Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: Death Guard

[Rain]

At least it follows the lore. Dark Angels have long been famed for their resilience. And their steadfastness. They are the best at attacking, but also defending, and they are ruthless but also really tactical.
 

They have all of this super secret tech, and were the Emperor’s real executioners, and their flaw is that they are the loyalest loyaists, and that people are jealous of how cool they are.

 

The foregoing is an accurate description of both the majority of custom chapters written by 11 year olds, and actual Dark Angels Heresy canon 

[Special Officer Doofy]

37 minutes ago, Rain said:

Death Guard have long been famed for their resilience

 

Fixed that for you! 

[spessmarine]

39 minutes ago, Rain said:

At least it follows the lore. Dark Angels have long been famed for their resilience. And their steadfastness. They are the best at attacking, but also defending, and they are ruthless but also really tactical.
 

They have all of this super secret tech, and were the Emperor’s real executioners, and their flaw is that they are the loyalest loyaists, and that people are jealous of how cool they are.

 

The foregoing is an accurate description of both the majority of custom chapters written by 11 year olds, and actual Dark Angels Heresy canon 

 

First in all things

[jaxom]

Figure I may as well jot this down as I go through the Index again. 

 

Leaders

 

DG Daemon Prince has the FnP aura, and can walk up the board with your 5" movement units. I think he's kind of clutch if you don't want to rely on Rhinos for movement and protection while heading to objectives. With a 7" move, you can move him around your Plague Marine blob to be a threat where you think you're going to end up in a scrum. He'll eat light infantry in melee with Sweep (the complete lack of AP makes it worse than the Strike against Marines), but the Strike is more of an anti-Marine option than an anti-Tank. He's killing about 3 marines or 2 terminators per activation. A major downside is he's a psyker in a world with Anti-Psyker+Devastating Wound weapons and the only thing he gets out of it is the aura.

 

DG DP w/Wings has 11" movement, making him the second fastest DG unit (Rhino wins with 12"). You can statistically generate 1 or 2 mortal wounds on charge and you can force a Battleshock test on a unit you charge (Warp Horror). A major downside is he's a psyker in a world with Anti-Psyker+Devastating Wound weapons and the only thing he gets out of it is Warp Horror Unless he's dirt cheap, meh. I'd rather use those points on Bloat-Drones if I want something that can Fly. They're not as tough as the DP, but they are more versatile. 

 

Typhus is odd. He has a 5" move, but can only Lead 4" move units. I would rather have rerolling something for Terminators than the -1 to hit in melee. Putting him with the Poxwalkers may make for a good Strategic Reserves distraction. They can walk on from the board edge and start trying wrap units, while he uses Eater Plague to bring back Poxwalkers.

 

DG Chaos Lord is generically good by giving reroll 1s to hit. He's the only reroll buff Leader who can join Plague Marines. Depending on points, if you were thinking of taking a Biologus Putrifier, take this guy instead. He's one of the killier character options (the most damaging that can join Plague Marines), but he's not going to be outperforming the melee characters of other Marine lists. Dessicating Conduit just seems like lazy rules writing to me; but a 4+ to do some mortal wounds in melee isn't too bad.

 

DG CL with Terminator Armor is the terminator version of the above. I'd rather have a LoV for Blightlords. The LoC may not be as good, depending on points.

 

LoV is what we saw earlier. Goes well with Blightlords and having PBC and Defilers on the board.

 

LoC has the same stat line as the DG CL in TA and can join the same units. If you have one from Dark Imperium and no Terminators, you're out of luck. Put him with Deathshroud just in case they ever get -1 to hit in melee, otherwise it's the same as the DG CL in TA has better attacks if you go with a Plaguefist and Plague-encrusted exalted weapon.

