Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: Death Guard

[prava]

4 hours ago, Arikel said:

Personally have to disagree with you here. For all intents and purposes, Death Guard are essentially zombie Astartes; they are slow, they are unrelenting, and they just keep coming no matter how much you throw at them. They don’t necessarily bring any extra killing power beyond the foul miasma of disease and corruption that floats in the air around them. Having an extra wound per model would be a good way to represent that.

 

In addition, some other traits representing their ability to shrug off damage are warranted, whether it’s some type of FNP, army wide invulnerable, or a way to heal wounds and restore lost models as the pustulent cancers within them regenerate faster than even enhanced Astartes flesh. It will be interesting to see what the rest of the index is like, and the codex after that.

 

Unless there is a 0 CP stratagem that grants 5+ FNP to a unit... I can't see how you make DG durable with the rules we have seen. And using logic alone a plague marine can't be tougher than a Blightlord. It can't. At the same time, DG have always had short-range weapons and decent melee. In 10th, melee seems significantly worse (by virtue of AP going down and Toughness going up), and being slower does not help at all. Heck, a single rhino charges your blightlords and they can't kill it.

 

DG rules make no sense to me. Movement is the most important stat in the game. By far. Doubly-so if your army is melee focused, and DG is. And you can't get in melee if you move this slow.

 

I don't know. Maybe DG have "advance and charge" stratagems, FNP stratagems and the some god-like stuff... but since they haven't shown any of it I wouldn't be optimistic. Faction Focus is supposed to create hype, and they do that by showing possible combos and good things. Why not show Blight Haulers? Or Bload-Drone? Or even the PBC? Mortarion?

 

[Mogger351]

8 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

They had a 33% mono winrate going into 9th and hovered below 50% all of 9th. I've exclusively played DG for all of 8th and 9th (with some Nurgle daemons splashed in for fun in 9th). I know the armies strengths and weaknesses. We lost durability (going from 5+++ to -1D to nothing). We lost some movement. Our AP and S went down on weapons (which is going on game wide, so not a unique issue to DG). The faction bonus is not great, -1T on a conditional short range aura when we are the slowest army and the game now scales to T14+ is not good.

 

There are way less new pros to go with the worse new cons. Barring point drops on everything and DG being cheaper than regular astartes, they are worse off than they were previously. The core changes to the game and everything going to a higher toughness is going to hurt them. The "not being what I want/expect" is not the reason they are "not being any good in a game sense" even if there is some overlap.

All of those win rates and experience with the rules of 8th/9th literally don't matter any more. It'll be a different game to play, that's the point.

 

You have no context for points, I disagree that -1t is of low value. You're right that lethality is lower for everyone, a point most people complaining miss. But there's no reason a t5 3+ marine with a special bolter would be cheaper than a t4 3+ marine with a basic bolter.

 

It is a degree of wait and see, I understand that the durability feels like its not their shtick any more, maybe it isn't, but it's emotional baggage being shown by people rather than anything factual because the picture is too incomplete.

[Captain Idaho]

The problem with the Death Guard faction ability is it relies on the Death Guard getting close so is inherently useless for anything early the game or further than 9" away later on.

 

Compared to Space Marines, even Chaos Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus and Eldar... who get their abilities all game from turn one, it's very niche and thus its impact less useful.

 

Taking into consideration that dropping a tank from T12 to T11 isn't going to help a Multi-melta or bolter, the -1 T just isn't as impactful as it could be.

[prava]

3 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

All of those win rates and experience with the rules of 8th/9th literally don't matter any more. It'll be a different game to play, that's the point.

 

You have no context for points, I disagree that -1t is of low value. You're right that lethality is lower for everyone, a point most people complaining miss. But there's no reason a t5 3+ marine with a special bolter would be cheaper than a t4 3+ marine with a basic bolter.

 

It is a degree of wait and see, I understand that the durability feels like its not their shtick any more, maybe it isn't, but it's emotional baggage being shown by people rather than anything factual because the picture is too incomplete.

 

-1 T is of extremely low use AND you only get it turn 2 if your rival allows it.

