm not just for us but for most other armies as well. The only armies I can imagine not using them are maybe very small shooty units that are too expensive/inefficient to benefit from a character boosting them but in that case, do you really need all 10 Death Company+Chaplain to kill 5 Rangers? That's how I'm seeing it. BTB+supporting attacks from the old days wasn't a big deal since most things you wanted to charge with strong units were strong (or at least big) units themselves. 

[The Unseen]

Ouch. Losing consolidation moves hurts; that bit of extra movement could be used to do a lot of things if you knew what you were doing. That and I don't know if I'm reading it correctly, but its all models in BTB with an enemy model, or in BTB with a friendly model that is in BTB with an enemy? So basically GW got tired of figuring out engagement range and how different base sizes messed with it, and just went with that?

[WrathOfTheLion]

34 minutes ago, The Unseen said:

Ouch. Losing consolidation moves hurts; that bit of extra movement could be used to do a lot of things if you knew what you were doing. That and I don't know if I'm reading it correctly, but its all models in BTB with an enemy model, or in BTB with a friendly model that is in BTB with an enemy? So basically GW got tired of figuring out engagement range and how different base sizes messed with it, and just went with that?

It sounds to me like they've just gone to a flat two rank fighting, at least how I read that. Makes sense to me for the reason you give, it skirts around the base size thing. I wonder if that's a bit of an oversimplification, but it's probably not too far off.

[Paladin777]

I was originally reading it as only friendly models in BTB with enemy models, which would indeed suck. However, upon rereading it, it does look like it's 2ranks, which wouldn't be as bad. 

[Karhedron]

On 4/29/2023 at 12:49 PM, Bash said:

To add to the Dreadnought (and Screamer-Killer too), you lose out on the -1D effect.

 

This is true but the Balistus at least has gone up to a 2+ save. If other Dreads (or at least Primaris ones) get a 2+ save, that will mitigate the loss of the -1D rule to some extent.

[Rhavien]

From the terrain article we know that you still have to get in 1" for an successfully charge, because pipe-like terrain increases it to 2". But it also declares that you are able to fight within 2" to each other. If they showed us all the rules for ruins that basicall means no more fighting through walls. 

[Jolemai]

Faction Focus - Space Marines

 

Idea of what to expect with some units, detachment rules, and stratagems.

[Paladin777]

I think the age of multi-meltas being god-tier tank-hunters is gone, and the age of the lascannon has returned. I don't mind so much as the only melta I have is on my attack bikes, eradicators, and a couple of inferno pistols. I could see some people being pretty put out by it though. 

 

On a different note, it's about time shooting armies have to realize what it's like to have to suffer overwatch!!!!

 

I also kinda like the changes to combat doctrines. It doesn't skew in favor of one playstyle over the others, like the current system does. 
 

Glares at Iron Hands

Edited May 2, 2023 by Paladin777

[Tokugawa]

9 hours ago, Jolemai said:

Faction Focus - Space Marines

 

Idea of what to expect with some units, detachment rules, and stratagems.

Gman has faction keywords written as "Adeptus astartes, Ultramarines".

 

I wonder since BA/SW/DA/BT/DW are also "Adeptus astartes", whether their faction rules replace Oath of moment.

[BluejayJunior]

6 minutes ago, Tokugawa said:

Gman has faction keywords written as "Adeptus astartes, Ultramarines".

 

I wonder since BA/SW/DA/BT/DW are also "Adeptus astartes", whether their faction rules replace Oath of moment.

I believe that they have already stated those chapters would replace OoM. 

[Blindhamster]

Hasn’t actually been stated, but it’s the general assumption most people are making, because it generally seems logical

[Tokugawa]

It says "On top of this, every faction gets an army ability regardless of which Detachment you’re using. This represents the totemic aspect of that faction in war – so the Orks get Waaagh!, Tyranids get Synapse, the Astra Militarum get Orders, and the Space Marines get Oath of Moment."

 

to replace or not to replace could both be explained further.

[Karhedron]

22 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

I think the age of multi-meltas being god-tier tank-hunters is gone, and the age of the lascannon has returned. I don't mind so much as the only melta I have is on my attack bikes, eradicators, and a couple of inferno pistols. I could see some people being pretty put out by it though. 

 

I have leaned into MM Attack Bikes for big-game hunting in 9th but I agree they may not cut the mustard in 10th. It looks like both the toughness and viability of tanks will be going up. Melta will still have a role I think but it will be more like chip damage against big vehicles. Fortunately I have been playing long enough that I have plenty of units that could probably fit the bill. If nothing else, that lovely new Brutalis should be able to rip apart most targets in melee.

