Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus - Chaos Space Marines

[Kallas]

33 minutes ago, Prot said:

A dead CSM can't take advantage of their new rule either. 

A Necron Warrior gains no benefit from Reanimation Protocols while alive. They only benefit from it after an enemy kills that model, but does not destroy the unit.

A Marine does not benefit from OOM when dead either.

Tyranids gain no benefit from an enemy unit failing their Battleshock test if their Tyranid units are dead.

 

This is a pretty irrelevant point.

 

I would agree that having a downside to the CSM Dark Pact is...questionable, but I don't think it is a severe penalty, and is by far the most widespread and easily accessible buff of any of the Army Rules so far.

 

36 minutes ago, Prot said:

It's actually far more flexible than it's previous version, which again, I used every game. It was that strong.

Yes and no. Yes, it's far more flexible than the Seal of Oath, but in terms of 10E Army Rules, it is inflexible: you pick one enemy unit in your Command Phase as the target for your entire force. Is it good? Absolutely. Is it flexible? Eh, sort of. It can be changed as the battle progresses, which makes it flexible over the course of a game, but in terms of each turn it is not.

 

As Metzombie says, if you pick a big scary target (eg, Terminator deathstar) as your target, your unit of Intercessors going after a unit of CSM Legionnaries is not benefitting at all.

 

33 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Unless I'm severely mistaken, don't most CSM have good Leadership? And ways to improve it on top of that?

Legionnaries were shown to have Ld 6+, which is a base success chance of 72%.

 

We can safely assume that Terminators, Chosen and other elite units will be at least Ld 6+, with a reasonable chance of being 5+. Possessed and Obliterators may be 6+ and not necessarily likely to be 5+, but that's still a better than 2/3 chance of succeeding any given Dark Pact roll. If a Ld 6+ unit can have an Icon (which the 9E CSM Codex stripped out a lot, unfortunately) then the success chance increases to 92.3% (or a failure chance of 7.7%; roughly a 1 in 14 chance to fail, so more than quadrupling your likelihood to avoid taking Dark Pact damage).

 

Some of it will depend on if elite units get their Icons back, as Terminators suffering more DP failures than Legionnaires would be kind of sad.

[prava]

9 hours ago, Grendaxe said:

Sorry but I think your math is wrong?

If we look at the extra hit option on bolter CSM:

You have a 1/6 chance to gain an additional hit. This is a 16% damage increase not 25% on average.

 

In your example: 18 shots, 12 hits initially and then 2 extra hits. (18×(4/6)×(1/6)= 2).

So 14 hits instead of 12 = 16% increase.

 

On the other hand if you fail the LD check (on average) you lose 2 wounds which means you lose a model. And so you only get 16 shots.

 

(16×(4/6)×(7/6) = 12.4 hits. So you basically you lost a model for 0 reward.

 

The wound one is a bit more complex because technically you could shoot at tanks and thus with the auto wound do 100% more wounds but noone is going to care because you only do 1 dmg.

 

Also you wrote that it's a 25% increase at worst but this not true. Someone could easily roll 0 sixes getting 0 extra hits. Techincally at worst you can fail the LD and lose 2 models (1 already wounded) and thus 4 shots and get a 28.5% damage loss.

 

If you put this next to oath or the necron ability, who don't have downsides, I think it's pretty bad. And I don't even play CSM.

 

That is not how it works.

 

Getting an extra hit on 6s is good or bad depending on your initial ability to hit. The better you natively hit, the worse the ability is, and viceversa. An ORK with BS5+ increases its output by 50%. A Custodin with its BS2+ only gets a 20%.

 

If we go to the extreme case of OVERWATCH (ie you only hit on 6s), this ability doubles your damage output. For the simple reason that you have 1/6 of getting an initial hit + 1/6 of getting an extra hit = 2/6. Compared to the initial 1/6 chance you get 100% increase.

 

In my example of the 18 shots, it is a 25% increase. Literally. Hitting on 3s you have 4/6 chance of scoring a hit. Your 6s get you an extra one so your chance to hit is 4/6 + 1/6. And 1/6 = 0,25*4/6 so yea, 25% increase.

 

On the 18 shots... hitting on 3s is 12 hits. With exploding 6s you get 15 hits. 12 X 1,25 = 15.

 

Also, statistically you are losing something like 0,7 wounds each time you do the ability. On a 20 wound unit this is 2% of its total wounds. Meaning that the increase in damage is more valuable then what you can potentially lose. Add some special and heavy weapons into the mix and it gets even better.

