Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus - Chaos Space Marines

[acrozatarim]

The main place I could see a potential use for bolter legionaries is as character bodyguards. If whatever the new MoP or sorcerer datasheets looks like makes us want to avoid melee with them, having them join a small unit of bolter marines gives them protective bodies who can contribute a little outside of close combat.

[Marshal Loss]

Really pleased with this (though I think not showing us the Slaves to Darkness detachment bonus is a bit of a silly decision).

• Dark Pacts suit me just fine. Reasonably powerful, works on melee and shooting, and the drawback isn't usually going to be enough to ruin the flavour. Hopefully they've seen sense and allowed units like Havocs to equip icons despite not coming with one in the kit (not that I'd bet on it). That being said, not sure how CSM have managed to hang around for 10,000 years when so many drop dead every time they beseech their eldritch masters.
• Legionaries look fine and I like the consolidation of weapons. The balefire tome being reduced to purely a shooting attack isn't the best, and while we've always leaned in the direction of melee, I'd have preferred some more incentives to stand back and shoot every now and again (beyond Dark Pacts).
• Abaddon looks appropriately powerful. The toughness disparity between him and Guilliman is a bit odd in a vacuum but no issues with it when the gameplay considerations are taken into account (so happy he can stroll around with a meaty blob of Terminators again).
• The updated Obliterator guns are great. Being able to deep strike down into melta range with focused malice will be a scary prospect. I'd have preferred less swingy shot numbers.
• 5/6 Stratagems from the detachment being usable for all with an added benefit for marked units is brilliant. But c'mon, show us how marks work...

Looks fun and characterful, and I'm encouraged to do a bit of an oldschool heavily corrupted Alpha Legion force to mark the new edition now that we've switched to the subfaction agnostic detachment system, which is not something I'd have considered in the past. I do have some concerns about 10th - haven't been paying enough attention to online dialogue to know if it's a popular opinion, but I'm beginning to think they didn't go far enough with the reset in some places, and if I had my way re-rolls would be rolled (heh) back to pre-8th edition levels - but overall still very keen for the new edition.

[Xenith]

The reduced T on abby compared to Roboute is probably because Abby can join a unit and be protected while Guilliman cannot.

[Emperor Ming]

2 hours ago, Xenith said:

The reduced T on abby compared to Roboute is probably because Abby can join a unit and be protected while Guilliman cannot.

Indeed, and lone operative can be circumvented, its not hard to get within 12

 

If Abby can hide in 10 terminators, Gman wouldn't even get to Abby before he got cut down

[acrozatarim]

I kinda assumed characters would need the same T as the unit they can join, for making damage allocation work, so Abaddon needs T5 so he can join Terminator squads.

 

I expect a terminator character won't be able to join regular marine squads, for example.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Emperor Ming said:

If Abby can hide in 10 terminators, Gman wouldn't even get to Abby before he got cut down

 

That true but if 9th ed points are anything to go by, that Brick will probably cost twice as much as Guilliman. It would make a very tasty target for Oath of Moment. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

4 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

That true but if 9th ed points are anything to go by, that Brick will probably cost twice as much as Guilliman. It would make a very tasty target for Oath of Moment. 

You have the Dark Obscuration strat though, which would make them not targetable outside of 12 inches if the unit has the Nurgle keyword, which they may just get having Abaddon in them.

[BluejayJunior]

16 hours ago, spessmarine said:

Yeah... That was less than stellar, feels odd for the half-and-half approach. These cards feeling cramped real fast

I don't really  mind and extra card that just has weapon profiles for common special/heavy weapons that can be taken by a variety of different squads. As long as it's just the one card, it won't add much extra to what you're carrying around normally. 

 

11 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Psychic tome become a weak shooting weapon, and don't enable smite. Maybe most non-hero level psyker units in 10th will worked in this way.

There is no Psychic phase now, so all damage dealing psychic powers are now just ranged attacks. From what they've shown, psychic powers are just part of the psyker's datasheet now. 

[grailkeeper]

23 hours ago, Redcomet said:

RG is a primarch. Abby is wannabe 

If you wanna be my Primarch, you gotta get with my Fiends.

