Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: Death Guard

[Sea Creature]

I liked the -1 damage. Some people can seemingly roll an inordinate amount of 5+ and it can skew a game.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I would've taken an addition pip of toughness and wound to represent DR. But that's not what we got.

[Special Officer Doofy]

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I would've taken an addition pip of toughness and wound to represent DR. But that's not what we got.

 

Anything would have been better than the nothing we got! (And before Tzeentch tries to argue, our terminators gaining one toughness was to match all other faction's terminators and Gravis units gaining a toughness as well)

Edited May 20, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[Captain Idaho]

I've got a good friend into Death Guard and he's on the forums, Facebook groups and all the comments sections etc...

 

He and much of the community as he's seen it are unhappy with this faction focus.

 

Reading it myself, I have to agree. These are the main rules for a faction they're showcasing to build suspense. So these represent the cream of the crop in flavour at least, if not power. It doesn't have that.

 

What there is, is counter intuitive. "Sticky objectives" but in an army that is supposed to be tough and difficult to remove off objectives as a theme so it detracts from it because they don't operate together. Lots of lethal hits but you're removing a point of toughness from the enemy, so if one rule kicks in the other doesn't matter. Objectives that remove toughness of nearby troops, who claim the objecrive and then the ability disappears anyway.

 

For my friend and all the Death Guard fans... I'm gutted for you. I want a balanced game and to be able to play against flavourful opponents and everyone enjoy themselves, so the fact you guys aren't happy isn't good. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Captain Idaho
Words, words for the word God.

[Sea Creature]

I think it is one of the worst faction focuses I’ve seen.

[Cleon]

If the objective contamination stayed, even if the other side was scoring the objective, that would be quite cool - grab an objective with something relatively quick like a drone or a deep striking Blightlords and when they are forced off it/killed/move on then enemy troops holding it are -1 Toughness when you are retaking it.

[MithrilForge]

I guess this is GW's way of saying You need to start a new army and spend more money on models, since a lot of DG players don't need many new models this is a very sneaky way to get you to rage quit your army 

 

M.  

[jaxom]

On 5/20/2023 at 5:49 AM, Captain Idaho said:

I've got a good friend into Death Guard and he's on the forums, Facebook groups and all the comments sections etc...

 

He and much of the community as he's seen it are unhappy with this faction focus.

 

Reading it myself, I have to agree. These are the main rules for a faction they're showcasing to build suspense. So these represent the cream of the crop in flavour at least, if not power. It doesn't have that.

 

What there is, is counter intuitive. "Sticky objectives" but in an army that is supposed to be tough and difficult to remove off objectives as a theme so it detracts from it because they don't operate together. Lots of lethal hits but you're removing a point of toughness from the enemy, so if one rule kicks in the other doesn't matter. Objectives that remove toughness of nearby troops, who claim the objecrive and then the ability disappears anyway.

 

For my friend and all the Death Guard fans... I'm gutted for you. I want a balanced game and to be able to play against flavourful opponents and everyone enjoy themselves, so the fact you guys aren't happy isn't good. 

I'm trying to stay positive about it, but it is difficult. I like the idea of the Death Guard inexorably spreading across the board. I think it goes well with the idea that Astartes of all stripes are shock troops and shouldn't spend the game in their own deployment zone (which is a concept it seems GW has been pushing since Combat Doctrines was first introduced into rules; Chaos and Grey Knights had their own versions). I'm hoping there's enough overall lethality balance that DG actually end up feeling tough-to-kill. If that's the case, then I'm okay with them having to plink down tanks over the course of 5 turns.

[WrathOfTheLion]

9 minutes ago, jaxom said:

I'm trying to stay positive about it, but it is difficult. I like the idea of the Death Guard inexorably spreading across the board. I think it goes well with the idea that Astartes of all stripes are shock troops and shouldn't spend the game in their own deployment zone (which is a concept it seems GW has been pushing since Combat Doctrines was first introduced into rules; Chaos and Grey Knights had their own versions). I'm hoping there's enough overall lethality balance that DG actually end up feeling tough-to-kill. If that's the case, then I'm okay with them having to plink down tanks over the course of 5 turns.