 

Next one... the necron ability is defensive in nature. Which means that it does nothing if you have nothing to heal. And it also does nothing if the unit was killed outright. On the other hand, the Chaos rule always works, if you choose to use it. And it is very flexible because you can go towards more hits or easy wounds. And yes, it is a 25% increase at worst. We are talking statistics here, if you throw 100 dice you expect 1/6 of those being 6s. This is obviously not true, but just because it isn't it doesn't mean that the +25% damage output is invalid, because it isn't.

 

2 hours ago, Prot said:

 

This is also true.

 

As I see it, there is almost no real value to the rule. Taking math out of it, a large part of my point is "why is there a downside?".  If a necron warrior reanimates, is there a chance he blows up instead? If a Marine uses the oath, is there a chance on a roll of a 1 he shoots Guilliman in the head? Nope.

 

The reality is this CSM rule isn't good enough to have a punishment for it. Like I said I just went through the last several months playing the army with "sustained" hits through different phases and it's not that great. The idea that I may lose a havoc or a dreadnought takes damage just doesn't make any sense to me. I'd still MUCH rather have the loyalist rule. 

 

Fellow CSM players.... let me hear how many times you felt the power and strength of the last half year of exploding 6's felt like it needed to be offset by the potential for taking mortal wounds.

 

 

 

The rule doesn't really have a punishment... it has a POTENTIAL punishment. Chaos already had rules like this. If you check the CHAOS KNIGHTS they have something like this. Take damage for increased output.

 

Also, keep in mind that the OATH rule, although insanely powerful, is super targeted. And there might be rules out there that allow a player to protect a given unit. Chaos already has this (with the stratagem that gives it "stealth", whatever that means, and cant be targeted if nurgle), and other armies might also. Thus, your OATH would be invalid. 

 

At the same time, OATH against an army full of minimum sized units is not that optimal.

[Grendaxe]

1 hour ago, prava said:

 

That is not how it works.

 

Getting an extra hit on 6s is good or bad depending on your initial ability to hit. The better you natively hit, the worse the ability is, and viceversa. An ORK with BS5+ increases its output by 50%. A Custodin with its BS2+ only gets a 20%.

 

If we go to the extreme case of OVERWATCH (ie you only hit on 6s), this ability doubles your damage output. For the simple reason that you have 1/6 of getting an initial hit + 1/6 of getting an extra hit = 2/6. Compared to the initial 1/6 chance you get 100% increase.

 

In my example of the 18 shots, it is a 25% increase. Literally. Hitting on 3s you have 4/6 chance of scoring a hit. Your 6s get you an extra one so your chance to hit is 4/6 + 1/6. And 1/6 = 0,25*4/6 so yea, 25% increase.

 

On the 18 shots... hitting on 3s is 12 hits. With exploding 6s you get 15 hits. 12 X 1,25 = 15.

 

Also, statistically you are losing something like 0,7 wounds each time you do the ability. On a 20 wound unit this is 2% of its total wounds. Meaning that the increase in damage is more valuable then what you can potentially lose. Add some special and heavy weapons into the mix and it gets even better.

 

Next one... the necron ability is defensive in nature. Which means that it does nothing if you have nothing to heal. And it also does nothing if the unit was killed outright. On the other hand, the Chaos rule always works, if you choose to use it. And it is very flexible because you can go towards more hits or easy wounds. And yes, it is a 25% increase at worst. We are talking statistics here, if you throw 100 dice you expect 1/6 of those being 6s. This is obviously not true, but just because it isn't it doesn't mean that the +25% damage output is invalid, because it isn't.

 

 

The rule doesn't really have a punishment... it has a POTENTIAL punishment. Chaos already had rules like this. If you check the CHAOS KNIGHTS they have something like this. Take damage for increased output.

 

Also, keep in mind that the OATH rule, although insanely powerful, is super targeted. And there might be rules out there that allow a player to protect a given unit. Chaos already has this (with the stratagem that gives it "stealth", whatever that means, and cant be targeted if nurgle), and other armies might also. Thus, your OATH would be invalid. 

 

At the same time, OATH against an army full of minimum sized units is not that optimal.

Fair enough, you are correct. I don't have to filter out the hits and then check for the sixes. So on average a 25% is correct. But you stated that CSM would AT WORST get a 25% increase in damage which is simply not true.

 

And yes i know that you are more likely to pass the LD check then to fail it. So i know overall the ability will benefit more then it hurts.

I just don't think its powerful enough to warrant the downside + the additional dice rolling involved.

 

And I'm sorry but the necron argument doesn't make sense. If a CSM squad is dead it doesn't benefit from any rules to increase their damage either.