 

Iskander Khayons first words to Ezekyle Abaddon (reputed). 

[jaxom]

8 hours ago, Vanger said:

Both Lethal Hits and Sustained Hits work on nat 6 to hits, as the name implies. So you can'r fish for 6s with VotLW.

 

My quick math says that Lethal Hits against anything you'd wound on 5+ or worse and Sustained hits against everything you wound on 4+ or better.

Sustained Hits...This one simply adds the listed number of extra hits when a Critical Hit is scored – that’s an unmodified Hit roll of 6.

And re-rolls aren't considered modifier. Your quick math is correct.

 

To complement the MEQ and GEQ math from earlier, for unit not on an objective:

• 5+ to wound, CCW with SH1 generates 2 extra wounds before saves (7.78 vs 9.72)
• 5+ to wound, CCW with LH generates 3 extra wounds before saves (7.78 vs 10.83)
• 5+ to wound, CS with SH1 generates 2 extra wounds before saves (10.37 vs 12.96)
• 5+ to wound, CS with LH generates 4 extra wounds before saves (10.37 vs 14.44)
• 6+ to wound, CCW with SH1 generates 1 extra wound before saves (3.89 vs 4.86)
• 6+ to wound, CCW with LH generates 4 extra wounds before saves (3.89 vs 7.92)
• 6+ to wound, CS with SH1 generates 1 extra wound before saves (5.19 vs 6.48)
• 6+ to wound, CS with LH generates 5 extra wounds before saves (5.19 vs 10.55)

[Rain]

7 hours ago, Marshal Loss said:

Really pleased with this (though I think not showing us the Slaves to Darkness detachment bonus is a bit of a silly decision).

• Dark Pacts suit me just fine. Reasonably powerful, works on melee and shooting, and the drawback isn't usually going to be enough to ruin the flavour. Hopefully they've seen sense and allowed units like Havocs to equip icons despite not coming with one in the kit (not that I'd bet on it). That being said, not sure how CSM have managed to hang around for 10,000 years when so many drop dead every time they beseech their eldritch masters.

Casualties in 40k are abstract. Maybe they just have a sudden lapse in sanity and run off rambling incoherently to be picked up and reeducated later. Maybe they are left catatonic for a while, and recover after the battle. Maybe they are sucked into a small warp rift created by the ritual, and popped back out in the future (or the past) and rejoin their warband, or start a new one.

 

Point being, trying to square game rules with in universe sense requires a little fuzzy logic and imagination at the best of times.

 

I hope the WE army rule is similar to Dark Pacts, but lets you choose extra movement as an option, representing the WE burning out their bodies trying to get to the enemy as fast as possible. Would keep WE on theme as CSM, while also differentiating their specific rules.

[Dr. Clock]

15 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Basic bolters game wide could use an improvement, 2 shots is nice, but most things will laugh at s4 ap0

I think it's too early to make this call. Gauss flayers didn't get the jump to 2 shots naturally, staying rapid fire 1. Gauss do get Lethal Hits which is spicy enough, but the two are very comparable.

 

The game needs a 'middle of the road' that doesn't start with everyone's save down by 1, or having any light infantry immediately bowled off objectives from 24" by a single similar opponent. Making a basic gun a bit more impactful is one thing when there isn't also a heavy / special in there, and we have to remember that in theory at least you only need half as many casualties before any unit starts taking Ld checks and may just 'turn off' at any later point despite still being on an objective. 

 

Among the competing factions, my guess is that the bolter will be better than about a third, and at the least comparable to 3/4 basic trooper weapons across all factions. Basically nobody is likely to have natural ap on their basic guns bar maybe Custodes and Scions (who will still be S3). Counting it up, maybe Custodes, T'au, Thousand Sons, and Leagues will have basic guns that are 'just better' than a bolter, and Ad Mech, Eldar and Scions will likely be sidegrades.

 

I'll also just point out that there are options for people to just avoid the 'basic line infantry' and go more movie marine by taking Chosen as their main line; I'd wager that their bolters / combi-weapons will be more better than the Legionaries and we know that there's no mandatory battleline anymore so we can all load up on blaster units if that's our preference. OC may suffer, but them's the breaks.  

