Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus - Chaos Space Marines

[Doctor Perils]

18 minutes ago, Large and Moving Torb said:

I see there's a typo in the second bullet under "Unit Composition": should read "4-19 Legionaries." Also going to need a Day One Errata to delete that "[duplicates are not allowed]" line.

 

In all seriousness though, there is a bit to ponder here, but I get where Design was going with some of this: Dark Pact creates a heightened risk vs. reward scenario for CSM, which has become their thing. Also, the rule means the cultist units take a bigger risk with invoking the dark powers as failure will mean model removal (and less combative effectiveness in a following phase) while a failure for Legionaries might not result in model removal. Also, the Havoc autocannon stat line is interesting. Potentially hitting on a 2+ and the improved damage seems nice. On the other hand, I see the reaper chaincannon got beaten about the head, neck and chest with the Nerf bat. It does seem like the push is for pistol + chainsword for Legionaries; being able to pump out four attacks per model with Dark Pact active makes the unit more menacing.

 

To properly assess the trade-offs here, we really need to see points costs. I mean, if an icon was zilch or five points then that's great and means Dark Pact might actually be a threat. If icons are expensive, then that's going to really hinder Dark Pact's usefulness.

 

As for what the "Mounted" keyword portends, along with what others have guessed I really hope it means a Khorne-marked JuggerLord is returning to the faction as an option. I mean, there is an official kit for it now - no need for timid souls having to worry about all that scary "converting" that would be needed otherwise. 

I'd absolutely love that! Once upon a time I bought some Thunderwolf Cav wanting to make a Juggerlord or skullcrushers if they ever came out, but never got round to using them as such before juggerlords were sent to legends, then brought back for WE specifically.

I don't imagine they'll do it for a second, but one can hope :)

 

9 minutes ago, KrakenBorn said:

Disappointing to see the humble boltgun gets nothing, it should have of at least been given assault or RF 1.

 

The rest of it is fine though; dark pacts is a pretty good faction rule and easily as good as the SM Oath of moment.

At least they became base 2 shots, streamlining the system considerably and being nothing to sniff at.

 

Considering their CCW are still fairly decent with 3 attacks, I'm thinking having a mix of chainswords and boltguns will be at least decent if not necessarily optimal. Looking forwards to trying them out.

 

Considering the marks seem to be linked to detachment choice, I'm interested in finding out what else will be available when the codex comes out. Probably something along the lines of the Cogs of Vashtorr at least (which may become my go-to choice); hopefully something for Raptor Cults even if I'm not their biggest fan; probably something for the possessed and/or cultist boosting to simulate Word Bearers and Alpha Legion; and perhaps an Emperor’s Children detachment as a stopgap for their Codex - though that could be released in a white dwarf alongside the codex in a similar manner to the World Eaters were in 9th; Probably something for Corsairs and/or Bile, ie something that boosts the effectiveness of basic legionaries and bikers, not necessarily linked to the "warband" as such

I wonder if they might also give the renegades from Vigilus a bone, with a detachment-wide mark unlike the basic Slaves to Darkness mix and match...

 

 

Needless to say, I'm feeling rather excited

[Blindhamster]

9 minutes ago, acrozatarim said:

 

As a CSM player, I'm not super-keen on 'injure your own guys for power' like this, narratively-speaking, since it'd mean there'd soon be no Chaos Space Marines left since they'd all have died from dark pacts, but mechanically I'm not completely opposed to something that's a trade-off like this - CSM are definitely supposed to be hopped up on warp power after all.

My big issue, really, is that it's a not very exciting and rather minor benefit for the chance of the risk. If Chaos has to have a hurt-yourself power as its core thing, I'd much rather Dark Pact be a button you hit to give a more potent bonus and in return always suck down d3 mortal wounds for it. Having to make a bunch of extra Ld tests during my turn for what will largely just be one or two more wounds inflicted here and there at best doesn't excite me, it just makes me sigh at the extra admin of having to make Dark Pact decisions and dice rolls on top of everything else. Meanwhile Space Marines get to point at a thing on the table and go that :cuss:ing dies, and Tyranids get to bring down the Shadow of the Warp to fry comms and spread terror. Dark Pact, in this form, strikes me as deeply underwhelming.

