Wh40k 10th Edition Space Marine Index

[MagicHat]

Now I have done some questionable things in the past. 

In 5th (6th?) command squads could dualwield special weapons, so I prototyped making underslung flamer/meltaguns. Just a 5 pt upgrade to the meltaguns in my mind, giving you the option to wall of death or template some infantry if no melta target was around. Parts for 2 such marines are still in my bitz box somewhere.

 

Twinlinked PG for Razorbacks, no big deal it was a silly thing anyway and I used magnets.

 

I also have a VV with PF/LC (ugly) and one with LC/TH (kinda cool!), made for Specialist Weapon bonus. Fair enough that they aren't a thing anymore.

And now all my VV wears buffed out chainswords! Why not! Still have 4 pistol options though.

 

My 5 man sternguard with 2 HF jumping out of a Razorback is no longer a thing either I see. Good thing my Razorbacks can all turn into Rhino because I only have 2 units left that can go into them and PC devastators don't really want or need one.

 

It is baffling to me that so much of this edition looks good to me. Assault marines looks phenomenal (special weapons lack of combat weapon aside). 95% of the datasheets look great and yet I can't work up any motivation to continue my marine army because I have no idea what will be lost next.

 

Also, Servitor 4+ BS has to be a mistake. (3+ with TM, 2+ with heavy...)

 

24 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

You wound to roll against the models you are hitting. The bodyguard are always the target unless the weapon has precision.

 

So you would simply target the Bladeguard, and then the Victrix. 

 

Snipers could target Calgar himself and would roll against his toughness. 

 

Precision weapons rolls to hit and and wound against the attached unit, and then allocates the wound to characters.

 

However, ATV have the same T as bikes?

 

And Calgar (character) is surely leading his unit of Victrix guard (not character) so not an issue, just a character with bodyguards, joining a bigger bodyguard unit.

[Kilamandaros]

16 minutes ago, jimbo1701 said:

So the reiver lt is still useless right?

 

Not at all, they will be incredible for knocking units off objectives with forced battleshock tests. Even if they don't win the combat they may well win you the game by stealing a key objective.

[Dried]

36 minutes ago, MagicHat said:

 

However, ATV have the same T as bikes?

...

That's embarrassing. I reread it 3 times yesterday and I was certain.

I think the changes in the statline order is messing with my brain a little.

 

But my point with Calgar remains.

Another funny stuff with Calgar: you can't shoot him with a precision weapon when he is with his Victrix only (because it's not an attached unit) but when he is leading another unit you can shoot him with a sniper (but can use his 4+ fnp).

 

[Progenitor]

I'm optimistic about things. I've always loved Librarians and Chaplains and now there's some really nice combos you can use when slotting them into units. Terminators genuinely seem beastly now too. I'm looking forward to seeing what Dark Angels get and what the Interrogator-Chaplains give out, if they suck then as long as I don't want to run Characters I can just Gladius Task Force and off we go. I'm really liking how this is looking from the off. I'm just rallying vibing on the flexibility of the army building now. 

[Firedrake Cordova]

5 hours ago, jaxom said:

It took me a long time and listening to hobby talk in a lot places before it really hit home how many people actually like to buy a box and just build it without having to think about details. It's particularly strong in the AoS community, but it's present in the 40k community as well. I expect it's also why a Command Squad is now exactly what's in the box: 1 Ancient, 1 Apothecary, 1 Champion, and 2 Veterans.

It's an interesting point, and not one I'd considered.  

 

Whilst it's annoying that the changes in the index mean my army isn't legal (I didn't assemble a company champion or ancient as I don't like the models), I doubt it'll be a problem for me, as I don't think many people will object to anyone making the unit less powerful by replacing them with bolter guys  

[Arkhanist]

I do like that a lot of units look very viable, and I'm likely not going to be pigeonholed into a majority of my army needing to be death company + sanguinary guard to put up a decent fight. It always offended me on a fluff level because they're both supposed to be pretty small contingents. Bladeguard, terminators, assault squads and intercessor assault squads all look very good with character support, I think incursors could be my new scouts, and adding in some new armour for transport and monster/tank hunting will be a good idea. My unbuilt VV bits can go to 'BA bling' some other units.

 

I do have a couple of razorbacks, but I think I might convert them to whirlwinds; indirect fire is extremely limited, but could be very useful for taking out barbgaunts or similar '"slow down boys" units, and I hate the new missile primaris.

[Lord_Ikka]

Dang, just realized the 2 extra Victrix Guard I have coming with Imperium are now no longer going to be useful. Hmm. I guess I could convert them to a Primaris Champion and a Captain...

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I hate that the points weren't dropped with this because it makes it so hard to truly evaluate anything.

