Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus - Chaos Space Marines

[Tokugawa]

Fact: chaos space marines received less love from GW than loyalist space marines.

 

I assume everyone in this discussion know this case. So needn't to ask "Why CSM have basic wargears being equivalent of old born SM, not primaris SM?"

Edited May 6, 2023 by Tokugawa

[Lemondish]

Everyone receives less love than loyalists.

 

And while I'm sure it is very unpopular here, I feel like parity is not a desirable outcome.

[Rain]

25 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Everyone receives less love than loyalists.

 

And while I'm sure it is very unpopular here, I feel like parity is not a desirable outcome.

Indeed. I, for one, am happy that CSM and their offshoots have received less attention; lest the monkey’s paw give us primaris vehicles. A curse that I would not wish on my worst enemy, or even the Emperor’s Children 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Rain

[jaxom]

24 minutes ago, Rain said:

Indeed. I, for one, am happy that CSM and their offshoots have received less attention; lest the monkey’s paw give us primaris vehicles. A curse that I would not wish on my worst enemy, or even the Emperor’s Children 

My conspiracy theory was that the failure of the more radical Primaris designs led to GW abandoning their plans for an equivalent Chaos Marine update. Hear me out. One of the major balance and development issues for a long time was the shared equipment between the two factions. The Primaris revamp gave GW an excuse to separate the two with all new equipment for loyalists, giving them more of a future-tech in a fallen age vibe. Meanwhile, Heretics would have gotten more warped (pun intentional) equipment, leaning into the weirdness that is available from Warp Pacts, Daemon Forges and Dark Mechanicum. Hence the Greater Possessed, Master of Possession, Venom Crawler and Obliterators in Shadowspear; the latter of which still haven't gotten solo kits. Vashtorr may well have been intended to be released earlier. However, GW had to backpedal so Chaos Marines didn't get what was planned and GW had to rethink their approach. 

[Rain]

@jaxom Possible, but GW had been leaning into warp corruption for CSM long before primaris for the loyalists. The plastic Hellbrute was 5th edition, and has a very similar design language to the oblits you are referring to, with a melding of flesh and metal. I hate that model, hence I have a Contemptor instead.

 

Also, the dinobots and Helldrake all have a very different feel from the Defiler, which was more gothic and abstract, whereas the latter are literally demon-robot dinosaurs (maybe less so for the shooty one), and a demon-robot dragon. It was a very on the nose period for CSM visual design.

 

That said, the more recent kits have been less corrupted in general, which I quite like, and I wouldn’t be shocked if this was part of a redirect due to the (hopefully) negative reaction to some of the more abominable primaris sculpts. Especially as GW seems to now be making a point of not squatting legacy loyalist vehicles as well.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Rain

[Doctor Perils]

The original Helbrute was in the 6th Ed starter box, the multipart kit came later

[HereticalHannibal]

I’m curious what peoples thoughts are on how effective Dark Pacts will be without being too damaging to one’s own units.

My thoughts are that a large cultist mob (bigger the better) could really benefit from this and a small high-wound unit (like terminators) might get a big benefit as well. But everything else seems like it would be too risky to do regularly?

[Aarik]

12 minutes ago, HereticalHannibal said:

I’m curious what peoples thoughts are on how effective Dark Pacts will be without being too damaging to one’s own units.

My thoughts are that a large cultist mob (bigger the better) could really benefit from this and a small high-wound unit (like terminators) might get a big benefit as well. But everything else seems like it would be too risky to do regularly?

 

Someone did the math earlier in the thread about the chance of failing with the re-roll from an Icon, and it was very small.  So, I think that if Icons are relatively cheap, that will be the primary way to mitigate the damage.  But the question will be the points cost, and if any additional units will be able to take them in 10th.  Don't quote me, but I think that terminators, possessed, and havocs, (and maybe chosen?) don't have an icon in their kit, so the risk is that GW's "what's in the box" limitation will keep those units from being able to take one.

[Karhedron]

I think that Dark Pact will be popular on squads with icons where the risk is minimal, cultists which are pretty disposable and Characters with high leadership.

 

I think that using it on more valuable squads without icons will be rarer and only worthwhile when you really need to kill a target and decide that the gamble is worth the risk. 

[tzeentch9]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

I think that Dark Pact will be popular on squads with icons where the risk is minimal, cultists which are pretty disposable and Characters with high leadership.

 

I think that using it on more valuable squads without icons will be rarer and only worthwhile when you really need to kill a target and decide that the gamble is worth the risk. 

Nah, just do it all the time on all the units

[Lemondish]

3 hours ago, Aarik said:

 

Someone did the math earlier in the thread about the chance of failing with the re-roll from an Icon, and it was very small.  So, I think that if Icons are relatively cheap, that will be the primary way to mitigate the damage.  But the question will be the points cost, and if any additional units will be able to take them in 10th.  Don't quote me, but I think that terminators, possessed, and havocs, (and maybe chosen?) don't have an icon in their kit, so the risk is that GW's "what's in the box" limitation will keep those units from being able to take one.