Something that might make me change my mind is if there's a bunch of units that have their own special rules for interacting with Dark Pact, a bit like we've see with Terminators having extra benefits wrt Oath of Moment. If I can maybe do some extra cool stuff Dark Pacting daemon engines, or if Dark Pacting cultist mutants makes more cultists explode with greater mutations, or whatnot, then it could be salvageable. If, instead, we just get 'nope, can't even Dark Pact several units at all' then my disappointment will deepen.

Lethal hits is likely going to be auto wounds or something similar, sustained hits is additional hits… you can, if you wish, do it on the entire army, and it doesn’t seem to be limited to melee or ranged, meaning that’s a lot of damage potential, and it’s able to be against any and every target. Compared to oath of moment which is a single target per turn (outside of guilliman shenanigans)

[acrozatarim]

A squad of ten Legionaries with chainswords slamming into intercessors on an objective kills one additional intercessor from Dark Pact. It's not nothing, but it's not much either - hardly making me feel like we're talking about deadly warriors drawing upon nightmarish pacts of daemonic power, and now I have to make an additional layer of choices and dice rolls just to squeeze out this relatively small extra edge.

[lansalt]

49 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

This seems OK to me. Loyalist Marines get regular Troops and slightly buffed Troops (assuming Tactical Squads are still a thing). CSM just get the regular Legionaire squads but also have access to cheap Cultists to use as meat shields or Objective campers which is something loyalists lack. I think that is more fitting than both sides being perfect mirrors of each other.

IMO this will end with many CSM players still using them with chainswords like in 9th. I don't get GW's insistence in cannon fodder cultists/poxwalkers/tzaangors or elite terminators when the main attraction for most people are traitor marines in power armour.  BTW loyalist have also suffered this issue with scouts becoming the main troops in past editions.

The bolt rifle extra range should be enough over the old bolters.

 

 

 

[spessmarine]

5 minutes ago, lansalt said:

IMO this will end with many CSM players still using them with chainswords like in 9th. I don't get GW's insistence in cannon fodder cultists/poxwalkers/tzaangors or elite terminators when the main attraction for most people are traitor marines in power armour.  BTW loyalist have also suffered this issue with scouts becoming the main troops in past editions.

The bolt rifle extra range should be enough over the old bolters.

 

 

 

At least scouts are space marines unlike the Thousand Goats matter 

[sitnam]

19 minutes ago, lansalt said:

The bolt rifle extra range should be enough over the old bolters.

Why does this discussion always ignore the fact that the units that carry around old style bolters get extra weapon options Intercessors don't get. 

[zero888]

The Dark Pact effects I like, and compared to Oath I like that they are extremely different. The biggest issue I see is the amount of time all those LD tests (potentially half of them re-rollable). Most people are probably going to Dark Pact every unit every turn... That's a lot of tests. Not to mention what kind of FnP rules will exist for whatever wounds do happen.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Emperor Ming said:

So that faction ability is a better hammer of the emperor and applies to melee

 

I'm sure that will go towards reducing the lethality of the game in 10th

 

Chaos Marines have usually had more of a melee bent to them. It's also though were the strength of Dark Pact is most apparent for Legionnaires because of the 4 chainsword attacks (or 3 close combat weapon attacks) compared to 2 bolter attacks. 

 

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

So I was right, heavy weapons (on marines at least) allow you to move and fire on 3s, or stay still and hit on 2s. 

 

So even with fewer (but still a lot) rerolls, shooting is generally more consistent.

 

I think it may be copy-and-pasting from Havocs who currently ignore the move-and-shoot heavy penalty. The Reaper Chaincannon is Heavy BS4+ while its the Havoc Autocannon which is Heavy BS3+

 

21 minutes ago, acrozatarim said:

A squad of ten Legionaries with chainswords slamming into intercessors on an objective kills one additional intercessor from Dark Pact. It's not nothing, but it's not much either - hardly making me feel like we're talking about deadly warriors drawing upon nightmarish pacts of daemonic power, and now I have to make an additional layer of choices and dice rolls just to squeeze out this relatively small extra edge.

 

I did some math and I now I have to start over because I forgot about the re-rolls for melee.