 

DG Sorcerer in Terminator Armor is a great option for leading Terminators. Bringing 2 damage to 1 and 3 damage to 2 can go a long way to keeping those guys alive. The once per game ability to up the Force Sword to Str8 and d3+2 Damage is really good when paired with the Ferric Blight stratagem to get the AP to -2; with Nurgle's Gift bring Toughness down, those attacks are a threat to T5 Terminators. Unfortunately you can't pair him with a Tallyman so you're stuck hitting on 3s. I don't think it's worth using your one Enhancement to make it 6 attacks at Str10.

 

Malignant Plaguecaster's Gift of Contagion is an interesting insight into how I think the Rules Team intend for DG to function. You pick a melee threat and it gets -1 to Wound rolls. I think the idea is that the DG are not outright dangerous, but can leverage things like this to make their opponent less dangerous and by comparison the DG become more dangerous. I really wish these guys had Lone Operative instead of Leader because they debuff an enemy unit rather than buff their own. I guess put them in a min-size squad in the center of your other Plague Marine units.

 

Virion Leaders (can be in a unit with one other Leader)

 

Noxious Blightbringer is the "Aggressive" Melee character. Gives rerolls to Advance (useful if you are footslogging) and Charge, and -2 to Battleshock (and Ld) tests to units within Contagion range. Get him near the enemy, then Danger Close with some PBC or charge in with a DP w/Wings for Warp Horror. He's pillowfisted, so don't expect him to actually do damage in combat. I don't think he's worth pairing with any of the other Leaders as all the other combinations synergize better.

 

Foul Blightspawn is the actually good Melee character if you don't want to rely on charge rolls because he gives Fights First. Pair him with a DG CL and as many bubotic+heavy bubotic weapons and torrent weapons for a very threatening unit. Pair him with a Plague Surgeon for a harder to kill than you'd expect unit. He is also pillowfisted, but that's why you stand there within Contagion range, mag-dumping until they charge you. A very good option for a Rhino rush squad.

 

Biologis Putrifier needs to be dirt cheap to be worth taking. Plague Marines are not going to have quite the volume of fire to make 5+ Lethal Hits worth it if one has equipped members with close combat options. And I think getting those bubotic and heavy bubotic weapons is quite worthwhile for an army that does most of its best work within 12" of the enemy. He can use the Grenade strat once per battle for free and even if it was already used that turn... whoopee 

 

Tallyman adds 1 to attack rolls and that would be great on its own, but he can also generate CP. Unless he's stupidly overcosting, this is the generically useful character of your dreams. If you have a Plague Marine unit with plasma, melta, blight launcher () instead of the Torrent options, he's a good fit.

 

Plague Surgeon is just damn useful... maybe. He needs to be paired with another character to get the most out of him, because he can't heal Plague Marines, just other infantry characters. Note that the character doesn't have to be in the unit with him; a LoV (with Blightlords) within 3" can benefit. I don't have a handle on how prevalent Precision will be to get an idea of how useful this could be; and the only non-Leader characters aren't Infantry. Otherwise he's res-ing  a Plague Marine a turn; cool for the right points cost.

 

To be continued... I need sleep 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tokugawa]

Reroll all hits is still better than reroll 1 when already hit on 2+. You can reroll 2-5 for max lethal hits.

[Tokugawa]

2 hours ago, jaxom said:

 

 

Biologis Putrifier needs to be dirt cheap to be worth taking. Plague Marines are not going to have quite the volume of fire to make 5+ Lethal Hits worth it if one has equipped members with close combat options. And I think getting those bubotic and heavy bubotic weapons is quite worthwhile for an army that does most of its best work within 12" of the enemy. He can use the Grenade strat once per battle for free and even if it was already used that turn... whoopee 

 

Tallyman adds 1 to attack rolls and that would be great on its own, but he can also generate CP. Unless he's stupidly overcosting, this is the generically useful character of your dreams. If you have a Plague Marine unit with plasma, melta, blight launcher () instead of the Torrent options, he's a good fit.

