BA and Tenth Edition - Facts Discussion

[Karhedron]

33 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

Side note: I know this isn't a thread for speculation, but has anyone else been wondering about BGV with the probable change to shields?

 

The Terminator Captain gets a Relic Shield. It is possible that units without an Invuln still get access to the classic 4++ Stormshield.

 

On the other hand, Tau Shield Drones also provide +1W in 10th so maybe this is the way?

[Helias_Tancred]

Yeah some 40k talking head sorts have been suggesting shields will just add wounds to all models carrying them ...

 

I think they're trying to reduce the amount of invulns and also keep them at 4+ max, and prefer 5+?

 

 

[Tokugawa]

12 minutes ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

Yeah some 40k talking head sorts have been suggesting shields will just add wounds to all models carrying them ...

 

I think they're trying to reduce the amount of invulns and also keep them at 4+ max, and prefer 5+?

 

 

But they gave all terminators nature borned 4++. If storm shield is +1W then W4 terminators would be disgusting op. That would also result no one want to buy other variants of terminators. 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Tokugawa

[Karhedron]

4 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

But they gave all terminators nature borned 4++. If storm shield is +1W then W4 terminators would be disgusting op. That would also result no one want to buy other variants of terminators. 

 

Hmm, it depends what is shooting at them. Here is the increase in firepower needed to kill a 4W Termie over a 3 wound one depending on the weapon firing.

1. Damage weapons (small arms) - 33% increase
2. Damage weapons (Power Fists etc) - No change
3. Damage weapons (Battle cannon) - 100% increase
4. Damage weapons and above - No change

The effect of +1W on Termies depends heavily on what is shooting at them. However since 3D weapons seem to be the strongest that can still come with a high RoF (Battlecannons etc), it does look like a significant buff.

[Paladin777]

@Tokugawa Considering that TH's aren't really any better than power fists on terminators (just a little different, trading general accuracy for Devastating Wounds), and TH/SS terminators don't have range weapons, I could definitely see people wanting to field terminators other than those with storm shields. 

[The Unseen]

After giving the core rules a read, and reading others comments about what's changed, I don't think it looks good for us brothers 

Combat movement has been more or less completely neutered AND getting every model to be able to fight is now harder, FLY has been nerfed, melta is joke into big targets, and those big targets can freely shoot out of combat, the T changes heavily reduce the effectiveness of +1 to wound vs the big stuff (assuming we even keep that, no guarantee of course since no reveal yet, but it we keep Oath its a much better shooting buff than it is a melee one)

 

It's obviously early, and I'm not claiming the sky is falling just yet, but the core rules seem to *heavily* favor shooting units and vehicles. Melee received basically nothing but nerfs.

[Arkangilos]

4 minutes ago, The Unseen said:

but it we keep Oath

We won’t. We are our own army. 

[Jolemai]

Summary:

 

  

On 5/19/2023 at 12:58 AM, Valerian said:

I think there is some confusion here on how some of this is going to work.  Of course, maybe I'm the one that is confused, but here is my interpretation based on my reading of the WarCom releases so far.

 

After selecting the Battle Size and then figuring out how you're going to write down your Army Roster, you Choose a Faction.  This is the step that decides your Faction keyword, which for us should be Space Wolves.  From that point, we should be able to select any Datasheet that contains the Space Wolves keyword.  With the only restriction that you can't select the same Datasheet more than 3 times, unless it also has the Battleline keyword. 

 

After the Choose a Faction step, the next step is to  Select Detachment Rules.  These Detachment rules ought not have anything to do with what Datasheets you can select from, as those were determined in the previous step.  Instead, your Detachment rules give you specific Special Abilities, Enhancements, Stratagems, and perhaps Unit Restrictions.  

 

For instance, at the start of 10th edition, before the first codex is released, an Adeptus Astartes faction will get the Oath of Moment army rule.  While the starting Gladius Task Force detachment will grant the Combat Doctrines special ability, four exclusive Enhancements, and six unique Stratagems.

 

If you chose to fight with a different Detachment, you'd replace Combat Doctrines and the Stratagems, and Enhancements with those of the new Detachment.

 

They also have told us that Detachment choice will very rarely be tied to an army color scheme.  And this makes a lot of sense, because our unit datasheets are not dictated by the Detachment that we select in Step 4, but rather by the Faction that that we have chosen in Step 3.

 

To make their work a whole lot easier here at the beginning of 10th edition, GW has said that the Gladius Task Force Detachment is going to be available to every Space Marine Chapter, whether they're adherents of the Codex Astartes (and will be covered in the new Codex Space Marines that will be released a few months into the new edition), or are slightly more eccentric (cough, cough, Space Wolves).

