Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus - Chaos Space Marines

[Indy Techwisp]

We should probably defer judgement until after we've had a few non-astartes articles.

If T'au, Guard, Aeldari, Leagues, Necrons, etc. all end up with a bunch of re-rolls in their focus articles, then we have an issue.

[Indy Techwisp]

Alternatively they're showing Units with rerolls because they got a bunch of concerned messages that Rerolls were being removed entirely, so they're including then to placate those people.

 

Moving back to CSM tho, I wonder what the new stuff will be for their codex.

Probably those updated bikes that were rumoured for 9th.

[Bradeh]

Since the introduction of units like Primarchs, new Ghazghkull, new Abbadon, etc I do think it skews the game and how people judge it, people look at these units like they should or will be in every list when they should be a rarer pick, but the game actually feels like it's balanced around the Captain, Lord, Warboss as your HQ, as it was in the earlier editions. I wonder if it was a mistake to allow these mega character to be played so easily. 

[acrozatarim]

Bit sad to see that the old LtGB flamer boosts haven't been rolled into the core stats of flamers now. Ignoring cover is nice but I'm still struggling to see much reason to take a flamer over melta or plasma.

[Indy Techwisp]

4 minutes ago, acrozatarim said:

Bit sad to see that the old LtGB flamer boosts haven't been rolled into the core stats of flamers now. Ignoring cover is nice but I'm still struggling to see much reason to take a flamer over melta or plasma.

 

Well they Autohit, so that's something.

[Special Officer Doofy]

17 minutes ago, Bradeh said:

Since the introduction of units like Primarchs, new Ghazghkull, new Abbadon, etc I do think it skews the game and how people judge it, people look at these units like they should or will be in every list when they should be a rarer pick, but the game actually feels like it's balanced around the Captain, Lord, Warboss as your HQ, as it was in the earlier editions. I wonder if it was a mistake to allow these mega character to be played so easily. 

 

While true, there is no going back. They make GW lots of money. 

[Bradeh]

5 minutes ago, acrozatarim said:

Bit sad to see that the old LtGB flamer boosts haven't been rolled into the core stats of flamers now. Ignoring cover is nice but I'm still struggling to see much reason to take a flamer over melta or plasma.

 

If they're going back to free wargear the Flamer gets relegated to where it was in 7th and earlier, maybe worse because template is better than D6. Flamer was used for niche anti-infantry uses and because it was cheap. 

[BluejayJunior]

2 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Well they Autohit, so that's something.

True, also points might play a role. Flamers could be free, while plasma/melta cost extra. 

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, BluejayJunior said:

True, also points might play a role. Flamers could be free, while plasma/melta cost extra. 

 

I can say for certain that I will still be using flamers, but that's because I have TSons and Rubrics can have a full unit of them instead of only 1 or 2.

[acrozatarim]

To be a little more positive about something - I like the interactions between marks and stratagem here, where you don't need a mark to get a benefit but if you do, you get an improved version.

 

Still really hoping marks from the StD detachment rules have passive benefits as well, though.

[arnesh88]

25 minutes ago, acrozatarim said:

Ignoring cover is nice but I'm still struggling to see much reason to take a flamer over melta or plasma.

Main strength of flamers is for Overwatch purposes. I believe Overwatch is still hitting on 6s for most weapons. Not everyone finds a use for them, especially if it's a one-off weapon.

[Emperor Ming]

So that faction ability is a better hammer of the emperor and applies to melee

 

I'm sure that will go towards reducing the lethality of the game in 10th

[Indy Techwisp]

1 minute ago, Emperor Ming said:

So that faction ability is a better hammer of the emperor and applies to melee

 

I'm sure that will go towards reducing the lethality of the game in 10th

 

So everything having higher Toughness (except Abaddon and that seems to be so he matches the Terminators he's gonna be squadding up with) isn't reducing lethality?

[acrozatarim]

1 minute ago, Emperor Ming said:

So that faction ability is a better hammer of the emperor and applies to melee

 

I'm sure that will go towards reducing the lethality of the game in 10th

It's worse than Hammer of the Emperor. HotE was good because it was in an army with enormous amounts of cheap, S3 attacks, plus it didn't have the potential of exploding your own guys in an edition where battleshock can be very brutal.

[Dark Legionnare]

2 hours ago, Ruskinses said:

So the Chaos marine ability "veterans of the long war" and the Genestealer ability "Vanguard Predator" are exactly the same but have different names - wasnt the idea to avoid this? 

I was just about to say this. Oi vey. 

Just make a USR called "Break their lines" or something like that.

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

So everything having higher Toughness (except Abaddon and that seems to be so he matches the Terminators he's gonna be squadding up with) isn't reducing lethality?

 

I think there will be a net reduction, but at the moment with incomplete information there is a bit of a 'shuffle the deck chairs' going on in terms of GW's messaging and promotion.

[Indy Techwisp]

2 minutes ago, Dark Legionnare said:

I was just about to say this. Oi vey. 

Just make a USR called "Break their lines" or something like that.

 

It's possible that for the promo cards we haven't seen the whole rule for either.
Alternatively it's a WIP version and the final ability will be different.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So I was right, heavy weapons (on marines at least) allow you to move and fire on 3s, or stay still and hit on 2s. 

 

So even with fewer (but still a lot) rerolls, shooting is generally more consistent.