 

Plague Surgeon is just damn useful... maybe. He needs to be paired with another character to get the most out of him, because he can't heal Plague Marines, just other infantry characters. Note that the character doesn't have to be in the unit with him; a LoV (with Blightlords) within 3" can benefit. I don't have a handle on how prevalent Precision will be to get an idea of how useful this could be; and the only non-Leader characters aren't Infantry. Otherwise he's res-ing  a Plague Marine a turn; cool for the right points cost.

 

To be continued... I need sleep 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Biologus give lethal to both ranged and melee attacks, and make all of them trigger auto-wound on 5+. Why isn't him good?

 

If plaguemarine cost 20pts, I can't see Surgeon cost less than 50pts. So he need to revive 3 plaguemarines to earn cost back and generate values. And most of time he won't revive anything on turn 1, so he need to survive to turn 4…I prefer to bring just several more plaguemarines instead. 

[Balerion84]

so, the way I see it, to play DG we are going to add 500pts of demons, 1 big knight or 3 armigers, shake it well. and hope for the best? :D 

 

Anything else I'm missing? 

[Tokugawa]

55 minutes ago, Balerion84 said:

so, the way I see it, to play DG we are going to add 500pts of demons, 1 big knight or 3 armigers, shake it well. and hope for the best? :D 

 

Anything else I'm missing? 

Honestly say, Nurgle daemons(because we can only take pure Nurgle as ally) have similar problems(slow, can't deal with tank effectively) with us but more severely(no shooting). With their shadow mechanics completely unavailable they can't provide much help to our urgent need.

 

On the other hand, even with 0 army rules or stratagem support, this thing still has some potential to compete with DG vehicles in anti-tank slots…

[Balerion84]

I was leaning towards adding a Tyrant but those stalkers look interesting too.

[jaxom]

6 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Biologus give lethal to both ranged and melee attacks, and make all of them trigger auto-wound on 5+. Why isn't him good?

 

If plaguemarine cost 20pts, I can't see Surgeon cost less than 50pts. So he need to revive 3 plaguemarines to earn cost back and generate values. And most of time he won't revive anything on turn 1, so he need to survive to turn 4…I prefer to bring just several more plaguemarines instead. 

Everything except plasma and melta already has Lethal Hits, and I think the concrete benefit other characters offer is better than the possibility of getting a few more automatic wounds. Biologus is not bad (especially if he's pointed right), just no where near as attractive as the other characters. The Plague Surgeon, I think, definitely needs to healing characters to meet such an expected price; we just don't know how common Precision will be. The Marine Index alone makes me think it will be a concern.

[KingYertle]

The Biologus providing Crits on 5+ is actually good.  The issue is, unless we burn CP, our weapons are not that exciting even if they auto-wound on 5+.  Plus he went from providing MWs on 6s to autowounds of 5+s, its a significant downgrade even if its "good" by 10th standards.  If he provided Devastating Wounds to all Lethal Wound weapons we would be singing his praises.

[Tokugawa]

On 6/14/2023 at 5:06 PM, Tokugawa said:

Honestly say, Nurgle daemons(because we can only take pure Nurgle as ally) have similar problems(slow, can't deal with tank effectively) with us but more severely(no shooting). With their shadow mechanics completely unavailable they can't provide much help to our urgent need.

 

On the other hand, even with 0 army rules or stratagem support, this thing still has some potential to compete with DG vehicles in anti-tank slots…

135pts. Exactly same as FBD and 20pts higher than MBH.

 

All these three need to go close to make their weapons work. This puppy moves faster(since 10th fly vehicle/monster are slower than 9th). Similar defensive profile but slightly tougher. Punch much much harder in melee.

 

hmmm....

[jaxom]

4 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

135pts. Exactly same as FBD and 20pts higher than MBH.

 

All these three need to go close to make their weapons work. This puppy moves faster(since 10th fly vehicle/monster are slower than 9th). Similar defensive profile but slightly tougher. Punch much much harder in melee.