 

Should have been +1 to wound or additional 1AP. At least when you get the bonus turn 2 or 3 it does something relevant

[Cleon]

Historically GW have been very bad at remembering to include the impact of non standard movement on points, if DG are appropriately costed for being slow and short ranged you could get to field an awful lot of them, but I wouldn't hold my breath...

[DemonGSides]

5 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

All of those win rates and experience with the rules of 8th/9th literally don't matter any more. It'll be a different game to play, that's the point.

They matter to the point the poster was making; that he isn't just talking out his ass about the actual playstyle and experience of DG.  You missing this obvious point right from the beginning is more indicative than anything.

 

5 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

 

You have no context for points, I disagree that -1t is of low value. You're right that lethality is lower for everyone, a point most people complaining miss. But there's no reason a t5 3+ marine with a special bolter would be cheaper than a t4 3+ marine with a basic bolter.

It's not that -1T means nothing, it's that it is A: Too hard to apply, and B: doesn't matter where it should the most, which is against bigger things.  The infantry is already mincemeat with our weapons, so toughness doesn't matter.

 

5 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

It is a degree of wait and see, I understand that the durability feels like its not their shtick any more, maybe it isn't, but it's emotional baggage being shown by people rather than anything factual because the picture is too incomplete.

 

While I don't disagree there's too much wailing and gnashing of teeth as if they completely knee-capped the faction, it's still a bummer of a faction focus that told us very little about how the faction works, especially when compared to other faction previews (Chaos Knights, CSM, Tau, Eldar).

[jaxom]

I decided to do a little graphical presentation to help me wrap my head around Aura of Contagion's usefulness. Strength goes across the top, Toughness goes down the side. Red boxes are where reducing the Toughness by one would alter the necessary roll to wound, and percentage across the bottom is how often those shifts come up for that Strength value.

There's definitely a sweet spot around the usual infantry engagement values. Strength 4 vs Toughness 3-5 & Strength 5 vs Toughness 3, 5, and 6, for example. I think the anti-tank is still an issue.

[Pathstrider]

I did have a thought, -1t will help blight launchers vs t12 vehicles or reapers auto cannon vs t14.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Pathstrider

[KingYertle]

Nice Graph Jaxom.  Really highlights how the loss of Str on the Blightlord Melee weapons might prove to be the most significant change.

[Dark Legionnare]

Just saw they gave the newer beast boys a FNP 6+.

While I get that it's not as likely as 5+, or army-wide like DG should be, that's a core troops choice that would slow down a game just as much as rolling for 5+'s on DG units.

It's also a troops unit that someone could take 6 of in a game, and in large numbers per squad if the current 20 limit is maintained. 

Oi vey, haha.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[phandaal]

Just now, Dark Legionnare said:

Just saw they gave the newer beast boys a FNP 6+.

While I get that it's not as likely as 5+, or army-wide like DG should be, that's a core troops choice that would slow down a game just as much as rolling for 5+'s on DG.
There's a unit that someone could take 6 of in a game, and in large numbers. 

Oi vey, haha.

 

As a Votann enjoyer seeing all these other armies showing off Lethal Hits after having every trace of it obliterated from my army, I get this feeling.

 

GW's ways are capricious.

[Squark]

Edit: Derp, never mind, I'm an idiot.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Squark

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

As a Votann enjoyer seeing all these other armies showing off Lethal Hits after having every trace of it obliterated from my army, I get this feeling.

 

GW's ways are capricious.

Yeah, I feel like there must be something they didn't show that brings it all together. On the other hand, I may be disappointed.

[Dr. Clock]

10 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

it's very niche

Is it, though? I understand that debuff needs to 'get up some momentum', but having it on all your units and having it affect all enemy units makes it one of the broadest and potentially most impactful army-wide abilities in the game.

 

Space Marines: theirs is literally only effective against one enemy unit by default.

 

Chaos Marines: relatively comparable to DG: swap -1 enemy T for sustained/lethal hits, and lower/increasing range instead of always risk of mortals.