There's also a chance that Chaos Terminators get an additional ability that interacts with Dark Pacts similar to how Loyalist ones have an ability that interacts with Oath.

 

I wonder if it'll just be "you get both bonuses", making the choice tastier.

 

32 minutes ago, tzeentch9 said:

Nah, just do it all the time on all the units

 

My man. Why even sell your soul to the chaos gods if the cost is too much to bear?!

[bigtrouble]

35 minutes ago, tzeentch9 said:

Nah, just do it all the time on all the units

This is the way.

[Khornestar]

35 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

There's also a chance that Chaos Terminators get an additional ability that interacts with Dark Pacts similar to how Loyalist ones have an ability that interacts with Oath.

Oh yeaaaah! The every unit has special rules thing is still taking a while to sink in. They’re totally gonna have something worthwhile.

[L30n1d4s]

I'm a little confused... what ability do Loyalist Terminators get that interacts with Oath of Moment?

[Volgon]

1 hour ago, L30n1d4s said:

I'm a little confused... what ability do Loyalist Terminators get that interacts with Oath of Moment?

 

Their Fury of the First ability gives them +1 to hit against targets marked by Oath of Moment.

[Dr. Clock]

2 hours ago, Khornestar said:

They’re totally gonna have something worthwhile.

I'm guessing they could get BOTH lethal hits and sustained hits when using Dark Pacts? Alternatively they could just say Terminators don't take Ld checks for using Pacts, or 'may use them a second time' if they want to make sure that higher rewards come with higher risks. Fun times to come!

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Assuming Dark Apostles keep their ability to grant higher leadership either to a unit they joined on in an aura, they'll be worth their weight in gold for units that don't have access to Icons.

[HereticalHannibal]

1 hour ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

Assuming Dark Apostles keep their ability to grant higher leadership either to a unit they joined on in an aura, they'll be worth their weight in gold for units that don't have access to Icons.

oh that’s a good point about the Dark Apostle. I’m really curious to see how they transition the psychic/prayer abilities into something that is “always on” like an aura without being overpowering. 

[Doctor Perils]

15 hours ago, HereticalHannibal said:

But everything else seems like it would be too risky to do regularly?

 

I think this ability will really come into its own when there's a unit you absolutely _have_ to murdernate, which is cool game design imo. High risk, high reward is chaos's shtick and this turns it up to 11.

 

The one interaction that's disappointing to me is Abaddon's gain a CP being gated behind another arbitrary roll _after_ an already risky leadership roll. It feels redundant and slowing the game down - I think it would be better game design if they simply said that on a 7+ result on his leadership roll he also gets the CP

[Khornestar]

9 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

Assuming Dark Apostles keep their ability to grant higher leadership either to a unit they joined on in an aura, they'll be worth their weight in gold for units that don't have access to Icons.

Perhaps the cultist HQ squad will be useful this time around as well. 

[ZeroWolf]

Worth mentioning here, but in the preview article for this coming week, we'll be getting a look at the Chaos Demons 10th edition rules.

[danodan123]

Could be a nice opportunity to see how CSM and daemons work together, but om not expecting much of that till a codex drops.

[ApulianAbaddon]

I bet Chosen will have Dark Pact activated automatically with no mortal wounds

[Indy Techwisp]

3 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

Worth mentioning here, but in the preview article for this coming week, we'll be getting a look at the Chaos Demons 10th edition rules.

 

Daemons being next probably means we won't get another Chaos faction next week besides them?
Otherwise we'll run out.

[Prot]

On the surface I’m not too happy about this ability.  I could be wrong but it feels like that ability only happens about 1 in 6 attacks, correct?  Yet the mortal wounds on a non icon unit will probably happen much more often. 
 

why do we have to plan to execute our ‘edge’? The drawback on a 1 in 6 ability seems silly. 
 

Some units are possibly too important to use this… like Oblits or havocs where there isn’t much for ablative wounds or access to an icon. What about vehicles….? Dreadnougnts especially will see no benefit, only the possible damage. 
 

As someone who used to play Ultras for a long time the single use version of Oath was very powerful. When they announced the 10 th edition version of it, I thought it was a type O and wasn’t convinced otherwise until we saw GMan makes it twice a turn.
 

if you gave me the option with CSM , I’d much rather have the oaths ability over the CSM one. 
 

I’m open to being completely wrong about this. All I have to go on is my experience using the UM relic (in pretty much every game I played with UM, it was that good) and the experience of exploding 6’s with CSM in 9th which had no harmful drawbacks and frankly didn’t need it. I hope I’m very wrong in this. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Prot