BA and Tenth Edition - Facts Discussion

[Paladin777]

As I understand it, it sounds like the gladius strike force is still available to codex divergent chapters as the Adeptus Astartes standard, and we just won't have access to other strike forces. 
 

I could be wrong though.

 

Shrugs

[BluejayJunior]

I've kind of assumed (though not sure how I got there) that all the Space Marine chapters are going to start the index with only the Gladius Strike Force. 

I am kind of hoping that BA will have access to all the regular SM detachments and then 1-2 unique ones. And that the big difference will be our army rule instead of Oath of Moment. 

[Bash]

1 hour ago, BluejayJunior said:

And that the big difference will be our army rule instead of Oath of Moment. 

I would actually prefer this because that way we would still be Blood Angels (or Flesh Tearers) no matter what kind of force we play but I imagine if you run one of the basic SM detachments, you just get Oath of Moment. Our index will probably shed some light on what our rule is and it may well just be Oath of Moment again but that seems kind of dull. I'd like us to play as the same Chapter regardless of whether we run a Shining Host jump pack list or a Forlorn Hope Death Company one or whatever other shenanigans they put in our eventual codex. We still would even with Oath of Moment of course but surely you guys know what I mean lol

Sadly (for us), it seems the Necrons are the next index covered and the list theory didn't pan out. I guess we'll have to wait and see lads. 

[Karhedron]

I think I remember reading that Marines will have access to more than just the Gladius Strikeforce at launch but I don't know how much more.

[Paladin777]

The bolt gun profile has been revealed in the Chaos preview. 

 

S4, 24", 2shots, and no special rules or AP, making it completely inferior to the bolt rifle. 

 

That said, if a tac squad costs the same when they have a heavy weapon, that could offset the damage output. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Paladin777

[Tokugawa]

1 hour ago, Paladin777 said:

The bolt gun profile has been revealed in the Chaos preview. 

 

S4, 24", 2shots, and no special rules or AP, making it completely inferior to the bolt rifle. 

 

That said, if a tac squad costs the same when they have a heavy weapon, that could offset the damage output. 

This is the more "proper" way to persuade players to buy primaris products for replacing old ass models, instead of the "more harsh" ways in 8th and 9th.

[WrathOfTheLion]

38 minutes ago, Tokugawa said:

This is the more "proper" way to persuade players to buy primaris products for replacing old ass models, instead of the "more harsh" ways in 8th and 9th.

Likely, given their statements and that they updated Sternguard, they'll just outright update the Tactical, Assault and Devastator squads to be in MK X armor.

 

That said, it's not relevant to the discussion. I suspect tactical squads will be a better all around squad, whilst intercessors will be more of a shock troop squad for pushing up to and seizing objectives.

Edited May 4, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Karhedron]

The bolt gun has been inferior to the bolt rifle for the last 2 editions, no reason to expect that to change. The bolt gun has improved over 9th edition though as it now always gets 2 shots out to 24" range, even if the bearer is moving. I think the relative points costs and the importance (or not) of heavy weapons is going to be the deciding factor.

[Paladin777]

I mentioned this earlier, but I still think it's worth repeating that 2squads of squads of 5 tac marines in a rhino can fire their heavy weapons out the top before being dumped on objectives. That's nowhere near as efficient with any primaris unit.

[Arkangilos]

On 5/5/2023 at 4:28 AM, Karhedron said:

The bolt gun has improved over 9th edition though as it now always gets 2 shots out to 24" range, even if the bearer is moving

Which really makes sense because SM are supposed to be crack shots.

[Arkhanist]

On 5/4/2023 at 10:52 PM, Paladin777 said:

The bolt gun profile has been revealed in the Chaos preview. 

 

S4, 24", 2shots, and no special rules or AP, making it completely inferior to the bolt rifle. 

 

That said, if a tac squad costs the same when they have a heavy weapon, that could offset the damage output. 

 

The standard bolter equivalent for primaris is the bolt carbine, used by phobos troops - it's the same size and very similar style. It has the same stats in 9th as a bolter for infiltrators/incursors - S4, 24", rapid fire 1, 0AP - and likely will be the same in 10th. They do get their special sauce for the custom scopes, akin to sternguard and their special issue ammo, but we've yet to see how that changes in 10th.

 

The bolt rifle has always been slightly better than the bolter and bolt carbine, being well, bigger. The bonus for tac squads, as you say, is the option of a special and heavy weapon that intercessor/phobos squads don't have.

 

Rapid fire now seems much rarer as most infantry weapons just have x number of attacks up to full range, hence the bolter and bolt rifle both getting 2 shots to 24" - a small nerf for the standard bolt rifle which had 6" extra range, though they've now mushed all 3 variants together rules-wise. Termi storm bolters have rapid fire 2, so they get 4 shots (2+2) up to 12", but otherwise same stats as the bolter.

[Arkangilos]

7 hours ago, Arkhanist said:

though they've now mushed all 3 variants together rules-wise.