 

[bigtrouble]

Wow, things just keep getting better!

 

I love that auras are focused on the warlord types, so only a few expensive models per army.

 

That Dark Pact ability is going to be fun for both players. Can’t wait to see how they treat Orks!

 

Theres a separate sheet for chaos weapons, so we’re already seeing the space limitations of the “single data sheet” idea?

 

 

[jaxom]

Okay, math done correctly. I looked at melee attacks against MEQ and GEQ. Sustained Hits 1 is the better choice if using Dark Pact. I expect that might change if I were to look at attacks against T6 and higher targets. I assumed a full 10 person unit of attacks.

 

Close combat weapons get one extra unsaved wound with SH1 (3.89 vs 4.86) against MEQ so it can be useful for nudging probably two dead Marines into two dead Marines.

 

Chainswords get two extra unsaved wounds with SH1 (7.78 to 9.72) against MEQ.

 

Close combat weapons get three-ish extra unsaved wounds with SH1 (10.37 vs 12.96) against GEQ.

 

Chainswords get three-ish extra unsaved wounds with SH1 (17.28 to 21.60) against GEQ.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, lansalt said:

The bolt rifle extra range should be enough over the old bolters.

 

I thought that bolt rifles had dropped to 24" range.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

4 hours ago, TheMawr said:

 

Makes sure you dont end up with a big chariot carried by wolves running down tiny spaceship tunnels, because you forget chariot was a thing in addition to cavalry ;) universalising all those makes sense.

 

The context was the CSM article.. I don't know if you're trying to relate that to the game in general, but yes I am fully aware there are more units with the mounted type than just bikers. However, as far as CSM is concerned bikers are the only CSM units Abby would affect... no? 

[spessmarine]

23 minutes ago, bigtrouble said:

Theres a separate sheet for chaos weapons, so we’re already seeing the space limitations of the “single data sheet” idea?

Yeah... That was less than stellar, feels odd for the half-and-half approach. These cards feeling cramped real fast

[MasterDeath]

1 hour ago, acrozatarim said:

A squad of ten Legionaries with chainswords slamming into intercessors on an objective kills one additional intercessor from Dark Pact. It's not nothing, but it's not much either - hardly making me feel like we're talking about deadly warriors drawing upon nightmarish pacts of daemonic power, and now I have to make an additional layer of choices and dice rolls just to squeeze out this relatively small extra edge.

How many termagants die in that scenario with sustained Hits?

[Marshal Mittens]

Abbadon will probably have a squad of 10 terminators, which make him tougher than his toughness indicates, I think!

[DemonGSides]

28 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

Yeah... That was less than stellar, feels odd for the half-and-half approach. These cards feeling cramped real fast

 

Just try to imagine how much wailing and gnashing of teeth would be had here if they had taken the smarter road and just limited what weapons they can take.  Whew, there would've been a revolt!

[acrozatarim]

24 minutes ago, MasterDeath said:

How many termagants die in that scenario with sustained Hits?

GEQs are pretty much the ideal targets for melee legionaries, so the numbers here are decent; 10 chainsword marines fighting termagants on an objective deal 19.8 wounds to termagants normally, or 24.7 wounds on Sustained Hits.

[Verbal Underbelly]

A lot of ground has been covered in this article already with lots of varied and equally valid points.

 

Something I find very interesting is the change to heavy melee weapons. Essentially, a 10 man unit can have two power fists with no hit roll penalty. That's interesting ay?

[OttoVonAwesome]

With that 4++ Aura I can't imagine ever playing against Chaos and not seeing Abbadon on the table. Was kinda hoping that Special Characters wouldn't be the major force multipliers that they were but I geuss that's out the window lol. At least I'm already used to seeing these buttholes in every single game already.

 

Dark Pact kinda bothers me as I feel it shoulda been a detachment ability and not the core army ability. What about the legions that don't really make dark pacts like Iron Warriors and Night Lords? Being renegades and veterans of the long war is thier common identity and constantly beseeching the chaos gods for power is the Word Bearers thing. They didn't even show the actual detachment rule either wich is pretty lame. But yeah even if they do like Seige detachment or Terror detachment it's still not gonna really feel like hardcore Iron Warriors or Night lords or renegades cuase they are all basically fanatics and zealots by defualt.