  

22 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

I also kinda like the changes to combat doctrines. It doesn't skew in favor of one playstyle over the others, like the current system does. 

 

Yeah, me too. Activating the Assault Doctrine T1 or T2 to hurl a large number of jump pack squads into melee looks good. If you opponent manages a good counter attack, activate the Tactical Doctrine to pull out, hose them with fire and then charge back in again. If you need to cap an Objective or two, Devastator Doctrine is in the back pocket to give you a burst of speed without compromising your firepower too much.

[BluejayJunior]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I have leaned into MM Attack Bikes for big-game hunting in 9th but I agree they may not cut the mustard in 10th. It looks like both the toughness and viability of tanks will be going up. Melta will still have a role I think but it will be more like chip damage against big vehicles. Fortunately I have been playing long enough that I have plenty of units that could probably fit the bill. If nothing else, that lovely new Brutalis should be able to rip apart most targets in melee.

  

The Screamer-Killer is T9 and Swarmlord is T10. Depending on how tough other big monsters are, I can see melta still being good at taking out monsters. And against most things without an invuln save, most wounds are gonna go straight through, even if wounding on 5s. So I don't think they'll be the best anti-tank/monster weapons available, but will still probably be useful.

 

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Yeah, me too. Activating the Assault Doctrine T1 or T2 to hurl a large number of jump pack squads into melee looks good. If you opponent manages a good counter attack, activate the Tactical Doctrine to pull out, hose them with fire and then charge back in again. If you need to cap an Objective or two, Devastator Doctrine is in the back pocket to give you a burst of speed without compromising your firepower too much.

Agreed, these are going to be good, I think. I can see starting most games with either the Devastator or Assault doctrine to spread out fast and get early board control, or to get right in their face and pin them in their DZ for the first couple turns. 

[Jolemai]

Melta seems to be reigned in for being used en masse rather than single shots.

[Paladin777]

While it seems like there's a lot of heavy tank killing stuff, they don't have very many shots, and it looks like they've also toned down a lot of the infantry shredders. That said, considering infantry portable weaponry seems like it's going to struggle against vehicles, and for the most part it looks like non-dreadnought vehicles will struggle against a lot of infantry in the objective game (not enough shots), it looks like having a balanced force might be the way to go! It's almost like they're making smart design choices!

Edited May 3, 2023 by Paladin777

[Jolemai]

External link, but this is a roundup of the Q&A asked during Warhammer Fest:

 

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Jolemai

[Paladin777]

That's the one I was going off of too. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 4/29/2023 at 6:50 AM, WrathOfTheLion said:

Twin-linked I believe will come up when you have two of a weapon, not necessarily for a gun that has two barrels. I was going to bring that up earlier, but I was waiting for someone else to get there instead of attempting to deal with it before it all calmed down a bit.

 

So I'd predict a Predator for instance would have one big (Godhammer)? Lascannon with two shots, then one Lasconnon (Twin-linked) to represent the sponsons.

Nope the landraider HB are twinlinked and it’s just the single double turret.

 

probably just what they think will be the best for that specific unit.

On 4/29/2023 at 6:50 AM, WrathOfTheLion said:

Twin-linked I believe will come up when you have two of a weapon, not necessarily for a gun that has two barrels. I was going to bring that up earlier, but I was waiting for someone else to get there instead of attempting to deal with it before it all calmed down a bit.

 

So I'd predict a Predator for instance would have one big (Godhammer)? Lascannon with two shots, then one Lasconnon (Twin-linked) to represent the sponsons.

Nope the landraider HB are twinlinked and it’s just the single double turret.

 

probably just what they think will be the best for that specific unit.

On 4/29/2023 at 6:50 AM, WrathOfTheLion said:

Twin-linked I believe will come up when you have two of a weapon, not necessarily for a gun that has two barrels. I was going to bring that up earlier, but I was waiting for someone else to get there instead of attempting to deal with it before it all calmed down a bit.

 

So I'd predict a Predator for instance would have one big (Godhammer)? Lascannon with two shots, then one Lasconnon (Twin-linked) to represent the sponsons.

Nope the landraider HB are twinlinked and it’s just the single double turret.

 

probably just what they think will be the best for that specific unit.

[Tokugawa]

if this is true, your preview is very near.

[Rhavien]

Hype! Red marines are best marines! Can't wait to see what we get. I really really really hope we won't get put in a close combat box. As far as I've understood we will get one faction rule instead of OoM and one detachment. Wonder if we will get a variation of combat doctrines (choose 1 of 3 each turn) or something completely different. As much as I love +1 to wound it would again heavily favor CC lists. I actually really like the tactical flexibility of the Astartes detachment rules. Guess nothing is stopping us to use those if we leave sang guard, DC etc at home.