 

I think I put it elsewhere, but yeah Stalkers and Huntsmen are really good options to bring in to a DG list.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Chaos knights seem pretty good this edition, as they have gotten tougher and either stayed about the same in points or gotten cheaper.

 

As for which wardog is the best to match up with death guard, probably the huntsman as it is the best against other vehicles, which I understand is something death guard can struggle with.  If the idea is to have something faster to knock opponent's off of objectives, then probably the stalker (for objectives that are sparsely held) or the karnivore (for objectives that aren't).

 

9e edition I didn't think much of the karnivore, but with reroll charge distances and + 50% more attacks in melee than other wardogs I think they have their place.  Not sure if they should be the most expensive wardog, but previously having a gun bigger than a stubber was better than the flexibility of having 2 already flexible melee weapons.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Special Officer Doofy]

On 5/17/2023 at 9:46 AM, Mogger351 said:

Can I suggest putting a pin it for now? literally every faction preview people playing that faction have come out with sky is falling posts. If the sky is falling for all armies it means there's good odds of parity.

 

So can I take the pin out yet that multiple reports are showing DG as the worst faction with a less than 30% win rate? The preview showed what was in the index... Garbage.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[WrathOfTheLion]

Is there a point to resurrecting two month old statements to be internet right? I know people have mentioned saving certain things so they can come back later, but I'd never seen anyone actually do it.

[Special Officer Doofy]

8 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Is there a point to resurrecting two month old statements to be internet right? I know people have mentioned saving certain things so they can come back later, but I'd never seen anyone actually do it.

 

I mean the DG forum in general hasn't even had a post in over a week, should we not post? Wasn't saving anything. I was told I was wrong and that DG were going to be fine and to wait until the index comes out and get the full picture. I waited. We got the index, got the results, and got the full picture now. Is the conversation not allowed to continue? Is two months the cutoff?

[WrathOfTheLion]

40 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

I mean the DG forum in general hasn't even had a post in over a week, should we not post? Wasn't saving anything. I was told I was wrong and that DG were going to be fine and to wait until the index comes out and get the full picture. I waited. We got the index, got the results, and got the full picture now. Is the conversation not allowed to continue? Is two months the cutoff?

Nope, there's no rule there of course, otherwise I wouldn't have just said something in the thread. I just personally think it's pointless.

 

As far as the index, yes we've waited and it's not well constructed and performs poorly. But nobody is going to talk about it unless there's something of value to say about it (details, etc.), which is why the thread isn't exactly banging.

[Special Officer Doofy]

46 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Nope, there's no rule there of course, otherwise I wouldn't have just said something in the thread. I just personally think it's pointless.

 

As far as the index, yes we've waited and it's not well constructed and performs poorly. But nobody is going to talk about it unless there's something of value to say about it (details, etc.), which is why the thread isn't exactly banging.

 

I mean the thread was about the faction focus. Most of the focuses were spot on for how the armies will be performing, but alot of people were blinded to them.

 

An edition where vehicles get buffed and infantry doesn't go over S9 has knights performing well? *gasp*

 

An edition with "less lethality" but gives various dice rolls multiple hits, auto wounds and mortal wounds has the faction that can manipulate dice rolls performing well? I mean if you're a Vegas man you might as well always bet on Eldar being strong, you'll win alot more than you'll lose.

 

An edition that raises durability across the board but has a faction that lost durability, lethality AND movement is performing bad? Crazy.

 

The faction focus told us alot. Why didn't they show Mortarion like the other astartes showed their primarchs? Because he got hammered and lost movement, wounds, attacks, strength, damage, durability and utility. Nothing to get excited about.

 

You can think a post is pointless, and they all are, it's a forum for a toy soldier hobby. I'll edit the second part out of the first post if you think that part is a bit much.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[WrathOfTheLion]

22 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

I mean the thread was about the faction focus. Most of the focuses were spot on for how the armies will be performing, but alot of people were blinded to them.