 

And sure we can look at mimum sized squad armies but we can also look at the amount of armies these days with centerpiece models.

 

I just think these 2 rules are equally strong (or stronger) without the downsides. But again i don't play CSM and we don't have the full picture yet, but i just thought you where painting the rule in a much better light then it was deserved. But i also learned i missed the part where models first attack and then die. Thanks to (among others) @RolandTHTG for pointing that out.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Grendaxe

[prava]

37 minutes ago, Grendaxe said:

Fair enough, you are correct. I don't have to filter out the hits and then check for the sixes. So on average a 25% is correct. But you stated that CSM would AT WORST get a 25% increase in damage which is simply not true.

 

And yes i know that you are more likely to pass the LD check then to fail it. So i know overall the ability will benefit more then it hurts.

I just don't think its powerful enough to warrant the downside + the additional dice rolling involved.

 

And I'm sorry but the necron argument doesn't make sense. If a CSM squad is dead it doesn't benefit from any rules to increase their damage either.

 

And sure we can look at mimum sized squad armies but we can also look at the amount of armies these days with centerpiece models.

 

I just think these 2 rules are equally strong (or stronger) without the downsides. But again i don't play CSM and we don't have the full picture yet, but i just thought you where painting the rule in a much better light then it was deserved. But i also learned i missed the part where models first attack and then die. Thanks to (among others) @RolandTHTG for pointing that out.

 

 

 

 

 

My comment about CSM getting at worst a +25% increase in damage is based on the following:

a) SUSTAINED HITS nets you a +33% increase if you use it on BS4+. On BS3+ is +25%.

b) If you use LETHAL HITS, there are instances in which you net much more than 25%, against high Toughness enemies.

 

And considering that you choose which ability to use, and when... yes, at worst you are netting +25%.

 

But if the necron squad is dead it also does not benefit. Nor it did benefit when it was a full health. But the CSM did benefit when it was alive.

 

Centerpiece models are getting much more tough to kill, and it looks like many are no longer titanic so you can hide them easily.

[BitsHammer]

3 hours ago, Kaiju Soze said:

Not exactly a long term CSM player (having taken 5E-8E  off and only started 9E around October), but I definitely share some of Prot's concerns about the Dark Pacts rule. There's still a lot of missing information, but my gut reaction is that I don't like CSM being the only faction with a drawback to their faction rule.

Don't worry, if tradition continues Orks will have a way to blow themselves up.

[Urkh]

5 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Somehow I doubt they'll be the only ones with a faction-wide Drawback.

 

If the 9th edition Black Templars vows become our faction ability, we will most likely have penalties to ours as well.

[jaxom]

"Mortal" bolters are A1 Rapid Fire 1 compared the Legionnaires A2. 

[Khornestar]

Veterans of the long war know the boltgun well. 

 

*devil horns*

 

7 hours ago, jaxom said:

"Mortal" bolters are A1 Rapid Fire 1 compared the Legionnaires A2. 

 

[tzeentch9]

I wonder if chosen will be able to pass their mortal wounds from a failed dark pact test onto another nearby unit. That would be quite flavourful. And useful if you can do it on enemy units

Edited May 11, 2023 by tzeentch9

[Iron Father Ferrum]

My assumption is that Chosen or Terminators or both will get both benefits when using the Dark Pact.

[Medicinal Carrots]

Running the math on how much damage you'll take:

 

6+ LD with an icon reroll is a bit over 0.15 wounds on average per activation. Or an average of 1 wound suffered every ~ 6.5 activations. Activating every chance you get, you'll probably lose 1, maybe 2 marines from the unit all game for a +25% or better damage output for the rest

6+ LD without a reroll is a bit under .56 wounds per activation. Average 1 wound per 1.8 activations

Not sure if cultists will be 7+ or 8+ LD, but either way you're looking at about 1 dead per activation (0.83 or 1.17 wounds)

 

And on which one's better to choose:

2+ or 3+ to wound, sustained hits are better (with or without a reroll to wound)

4+ to wound is a tossup with no wound reroll, and sustained hits are better with a wound reroll

5+ to wound, lethal hits are better with no wound reroll, and sustained hits are better with the reroll

6+ to wound, lethal hits are always better

 

TL;DR:

Always use dark pacts if you have an icon or other LD reroll. Use sparingly otherwise unless you can tank the wounds or afford to lose chaff. Lethal hits on 6+ to wound or 5+ without a reroll, sustained hits the rest of the time. Subject to change with any new rules that interact with pacts.