 

AdMech: maximum usage depends on their units being somewhere in a specific 20-25% of the board. Otherwise this is essentially 'letting AdMech keep BS3+ if they don't move, or BS4+ when Advancing'.

 

Eldar: Admittedly very powerful, but likely not as powerful as it is in 9th, and needs good micro to maximize impact. Also on an army that's traditionally quite close in cost model for model, while having about half the T and W overall, and on whom your -1T is thus frankly terrifying.

 

The nice thing about the army rule is that it's truly army- and game-wide, and completely predictable. Decision-making turn over turn is low, so you can plan around the range scaling and play for the last three turns instead of the first two. Interesting parallel to Drukhari style, where I bet they just get better rather than making opponents worse in the back half.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, it's niche because the ability is useless a lot of the time.

 

Certainly more than any of the faction abilities so far. All of which can be used from turn one, which Death Guard won't be able to do.

 

Also, there are many circumstances that don't care about dropping a point of toughness, such as lethal hits that is supposed to be an benefit Death Guard bolters have, or high toughness models going from 12 to 11 and bolters and melta still wounding on the same score etc.

 

Niche.

 

[Doctor Perils]

Apologies if this has already been answered, but I don't see any mention of "no stacking" for the aura of contagion - is there something in the core rules that would change that?

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

2 minutes ago, Doctor Perils said:

Apologies if this has already been answered, but I don't see any mention of "no stacking" for the aura of contagion - is there something in the core rules that would change that?

 

On 5/23/2023 at 5:38 PM, Sir Clausel said:

Acording to the leaked rules you can only be under the effect of an aura once. You can be under the effect of multiple different auras but the same auras dont stack.

 

[Doctor Perils]

8 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

 

 

Thanks

In that case, I must admit I agree with people saying its a bit niche, but at least it seems thematic - makes sense that normal infantry should suffer most from this

[DemonGSides]

I think the pestilence is very on brand, just not really enough to constitute an army wide rule, with what it offers.

If it was -1T and -1 to hit to represent the enemies being sick and unable to bring their weapons up?  I'm not gonna complain anymore.  Just that what the contagion does isn't really impactful enough to constitute "What makes Death Guard Unique".

It can be fixed, just that we don't think that's going to happen for a long time, considering we aren't on the schedule for codexes anytime, which is also a good thing because then GW can watch us flounder (if it goes that way, we could always all be wrong since we're just theory-hammering here), and make aggressive buffs.

[WrathOfTheLion]

What I want to see is what units interact with the army rule.

[MithrilForge]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

It can be fixed, just that we don't think that's going to happen for a long time, considering we aren't on the schedule for codexes anytime, which is also a good thing because then GW can watch us flounder (if it goes that way, we could always all be wrong since we're just theory-hammering here), and make aggressive buffs.

 

This....  

Edited May 24, 2023 by Mumeishi

[spessmarine]

35 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

What I want to see is what units interact with the army rule.

 

This is a real big thing possibly, for marines their terminators and Guilliman both interact with OoM. I think the faction rule for all factions will have a fair degree of being interacted with which is why some seem so simple or plain.

 

14 hours ago, prava said:

 

-1 T is of extremely low use AND you only get it turn 2 if your rival allows it.

 

Should have been +1 to wound or additional 1AP. At least when you get the bonus turn 2 or 3 it does something relevant

 

"Allow"

 

Spoiler

 

[WrathOfTheLion]

It is the main thing keeping me from forming a final opinion. Some play on progressive auras could be huge, depending on what it is. From characters, to icons.

[jaxom]

13 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

It is the main thing keeping me from forming a final opinion. Some play on progressive auras could be huge, depending on what it is. From characters, to icons.

I think today's TSon preview may be a nice indicator of how a limited unit faction can have those sorts of synergies. The Rubric Marines look really nice as the Thousand Sons troop unit and I hope Plague Marines are similar.

[DemonGSides]

Yeah seeing Rubrics not just be "Normal" troops like Guardsmen or Guardians really gives me hope that our Plague Marines are actually interesting units with lots of opportunity.  Then again, the Rubrics only look so nice because they play so well within the TSons faction abilities.