 

So, the way I interpret this is that the Codex-compliant Chapters, like Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, and so on, are all considered a single Faction, and are therefore covered by the same Codex.  While the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels are all going to be considered different Factions, and therefore will be covered by their own unique Index, and later their own unique Codex.  However, despite all being considered different Factions, they are all going to have access to a shared Army Rule (Oath of Moment), as well as a commonly available Detachment (Gladius Strike Force).  This shared Detachment Rule will work, because each of the unit datacards in each of these different Factions will have the shared 'Adeptus Astartes' Faction Keyword, in addition to their '<Chapter>' Faction Keyword.  

 

Interestingly, we've also been told that the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels are all going get their own unique Detachment rules, (in addition to the Gladius Strike Force).  My hope and expectation is that at least one of those will be available for each of the Codex non-compliant Chapters right at the start of 10th edition with the initial Index, and that we'll later get several additional Detachment choices when the Codex eventually drops.

 

If you think I've missed something and am way off-base let me know.  My sources for this were the following articles on Warhammer Community:

 

How Army Building Works.

Faction Rules are Leaner and Cleaner.

Faction Focus: Space Marines.

 

 

 

 

 

[Pathstrider]

That makes sense to me - I suspect it will come down to practicalities. I doubt we’ll be getting a full set of index cards.

 

Instead they’ll reference the marine ones, which all have oath of the moment printed on them. 

[Karhedron]

Quote

After selecting the Battle Size and then figuring out how you're going to write down your Army Roster, you Choose a Faction.  This is the step that decides your Faction keyword, which for us should be Space Wolves.  From that point, we should be able to select any Datasheet that contains the Space Wolves keyword.  With the only restriction that you can't select the same Datasheet more than 3 times, unless it also has the Battleline keyword. 

 

After the Choose a Faction step, the next step is to  Select Detachment Rules.  These Detachment rules ought not have anything to do with what Datasheets you can select from, as those were determined in the previous step.  Instead, your Detachment rules give you specific Special Abilities, Enhancements, Stratagems, and perhaps Unit Restrictions.  

 

This is the bit I am unsure about. Is our faction rule going to be Oath of Moment or not? Guilliman has the Ultramarine faction keyword but his Faction Ability is still OOM. My thought is that taking a faction keyword just means you are not allowed to mix and match, not that you automatically get a new Faction Ability.

 

For example, imagines Grey Hunters had the Adeptus Astartes and Space Wolves keywords. Now they could be included in an army with Intercessors (who only have the Adeptus Astertes keyword) but not Guilliman who also has the Ultramarines keyword. However they all still have the Oath of Moment ability. In fact I think that this is the only way it could work as otherwise you would need duplicate datasheets for common Marine units with every subfaction rule included.

 

So my hunch is that Space Wolves will still get OOM but if they take a different Detachment, they will have the option to take something other than GSF with Doctrines. So if you take a Space Wolves list and still take the GSF, it will play the same as any other Chapter using the GSF. The only wolfy flavour will come from unique units. If you want wolfy rules applying to generic SM units like Intercessors, that will only happen if you take a hypothetical "Great Company" detachment.

 

At least that is how it looks to me at the moment. We should know more by Friday.

[Arkangilos]

Yeah we will find out tomorrow, but I don’t think it will be OoM. I think it will be something that thematically fits the faction.

Like I’m thinking the BA will replace OoM with a Flaw type rule.

[DemonGSides]

8 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

This is the bit I am unsure about. Is our faction rule going to be Oath of Moment or not? Guilliman has the Ultramarine faction keyword but his Faction Ability is still OOM. My thought is that taking a faction keyword just means you are not allowed to mix and match, not that you automatically get a new Faction Ability.

 

For example, imagines Grey Hunters had the Adeptus Astartes and Space Wolves keywords. Now they could be included in an army with Intercessors (who only have the Adeptus Astertes keyword) but not Guilliman who also has the Ultramarines keyword. However they all still have the Oath of Moment ability. In fact I think that this is the only way it could work as otherwise you would need duplicate datasheets for common Marine units with every subfaction rule included.

 

So my hunch is that Space Wolves will still get OOM but if they take a different Detachment, they will have the option to take something other than GSF with Doctrines. So if you take a Space Wolves list and still take the GSF, it will play the same as any other Chapter using the GSF. The only wolfy flavour will come from unique units. If you want wolfy rules applying to generic SM units like Intercessors, that will only happen if you take a hypothetical "Great Company" detachment.