 

An edition where vehicles get buffed and infantry doesn't go over S9 has knights performing well? *gasp*

 

An edition with "less lethality" but gives various dice rolls multiple hits, auto wounds and mortal wounds has the faction that can manipulate dice rolls performing well? I mean if you're a Vegas man you might as well always bet on Eldar being strong, you'll win alot more than you'll lose.

 

An edition that raises durability across the board but has a faction that lost durability, lethality AND movement is performing bad? Crazy.

 

The faction focus told us alot. Why didn't they show Mortarion like the other astartes showed their primarchs? Because he got hammered and lost movement, wounds, attacks, strength, damage, durability and utility. Nothing to get excited about.

 

You can think a post is pointless, and they all are, it's a forum for a toy soldier hobby. I'll edit the second part out of the first post if you think that part is a bit much.

You don't have to do anything, what I think doesn't mean you have to listen to me.

 

My point was that I'm acting as a frater speaking my mind about it, not from any position of authority, and that if anything wrong was done, I wouldn't be addressing it by speaking my mind about it :)

 

Not really related to anything here, but I also am but the technician, that is outside my purview either way. The only thing I can do for real rule breaking is report it, as I purposefully intend to keep that separation there.

 

...

 

Back on topic, there are semblances of things in the index, such as the Daemon prince, to start trying to make something. I don't think there's anything to coalesce into a reliable build, they'll need to revisit the faction.

Edited July 19, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Special Officer Doofy]

41 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Not really related to anything here, but I also am but the technician, that is outside my purview either way. The only thing I can do for real rule breaking is report it, as I purposefully intend to keep that separation there.

 

Yeah I didn't mean it from a point of authority, just as a fellow frater.

 

41 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Back on topic, there are semblances of things in the index, such as the Daemon prince, to start trying to make something. I don't think there's anything to coalesce into a reliable build, they'll need to revisit the faction.

 

The Daemon Prince probably made it out the best of the index. But the faction revisit won't even happen for over a year because apperently a billion dollar company can't make more than 9 codexes in 12 months haha.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I've only ever heard two reasons against FnP, and they both stink worse than death guard in 10th.

 

1) The first reason against it is that "faction wide 5+++ is broken". Bloodofkittens had Deathguard at a 33% win rate by the end of 8th edition, only ahead of mono inquisition at 28% (which I didn't even know was a thing). They were not good. There is a thread on here from years back that shows it. 5+++ did not help DG escape from having over costed wargear and bodies, daemon engines that don't get the factions ability and only hit on 4's, a terrible faction ability in general and slow movement in a game of capturing objectives. You can have 5+++ and still not be overpowered. Evidence? 8th edition death guard not being over powered.

 

2) The second reason is "it slows the game down". Well then why did they hand FnP out to allll these other faction's then if it "slows the game down". It's a game of rolling dice. If the only thing that prevents you from playing a 2k game is ugh my opponent gets an extra roll, you should probably play a lower point (power level? Power level let's be honest) game. And also avoid playing against or with marines (the most popular faction), because they can reroll damn near everything offensively and also can have a faction wide FnP, ironically on even much better battle line troop like a T6 3W Gravis heavy intercessor that has better guns for only a few points more than plaguemarines. Evidence? 10th edition Marines with the Templar subfaction bonus has far more rerolling and marines are the most popular faction. 

 

Both of those arguments against DR coming back and being 5+++ are so weak but I see people voice them over and over.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy
Spelling

[WrathOfTheLion]

The second was the reason I expected, but that obviously falls flat once it's handed to other factions.

 

I suspect what happened is some factions (Death Guard, AdMech) were amongst the first penned, and that they changed philosophies partway through.

[Special Officer Doofy]

That would make the most sense, and would follow their normal codex creep patterns.

[WrathOfTheLion]

They did mention DG (along with others) in the metawatch article as ones to address, so I'm interested to see what they do when the next balance pass comes through.

 

We do know they're willing to pull the lever on faction abilities, although nothing drastically altering them yet.