I understand the position of a lot of people that are negative, I completely understand their point.

 

I've just been on this ride before. I don't do the hot takes anymore, and I'm just not going to worry about it until we see the index and I get the real stuff in front of me.

[prava]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:54 AM, tzeentch9 said:

Death guard only lose disgustingly resiliant, but since damage and lethality is down everywhere, there’s not much gone. On the other hand they gain a massive boost in their damage output, with all the lethal hits, making pretty much all their weapons anti tank etc to some extent

 

No, they do not get a massive boost in their damage output. Blightlords, in melee, can't kill vehicles even if they tried. They just can't. If they got a powerfist, at least, they could wound T9 vehicles on a 4+. But no, lets give them poor strength weapons in a world of high toughness...

 

On 5/19/2023 at 4:16 AM, KingYertle said:

Once the full index is available it is plausible that Rhino Rush or Daemon Engine Spam are competitively viable lists.  My disappointment in the new direction is how that runs counter to the previous DG Lore.  Just read the WarCom recommended Tribology.  They are full of battle scenes were Plague Marines are described as soaking up repeated bolter fire without faltering, and the Death Guard aura of disease straight out kills unmodified mortals.   A simple T5 with no Disgustingly Resilient doesn't feel true to the Lore of what made Death Guard Unique.    Death Guard as a Faction should be slowly advancing, ridiculously hard to kill Infantry.   Space Orcs in Power Armor doesn't feel sufficient.  I hope to be proven wrong once all rules are released, but right now it is difficult to be Excited for the Index.

 

 

 

Rhino rush with units that do poorly at shooting (so no benefit while embarked) and cant charge after disembarking? Good luck surviving on your next turn.

 

On 5/19/2023 at 3:33 PM, danodan123 said:

 

What would your answer be to fix DG ?

 

It seems most people want their faction to be pretty much the best thing that can be possible, would an army wide 5+++ solve the issue?

 

You didn't ask me but I will give you my opinion.

 

Give DG the following rule:

 

DISGUSTINGLY RESILIENT

The first time every phase a unit with this rule has been wounded by a weapon with Strenth 10 or less and failed the saving throw, you can ignore said wound. (saves that are automatically failed count as failed saves).

 

 

This should represent their sturdiness pretty decently. And would force opponets to target the units in the proper order to trigger the effect so that their best weapon isn't the one being negated. At the same time, It shouldn't mess with single-attack weapons (it would make no sense for a DG unit to survive the new harpoon or rail-gun, for instance).

 

On 5/19/2023 at 3:56 PM, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

It's not that I want them to be the best. I posted earlier, 33% win rate in 8th and less than 50% in 9th. 5+++ isn't broken when it was offset by terrible movement, mediocre damage output and competitively point costed. They are just slowly stripping away the identity which directly translates to staying power. That's what us DG players are mad about.

 

If I had control, the faction bonus would have been DR. That way it was on every unit. They could do away with -1T aura and undo all the units and wargear that got their strength nerfed in 9th when it came out. They always found a way to keep DG down. Marines chapter trait applied to all their vehicles. DG legion trait only applied to bubonic astartes units, a keyword conviently left off all of their daemon engines (who would have loved the +1 to hit with guns in melee).

 

 

This. Infantry strength seems to cap around 8, which is where the Deathshroud and mower drone will end up (our only decent multi damage melee). Meltas cap at S9, making MBH's not great for anti tank. Hopefully PBC's entropy cannons go to S12?

 

DR was bad. It destroys D2 weapons for no reason at all.

 

On 5/19/2023 at 10:54 PM, Plaguecaster said:

Why is army wide feel no pain an issue,

Oh it slows the game down is such a stupid reasons considering everything else that slows down a game yet no one cares about those 

AOS has feel no pain on entire armies and never is an issue there, I know playing nighthaunt who have it on everything 

And if they removed it for death guard that reason why the hell is it back for others 

You can give every world eaters unit in your army feel no pain due to blessing of khorne so basically every turn if you wanted as long as you rolled a double from the 8 dice rolls. No actual resilence rules for DG is just damn stupid. I like people's idea of going full on transports for armored assault but annoying death guards main theme of bring Infantry only shambling up the battlefield shrugging off most damage is now obsolete 

 

 

But in AOS extra damage goes to the next model, does it not? So, it works differently than in 40k.