Which I love because now I can do what I think makes sense: for every team I can have an auto bolt rifle model to simulate a SAW, even though stat wise it does the same. It is more immersive to me. I can also have a "designated marksman" with the scoped one.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Paladin777]

If the terminator captain from combat patrol is the same as the one that makes its way to 'big 40k,' then the thunder hammer, pair of lightning claws, and relic weapon have been revealed. 

 

The lightning claws are the same, though it looks like it's possible that single lightning claws are the same as other power weapons (boo).

 

the TH does 2 damage now (boo) and has Devastating wounds. That might be nice with a full squad and the weight of dice that comes from that, but on a single model with 5 attacks, hitting on 3's it's a bit underwhelming, even with OoM. 
 

the relic weapon has been nerfed to S5 and -2 AP (boo).

 

honestly it looks like the power fist is the overall best option now, though I could see the chainfist seeing play for the anti-armor 3+. 

[Blindhamster]

think it'll depend, if blood angels keep +1 to wound in some form, I could see the relic blade being a good option, terminators that don't have chain fists have no business hunting vehicles anymore anyway, and the relic blade still wounds marines on 3s, 2s if we keep +1 to wound or something similar, both do two damage and the blade has an extra attack.

 

Suspect on non-terminator captains fists will retain -1 to hit, like the aggressors have too, so will be a worse option there.

 

Another interesting thing, chaos got a positive trait that also comes with a negative, I wonder if blood angels might see red thirst/black rage become both a positive and negative again too. I'd be up for that personally. (I am clinging to the idea it'll remain a thing in some manner, as we seem to be getting a separate codex again).

 

 

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

the relic weapon has been nerfed to S5 and -2 AP (boo).

 

I think that this is basically just a Master Crafted Power Sword now.

[Paladin777]

@Blindhamsterthe terminator data sheet previewed early on had power fists hitting on 3+, so I don't think power fists have penalties to hit. In general, I think they just don't get as many attacks because the power weapon on the same data sheet pad for attacks versus the power fist having three. 
 

@Karhedronyup. Kind of too bad in my opinion.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Paladin777

[Blindhamster]

13 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

@Blindhamsterthe terminator data sheet previewed early on had power fists hitting on 3+, so I don't think power fists have penalties to hit. In general, I think they just don't get as many attacks because the power weapon on the same data sheet pad for attacks versus the power fist having three. 
 

@Karhedronyup. Kind of too bad in my opinion.

agressor fists get -1 to hit, I think terminators dont suffer it due to being terminators, suspect power armour fists will suffer it. We saw on the legionnaire sheet that the "heavy melee weapon" which covered fists was hitting on 4s

[Paladin777]

Ok, that could be and would make sense. 
 

that said, Auspex Tactics showed a damage chart on his video. Here it is. Despite my earlier misgivings, it generally seems well balanced.

 

The chain fist and lightning claws are also suitably skewed toward their ideal targets, which is nice. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Paladin777

[Paladin777]

Something else I didn't notice before is the interaction of devastating wounds and Anti-infantry on the combi weapon. Mortal wounds against infantry on a W roll of 4+ makes it a much more balanced option when compared to the storm bolter...

 

The loss of flavor still kinda bites though. 

[Karhedron]

Agreed. Combi weapons are now a good option for taking out elite infantry with Invulnerable saves (e.g. other Terminators). A 10-man squad of Sternguard can nearly wipe out a 5-man Terminator squad if they all have combis and you hit the Termies with OOM.

[Paladin777]

They'd deal 13.33 wounds under those conditions on average, so pretty close. 
 

Make sure you don't put a lieutenant in that squad...

Edited May 10, 2023 by Paladin777

[Tokugawa]

Wait, does "anti infantry 4+" pairing with "devastating wounds" means every 4,5 and 6 turn into MW?

[WrathOfTheLion]

43 minutes ago, Tokugawa said:

Wait, does "anti infantry 4+" pairing with "devastating wounds" means every 4,5 and 6 turn into MW?

Yes, as anti-infantry means a 4+ to wound becomes a critical wound, and devastating wounds says that critical wounds (which are normally an unmodified 6) turn the damage to mortal wounds.

 

It'll also mean chain fists are going to become a lot more interesting if there's a way to give them devastating wounds.

Edited May 11, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Wait, does "anti infantry 4+" pairing with "devastating wounds" means every 4,5 and 6 turn into MW?

 

Yup, exactly that. We are used to thinking of anti-infantry as being for taking out hordes but when paired with DWs, it is actually really good at taking out elite infantry like Terminators and Custodians.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Karhedron

[Paladin777]

I double checked some of the generated numbers on the chart, and they're not correct... Ugga. 

 

I'll have to make one myself...

 

I'll get back to you guys on that. 
 

edit: we actually got the same result on the vast majority of them. He rounded down a little much with the claws on the termigaunts, and I think we did our maths different for the TH vs terminators. I got 2.77 where he got 2.4. Given the nature of attacking a 3w model with 2D weapon, that's understandable. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Paladin777