[Large and Moving Torb]

I see there's a typo in the second bullet under "Unit Composition": should read "4-19 Legionaries." Also going to need a Day One Errata to delete that "[duplicates are not allowed]" line.

 

In all seriousness though, there is a bit to ponder here, but I get where Design was going with some of this: Dark Pact creates a heightened risk vs. reward scenario for CSM, which has become their thing. Also, the rule means the cultist units take a bigger risk with invoking the dark powers as failure will mean model removal (and less combative effectiveness in a following phase) while a failure for Legionaries might not result in model removal. Also, the Havoc autocannon stat line is interesting. Potentially hitting on a 2+ and the improved damage seems nice. On the other hand, I see the reaper chaincannon got beaten about the head, neck and chest with the Nerf bat. It does seem like the push is for pistol + chainsword for Legionaries; being able to pump out four attacks per model with Dark Pact active makes the unit more menacing.

 

To properly assess the trade-offs here, we really need to see points costs. I mean, if an icon was zilch or five points then that's great and means Dark Pact might actually be a threat. If icons are expensive, then that's going to really hinder Dark Pact's usefulness.

 

As for what the "Mounted" keyword portends, along with what others have guessed I really hope it means a Khorne-marked JuggerLord is returning to the faction as an option. I mean, there is an official kit for it now - no need for timid souls having to worry about all that scary "converting" that would be needed otherwise. 

[Captain Idaho]

I can't speak for Chaos Marines players and how they feel about it, but I do like the feel of Dark Pact. Making units more powerful but with a risky tradeoff of D3 Mortal Wounds is a way of distilling background lore into the game in an abstract way.

 

I like it, though of course I know some people find it frustrating when your models take damage in your own turn, so I appreciate it might not be what they wanted too.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Captain Idaho
Words, words for the word God.

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, Captain Idaho said:

I can't speak for Chaos Marines players and how they feel about it, but I do like the feel of Dark Pact. Making units more powerful but with a risky tradeoff of D3 Mortal Wounds is a way of distilling background law into the game in an abstract way.

 

I like it, though of course I know some people find it frustrating when your models take damage in your own turn, so I appreciate it might not be what they wanted too.

 

As far as the very specific CSM items here, I have no issue. There is a cost to power, that seems fine to me honestly.

 

It doesnt answer any of the concerns around sub faction rules that Chaos always gets burned on I dont think, so that will have to wait.

[Bradeh]

Now that GW has clarified their intentions with Firstborn more it doesn't feel right that Chaos are left with a wimpy Holy Bolter, they should either upgrade all bolters or downgrade Primaris.

[Karhedron]

7 minutes ago, KrakenBorn said:

Disappointing to see the humble boltgun gets nothing, it should have of at least been given assault or RF 1.

 

2 shots at 24" range is better than RF1 I think. It means Marines can always move and fire 2 shots out to 24" (unless they Advance).

[Karhedron]

5 minutes ago, Bradeh said:

Now that GW has clarified their intentions with Firstborn more it doesn't feel right that Chaos are left with a wimpy Holy Bolter, they should either upgrade all bolters or downgrade Primaris.

 

This seems OK to me. Loyalist Marines get regular Troops and slightly buffed Troops (assuming Tactical Squads are still a thing). CSM just get the regular Legionaire squads but also have access to cheap Cultists to use as meat shields or Objective campers which is something loyalists lack. I think that is more fitting than both sides being perfect mirrors of each other.

[acrozatarim]

17 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I can't speak for Chaos Marines players and how they feel about it, but I do like the feel of Dark Pact. Making units more powerful but with a risky tradeoff of D3 Mortal Wounds is a way of distilling background law into the game in an abstract way.

 

I like it, though of course I know some people find it frustrating when your models take damage in your own turn, so I appreciate it might not be what they wanted too.

 

As a CSM player, I'm not super-keen on 'injure your own guys for power' like this, narratively-speaking, since it'd mean there'd soon be no Chaos Space Marines left since they'd all have died from dark pacts, but mechanically I'm not completely opposed to something that's a trade-off like this - CSM are definitely supposed to be hopped up on warp power after all.

My big issue, really, is that it's a not very exciting and rather minor benefit for the chance of the risk. If Chaos has to have a hurt-yourself power as its core thing, I'd much rather Dark Pact be a button you hit to give a more potent bonus and in return always suck down d3 mortal wounds for it. Having to make a bunch of extra Ld tests during my turn for what will largely just be one or two more wounds inflicted here and there at best doesn't excite me, it just makes me sigh at the extra admin of having to make Dark Pact decisions and dice rolls on top of everything else. Meanwhile Space Marines get to point at a thing on the table and go that :cuss:ing dies, and Tyranids get to bring down the Shadow of the Warp to fry comms and spread terror. Dark Pact, in this form, strikes me as deeply underwhelming.

Something that might make me change my mind is if there's a bunch of units that have their own special rules for interacting with Dark Pact, a bit like we've see with Terminators having extra benefits wrt Oath of Moment. If I can maybe do some extra cool stuff Dark Pacting daemon engines, or if Dark Pacting cultist mutants makes more cultists explode with greater mutations, or whatnot, then it could be salvageable. If, instead, we just get 'nope, can't even Dark Pact several units at all' then my disappointment will deepen.