 

[jaxom]

47 minutes ago, prava said:

 

DISGUSTINGLY RESILIENT

The first time every phase a unit with this rule has been wounded by a weapon with Strenth 10 or less and failed the saving throw, you can ignore said wound. (saves that are automatically failed count as failed saves).

I've been thinking about it, and I think my main issue with what we've seen is that Death Guard has a double weakness against tanks in what appears to be an edition encouraging at least some tanks in every list. I'm of the sort that are okay with DG's extra resilience being against only small arms fire, but in this case the best way to capitalize on the weakness is tanks with big guns and DG are now also (apparently) going to struggle with damage output against tanks.

[Indy Techwisp]

We've only seen their Terminators and Psyker tho, right?

Maybe the Armies Anti-Tank role is filled by a different unit.

[Dark Legionnare]

19 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

We've only seen their Terminators and Psyker tho, right?

Maybe the Armies Anti-Tank role is filled by a different unit.

Aye.  For DG unique stuff, I'd bet loads of money on it being the entropy cannons on the PBC still. Since it's still only two per chassis, maybe it will stay D3+3, maybe D6+2 or some such. I wouldn't put it past GW to make the MBH's MM and ML some "special" kind? But otherwise it'd just be a MM and ML, which won't be too good at cracking tanks from what we know.

As for non-DG-uniques I'm sure it'll be the standard array of boxes/walkers. Lascannons on LR's, dreads (helbrute), predators, etc...  I'm most curious on what the defiler's potential glow-up or *Insert "look how they massacred my boy" GIF here* will be.
 

The lascannon changes, and hopefully points staying the same, will mean my TLC dread gets a bit happier.  If he's not as durable as wet tissue paper at least. Has there been any insight into dreads (helbrutes) yet, or what kind of durability they'll have? Closest thing the previewed armigers?

Edited May 22, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[jaxom]

41 minutes ago, Dark Legionnare said:

For DG unique stuff, I'd bet loads of money on it being the entropy cannons on the PBC still. Since it's still only two per chassis, maybe it will stay D3+3, maybe D6+2 or some such. I wouldn't put it past GW to make the MBH's MM and ML some "special" kind? But otherwise it'd just be a MM and ML, which won't be too good at cracking tanks from what we know.

That's where I'd put my bet, as much as it pains me to do so. Don't get me wrong, I love Blight Crawlers, but if one cannot make an all infantry Death Guard list then the Design Studio has left out a vital aspect of the Legion.

[Arkhanist]

53 minutes ago, Dark Legionnare said:

The lascannon changes, and hopefully points staying the same, will mean my TLC dread gets a bit happier.  If he's not as durable as wet tissue paper at least. Has there been any insight into dreads (helbrutes) yet, or what kind of durability they'll have? Closest thing the previewed armigers?

 

We've had the stats for the new missile dreadnought - T10 12W. Probably about the same as the redemptor which is T7 13W in 9th. The armiger goes from T7 12W to T10 12W. The rhino which is also T7 only goes up to 9 though in 10th.

 

So if the helbrute follows the same pattern, it would also go from T7 to T9 or T10, wounds probably staying about 8.

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Arkhanist

[Squark]

3 hours ago, Dark Legionnare said:

Aye.  For DG unique stuff, I'd bet loads of money on it being the entropy cannons on the PBC still. Since it's still only two per chassis, maybe it will stay D3+3, maybe D6+2 or some such. I wouldn't put it past GW to make the MBH's MM and ML some "special" kind? But otherwise it'd just be a MM and ML, which won't be too good at cracking tanks from what we know.

As for non-DG-uniques I'm sure it'll be the standard array of boxes/walkers. Lascannons on LR's, dreads (helbrute), predators, etc...  I'm most curious on what the defiler's potential glow-up or *Insert "look how they massacred my boy" GIF here* will be.
 