 

Basically if we start the 'main/biggest/poster factions' at Ap-1, then 6+ saves do nothing most of the time, and we can all save some time by reducing all saves in the game by 1. If a unit has a feature like a save, that feature should be at least marginally relevant in most simple or like-for-like exchanges.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor. 

 

 

[Indy Techwisp]

14 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Psychic tome become a weak shooting weapon, and don't enable smite. Maybe most non-hero level psyker units in 10th will worked in this way.

 

I really hope this isn't indicative of how TSons Aspiring Sorcs will work, since they're also Squad level psykers.

A Psychic Gun is neat, but they can already have a gun and are much better suited to buffing their Rubrics.

[Shadrach03]

18 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I really hope this isn't indicative of how TSons Aspiring Sorcs will work, since they're also Squad level psykers.

A Psychic Gun is neat, but they can already have a gun and are much better suited to buffing their Rubrics.

My interpretation of this guy when he came out was as a regular legionary who acquired the tome and knife and is messing around with psychic powers granted by the artifacts and not inherent to himself.  This is just my headcannon though.

I would suspect that your squad sorcs and the grey knights, while they might feature their own psychic shooting profiles, will still feel markedly different from this here.

[jimbo1701]

Only thing I’m not a fan of this far is the widening gap between bolters and bolt rifles, the latter of which are just superior in every regard. I think both or neither (probably this given the aim of the edition) should have had ap0 rather than -1. 

[Shadrach03]

I have to agree there jimbo.  Bolt rifles do seem a bit too good and maybe should be ap0 with the overall drop to ap across the board.

 

As well, it would be nice if bolters and storm bolters had the assault keyword to help with squad mobility.
 

But we'll just have to see how points costs shake out and what other rules show up in the end before we can really tell how it all works together.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, jimbo1701 said:

Only thing I’m not a fan of this far is the widening gap between bolters and bolt rifles, the latter of which are just superior in every regard. I think both or neither (probably this given the aim of the edition) should have had ap0 rather than -1. 

 

1 hour ago, Shadrach03 said:

I have to agree there jimbo.  Bolt rifles do seem a bit too good and maybe should be ap0 with the overall drop to ap across the board.

 

As well, it would be nice if bolters and storm bolters had the assault keyword to help with squad mobility.
 

But we'll just have to see how points costs shake out and what other rules show up in the end before we can really tell how it all works together.

 

I agree that bolt rifles are better than bolters, but I think one needs to look at the squad overall (including points but we don't have any info in that regard yet). Tactical Squads and Legionnaires Squads supplement bolter fire with other options. I don't have time to run numbers right now, but I'm pretty sure a full Legionnaires Squad with a Heavy Bolter and Reaper Chain Cannon will out do 10 Intercessors trying to mulch GEQ. Similarly, the ability to take proper anti-vehicle weapons to round that out in a list. I'd want to crunch the numbers to see how it plays out against 3+ and 4+ save type units; I don't have a good sense of how that would play out with volume of fire with AP-1 compared to things like the Balefire Tome, Havoc Autocannon, and a Plasmagun in a 10 man squad while the rest have bolters.

[Marshal Loss]

5 hours ago, Rain said:

Point being, trying to square game rules with in universe sense requires a little fuzzy logic and imagination at the best of times.

 

I don't disagree, but my comment was humorous in nature.
 

56 minutes ago, jaxom said:

 

 

I agree that bolt rifles are better than bolters, but I think one needs to look at the squad overall (including points but we don't have any info in that regard yet). Tactical Squads and Legionnaires Squads supplement bolter fire with other options.

 

This is true, and maybe when we get the full picture things will be different, but given the power in the lore/iconic status of the humble boltgun, I'd have preferred if its main tactical perk wasn't "can be taken alongside better guns". It's exacerbated a little in this context by Astartes Chainswords having kept their AP1.

[sitnam]

3 hours ago, jimbo1701 said:

Only thing I’m not a fan of this far is the widening gap between bolters and bolt rifles, the latter of which are just superior in every regard. I think both or neither (probably this given the aim of the edition) should have had ap0 rather than -1. 