 

At least that is how it looks to me at the moment. We should know more by Friday.

 

My guess is that this is how it works for Index, but once Codex drops, that'll all change.

Make it easier to get us all transitioned, then we can make it complicated again, so that they can transition us again in 3-4 years :P

[Karhedron]

16 hours ago, The Unseen said:

the T changes heavily reduce the effectiveness of +1 to wound vs the big stuff (assuming we even keep that, no guarantee of course since no reveal yet, but it we keep Oath its a much better shooting buff than it is a melee one)

 

Actually the increase in Toughness makes +1 to Wound more valuable. In 10th, Power Fists will need a 5+ to wound anything from a Rhino on upwards which is a big change from the 3+ they need currently. However since it looks like everything will continue to wound on a 6, Red Thirst would mean all our melee attacks wound on a 5+ at worst. That is actully pretty big. Imagine our Chainswords having the same chance to Wound a Necron Monolith as everyone else's Power Fists. And our Terminators would be wounding pretty much everything in the game on a 4+ which is pretty good.

 

Anyway, all this is hypothetical as we don't know if Red Thirst in its current form will exist in 10th. If it does I will actually be pleasantly surprised.

[The Unseen]

When your normally wounding on 6s going to 5s doesn't matter much, despite being on paper a 100% increase it won't let you take on big stuff reliably either way. Powerfists going from 5s to 4s is good, but that's a far cry from today when T-hammers were wounding the toughest stuff in the game on 3s at worse and doing 3 damage a pop.

Chainswords in the assault doctrine go from wounding all but the biggest tanks on 4s with AP-2, to wounding on 5s with AP-1 when a lot of them have had their save boosted to 2+ from 3. 

 

[Paladin777]

That's the point. Everything is supposed to be more durable against pretty much everything. They're trying to make it so that 40k isn't just a big game of rocket tag anymore, and I appreciate that. 
 

I'm honestly not worried about my bois in red. I'm far more concerned about my Thousand Sons...

Edited May 31, 2023 by Paladin777

[Paladin777]

This is worth noting. 
 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/legions-and-legends-warhammer-the-horus-heresy-models-in-games-of-warhammer-40000/

[Jolemai]

Yep. Adding to list. I use Legends anyway, but it's a tad annoying going forward.

[Jolemai]

Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Space Marine Chapters - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

 

What passes for our Faction Focus.

[Pathstrider]

Better than I expected on red thirst, tbh - I was expecting plus one str only.

 

One minor thing, weren’t bolt rifles supposed to get heavy and assault? Can’t see any sign of it.

[Paladin777]

Maybe DC intercessors just don't get the keywords... or it'll get errata'd day 2. 
 

Our detachment rule does seem like power fist (and equivalent) weapons are going to be the way to go. +1 attack on a fist is far superior to +1 attack on a power weapon/lightning claw. 

 

It also looks like I'm going to have to figure out how to modify my tartaros terminators. The sergeant and RAC guy are fine with chainfists, but the other three have a SB/LC combo... :(

[Blindhamster]

34 minutes ago, Pathstrider said:

Better than I expected on red thirst, tbh - I was expecting plus one str only.

 

One minor thing, weren’t bolt rifles supposed to get heavy and assault? Can’t see any sign of it.

Im guessing DC lose heavy and assault for "reasons", probably to show they arent in their right minds enough to make full use of those options. The special rules they have are very thematic though!

 

Red thirst is only when we charge now, not when we get charged, and we lost the bonus to charge. Overall:
- losing the bonus to advance/charge sucks

- losing the red thirst benefit when we are charged sucks

- losing +1 to wound and instead gaining +1 strength sucks (but isn't a surprise)

- gaining +1 attack is kinda moot as thats what our "super doctrine" gave anyway. So is a net average

 

overall,  i'd say our detachment rule is actually worse than simply using the gladius detachment rules from a pure power perspective.

[Cleon]

I'm a little lost on exactly how these rules interact...

Say I have two units of Death Company Intercessors and a unit of Aggressors - Can I overwatch normally with the aggressors and then use the Death Company Intercessors rules to overwatch twice more for free, or am I still limited to one Overwatch per turn but it's free if the Death Company Intercessors do it?

[Jolemai]

DW bolters are 2A and not Rapid Fire 1 

[Paladin777]

Pretty much all astartes bolters are 2 shots, as opposed to RF1. 

[Metzombie]

13 minutes ago, Jolemai said:

DW bolters are 2A and not Rapid Fire 1 

The same as CSM an most likely all other Space Marines.