The lascannon changes, and hopefully points staying the same, will mean my TLC dread gets a bit happier.  If he's not as durable as wet tissue paper at least. Has there been any insight into dreads (helbrutes) yet, or what kind of durability they'll have? Closest thing the previewed armigers?

Armigers are T10, while the Questoris class is T12

Edited May 22, 2023 by Squark

[prava]

2 hours ago, jaxom said:

I've been thinking about it, and I think my main issue with what we've seen is that Death Guard has a double weakness against tanks in what appears to be an edition encouraging at least some tanks in every list. I'm of the sort that are okay with DG's extra resilience being against only small arms fire, but in this case the best way to capitalize on the weakness is tanks with big guns and DG are now also (apparently) going to struggle with damage output against tanks.

 

And the weakness against vehicles is double. DG can't kill vehicles in melee and can't kill vehicles in shooting. Spamming PBC, to me, is not a solution. How to you deal with something that is T14 like a monolith? Definitely not shooting it 6 times a turn and wounding it on 5s... but then in melee you do not get options for them either.

 

And this edition will favor tanks and punish hordes. So not only is DG punished when it brings a ton of poxwalkers... it doesn't have a solution for tanks. Will be interesting to see how the army functions. Unless the units are undercosted and the solution is simply brute force.

 

2 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

We've only seen their Terminators and Psyker tho, right?

Maybe the Armies Anti-Tank role is filled by a different unit.

 

What unit do you think will have strength higher than 12?

 

54 minutes ago, Squark said:

Armigers are T10, while the Questoris class is T10

 

I believe you wanted to write "Questoris class is T12"?

[Indy Techwisp]

44 minutes ago, prava said:

What unit do you think will have strength higher than 12?

 

Absolutely no idea, I don't play Death Guard

 

Edit: Probably Moriatorn has a S12 weapon.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Indy Techwisp
Expanding comment

[Squark]

1 hour ago, prava said:

I believe you wanted to write "Questoris class is T12"?

Drat. It originally said "S12," and in the prcoess of fixing one typo.

31 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Absolutely no idea, I don't play Death Guard

 

Edit: Probably Moriatorn has a S12 weapon.

Montarion being S14, or even, say, S18 (I can't see him being stronger than Angron), is not enough to carry the faction.

[DuskRaider]

It seems GW have been going out of their way to strip Death Guard of what made them what they are for years. The loss of Feel No Pain was a significant blow in 9th and it looks like they’re even worse now. 
 

Disappointed is an understatement. 

[DemonGSides]

I retain hope that the Blight Hauler gets under the Melta Nerf, but I am eternally optimistic lol

[Dark Legionnare]

4 hours ago, jaxom said:

That's where I'd put my bet, as much as it pains me to do so. Don't get me wrong, I love Blight Crawlers, but if one cannot make an all infantry Death Guard list then the Design Studio has left out a vital aspect of the Legion.

Preaching to the choir. Plague Havocs makes absolute sense.  Why they didn't make any...

 

Example armament: Missile launcher with "Virus missiles" or such.

 

Such an absolute wasted opportunity.

[Special Officer Doofy]

2 hours ago, Squark said:

Montarion being S14, or even, say, S18 (I can't see him being stronger than Angron)

 

Mortarion is already stronger than Angron (statwise in game, not lore). Angron's current heavy hit is S9 +5 for S14, Mortarion's heavy hit is S16 -1T. Has been for 2 editions now.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[Squark]

2 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

Mortarion is already stronger than Angron (statwise in game, not lore). Angron's current heavy hit is S9 +5 for S14, Mortarion's heavy hit is S16 -1T. Has been for 2 editions now.

Touché. I stand by the statement that one character cannot carry a faction's sole heavy armor duties, though.

[Special Officer Doofy]

7 hours ago, prava said:

DR was bad. It destroys D2 weapons for no reason at all.

 

In my post you quoted I said I wanted the 5+++ DR back, not the -1D. Although I would have took either instead of the slap to the face haha.