If bolt rifles has ap0, wouldn't ever be worthwhile to take Intercessors over a tactical Marines? I really don't think Intercessors could compete with the special and heavy weapon options Tactical squads have

[Lemondish]

4 minutes ago, sitnam said:

If bolt rifles has ap0, wouldn't ever be worthwhile to take Intercessors over a tactical Marines? I really don't think Intercessors could compete with the special and heavy weapon options Tactical squads have

Strictly speaking, the difference between intercessors and tactical squads isn't very relevant for this thread, but there are definitely significantly more knobs to tune between units in 10th edition than just their offensive output. They could have double the OC, or a special ability that makes them more mobile or more effective in different parts of the game.

[Cryptix]

Have we actually *seen* the tactical marine or intercessors datasheet? Every unit seems to have an ability, and troops especially usually have something related to objectives, so weapons are not the end all be all.

[sitnam]

5 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Strictly speaking, the difference between intercessors and tactical squads isn't very relevant for this thread, but there are definitely significantly more knobs to tune between units in 10th edition than just their offensive output. They could have double the OC, or a special ability that makes them more mobile or more effective in different parts of the game.

That's very true in regards to the relevant units, but then we aren't really accomplishing the power fantasy of bolt rifles.  Much of this thread has been complaining about the power fantasy of bolters, so it seems strange to take away from their upgraded cousins

[Lemondish]

14 minutes ago, sitnam said:

That's very true in regards to the relevant units, but then we aren't really accomplishing the power fantasy of bolt rifles.  Much of this thread has been complaining about the power fantasy of bolters, so it seems strange to take away from their upgraded cousins

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating for nerfing bolt rifles just because the heretics and squatties have worse versions. I just completely agree that there's a balance consideration to be made from a gameplay perspective that can't always be made to service our lore-based expectations. That balance consideration also needs to walk a fine line for units that are similar but not identical. However, I also believe that there's more to the game than simply the killing power of a rote infantry weapon, even if that weapon is the holy bolter. The more effective you make the most ubiquitous weapon on 40K tables, the more the game would devolve into 9th edition's lethality problem all over again, which in turn would lead once more to band-aid solutions for survivability...and so the arms race continues.

 

So yeah, it sucks the power fantasy of bolt guns isn't matching expectations, but we really can't be getting anywhere close to the way these forces behave in the lore and have it actually be workable on a tabletop.

[Schlitzaf]

6 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

I think it's too early to make this call. Gauss flayers didn't get the jump to 2 shots naturally, staying rapid fire 1. Gauss do get Lethal Hits which is spicy enough, but the two are very comparable.

 

The game needs a 'middle of the road' that doesn't start with everyone's save down by 1, or having any light infantry immediately bowled off objectives from 24" by a single similar opponent. Making a basic gun a bit more impactful is one thing when there isn't also a heavy / special in there, and we have to remember that in theory at least you only need half as many casualties before any unit starts taking Ld checks and may just 'turn off' at any later point despite still being on an objective. 

 

Among the competing factions, my guess is that the bolter will be better than about a third, and at the least comparable to 3/4 basic trooper weapons across all factions. Basically nobody is likely to have natural ap on their basic guns bar maybe Custodes and Scions (who will still be S3). Counting it up, maybe Custodes, T'au, Thousand Sons, and Leagues will have basic guns that are 'just better' than a bolter, and Ad Mech, Eldar and Scions will likely be sidegrades.

 

I'll also just point out that there are options for people to just avoid the 'basic line infantry' and go more movie marine by taking Chosen as their main line; I'd wager that their bolters / combi-weapons will be more better than the Legionaries and we know that there's no mandatory battleline anymore so we can all load up on blaster units if that's our preference. OC may suffer, but them's the breaks.  

 

Basically if we start the 'main/biggest/poster factions' at Ap-1, then 6+ saves do nothing most of the time, and we can all save some time by reducing all saves in the game by 1. If a unit has a feature like a save, that feature should be at least marginally relevant in most simple or like-for-like exchanges.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor. 

 

 

You know what EXACTLY happened when doctrines got introduced? (To be clear agreeing with your post). And why through a culmination of events, why armor of contempt happened?

[Khornestar]

1 hour ago, Lemondish said:

squatties