[Scribe]

9 minutes ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

A lot of ground has been covered in this article already with lots of varied and equally valid points.

 

Something I find very interesting is the change to heavy melee weapons. Essentially, a 10 man unit can have two power fists with no hit roll penalty. That's interesting ay?

 

Fist on the Champ, 2H Axe on the squad?

 

9 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

With that 4++ Aura I can't imagine ever playing against Chaos and not seeing Abbadon on the table. Was kinda hoping that Special Characters wouldn't be the major force multipliers that they were but I geuss that's out the window lol. At least I'm already used to seeing these buttholes in every single game already.

 

Dark Pact kinda bothers me as I feel it shoulda been a detachment ability and not the core army ability. What about the legions that don't really make dark pacts like Iron Warriors and Night Lords? Being renegades and veterans of the long war is thier common identity and constantly beseeching the chaos gods for power is the Word Bearers thing. They didn't even show the actual detachment rule either wich is pretty lame. But yeah even if they do like Seige detachment or Terror detachment it's still not gonna really feel like hardcore Iron Warriors or Night lords or renegades cuase they are all basically fanatics and zealots by defualt.

 

Too early to know for sure, but my immediate thought was 'why would I ever pass on Abaddon' and 'I guess I'll play Word Bearers this edition.'

[Urkh]

I think one thing to keep in mind with dark pact, is even if it only kills one extra marine per activation, if you are able to activate it 10 times in a turn between shooting and melee, that's all of a sudden the equivalent to an entire squad of marines. You may lose a few of your guys, but you deserve it, you filthy traitors. 

[lansalt]

2 hours ago, sitnam said:

Why does this discussion always ignore the fact that the units that carry around old style bolters get extra weapon options Intercessors don't get. 

The point is that bolters shouldn't be a tax or the worst option in any space marine unit. They're the iconic weapon of Astartes after all.

[Shadrach03]

2 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

 

The context was the CSM article.. I don't know if you're trying to relate that to the game in general, but yes I am fully aware there are more units with the mounted type than just bikers. However, as far as CSM is concerned bikers are the only CSM units Abby would affect... no? 

I suspect the lord discordant would fit the bill as well.

[jaxom]

13 minutes ago, lansalt said:

The point is that bolters shouldn't be a tax or the worst option in any space marine unit. They're the iconic weapon of Astartes after all.

Something had to be the worst Marine weapon. If bolters aren’t the worst option, then what should it be?

 

I think it’s okay if bolters are the worst Marine weapon if they’re not the worst standard infantry weapon.

[Khornestar]

36 minutes ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

A lot of ground has been covered in this article already with lots of varied and equally valid points.

 

Something I find very interesting is the change to heavy melee weapons. Essentially, a 10 man unit can have two power fists with no hit roll penalty. That's interesting ay?

Super cool, that. It was previously possible for a power fist champ and heavy chainaxe legionary, but now they share the same profile without the -1 to hit. 1 fewer attack on the champ, but I’ll make that trade. Also allows for cool modeling options.

 

I really like everything I’m seeing, other than boltguns. It is a bit disappointing to see them languishing like this. I had held off building some of my legionaries in case boltguns became good enough to make sacrificing the chainswords worth it, but they aren’t IMO.

 

Still, 2 heavy melee weapons and a melta gun + 2 chainswordsmen is gonna be something I’m likely to spam. Can swap the special to a heavy bolter, maybe, but those 2 heavy melee are gonna be in every squad bearing the glorious word.

 

Dark pact is awesome, I love it. Looking forward to using it with chosen (one hopes they keep 3 wounds and they have an icon) and terminators. Both combi and accursed weapons are exciting enough to warrant extra hits/auto-wounds and have a low likelihood of losing a single model.

 

Obliterators… that melta profile! I like it. Deep strike and nuke something hard, dark pact if I’m feeling cheeky.

 

Havoc autocannon looks solid, I dare say. Moreso for an actual unit of havocs, but nonetheless a nice looking profile.

 

Damn them for not showing the detachment. That was Weaksauce. There’s a month and change to go, let’s not be precious here. Also cuts the other way, though; won’t have to wait longer than that to find out.