 

That said I'm overall happy with this, I think there's alot of strong combos here and I think it will be a decent enough start to tye edition. No give me soacewolf stuff so I can see what we can't have from this list lol.

[jimbo1701]

1 hour ago, Kilamandaros said:

 

Not at all, they will be incredible for knocking units off objectives with forced battleshock tests. Even if they don't win the combat they may well win you the game by stealing a key objective.

 

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

the unit? Not really, they all have precision in melee and ranged, which means they can just assassinate characters regardless of bodyguards.

they force battleshock every fight phase for any unit theyre in melee with and make it harder to pass battleshock in the first place, AP modifiers are less common than they were so their lack of one feels less bad

Not the reivers chaps, the reiver LT, as he still can’t use grapnel or grav chutes like the reivers themselves can. The lt in Phobos armour has some uses with a grav chute reiver squad tho. I’m glad I started painting a unit up. 

[Blindhamster]

30 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Dang, just realized the 2 extra Victrix Guard I have coming with Imperium are now no longer going to be useful. Hmm. I guess I could convert them to a Primaris Champion and a Captain...

if you could source another 2, it would be a cool UM specific bladeguard squad!

1 minute ago, jimbo1701 said:

 

Not the reivers chaps, the reiver LT, as he still can’t use grapnel or grav chutes like the reivers themselves can. The lt in Phobos armour has some uses with a grav chute reiver squad tho. I’m glad I started painting a unit up. 

yeah its a shame the units grapnels dont confer the ability to the unit, rather than models, if they did, the Lt would get the benefits and it'd make him actually good.

[Kallas]

6 hours ago, jaxom said:

I blame the growth of the tournament scene and it's influence on list-building. GW's survey data showed that people more often buy kits if they thought they'd be "playable" in addition to liking how the models looked. "Playable" for those who want a quick check often means it can be found in a tournament player's list. Giving each unit it's own bespoke rule helps solidify a reason to take it compared to the other as people explore unit combinations. Could they have put it all in one entry (as per your example)? Sure, but that's against their current paradigm of presenting each unit as having one key role.

This argument holds no water when looking at the Primaris Captain/Captain example: they are literally exactly the same, except for which units they can attach to, and one of them has more wargear options (which are already available to some of the Sergeant of those units: Intercessor Sergeants can have a Thunder Hammer, but a Primaris Captain cannot!). It's not a matter of them being different, they are 99% the exact same, but for some reason they are split out.

 

6 hours ago, jaxom said:

It took me a long time and listening to hobby talk in a lot places before it really hit home how many people actually like to buy a box and just build it without having to think about details. It's particularly strong in the AoS community, but it's present in the 40k community as well. I expect it's also why a Command Squad is now exactly what's in the box: 1 Ancient, 1 Apothecary, 1 Champion, and 2 Veterans. GW doesn't care if you kit bash, but the kit's are designed more for those who don't want to kit bash. It's like how boxed cake is designed for people who just want to make a cake from a box, because the people who are going to add their stuff are going to add their own stuff without the company ever knowing about it and just seeing sales numbers for boxed cake. Every time someone buys a kit for conversion purposes, all GW sees is the kit getting sold.

Here's the problem with this: if people want to build the box how it comes, they always could and nothing ever stopped them from doing that. Reducing options for the people who don't want to build One Single Option is stupid. You want to build 10 Tactical Marines? You can! You've always been able to field a 10-man squad! But Intercessors and Assault Intercessors come in a 10-model box, but they aren't restricted to a 10-man squad, why? This is the problem: it's inconsistent.

[Blindhamster]

tactical squads should have retained the combat squads rule as their special ability

[Spambor]

21 hours ago, Bradeh said:

 They are just wargear options for Primaris Captains and Lieutenants. 

I don't know... I'm relatively new in the hobby (a whole closet to paint between SM & Death guard)
Vanguard vets, w storm shields, could, in terms of probability, stand against Deathshrouds. And I think that they were the best melee power output per model amongst SM. 

    Now they are just too much nerfed.  

And I have yet to assemble them. Even if I'm going to do it now, I don't know if 1 lightning claw and storm shield wolid be still valid due to this drastic changes. 

My 2 Tactical squads are now, not nerfed, but unplayable. And now what, I'm going to buy another set for 45€ and put 1 week worth of work just to add 5 additional wounds per squad, cause the standard bolt gunners are basicly just that (ok, in a objective hold meta are now 2 OC, but you know what I mean). 

[Lord_Ikka]

23 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

if you could source another 2, it would be a cool UM specific bladeguard squad!

Hmm. That is very true. I guess even now if I'm not using Calgar I can use them as a 4-man squad...

[Dark Legionnare]

5 hours ago, Zoatibix said:

My main army is Tyranids. That was a very painful read. 
 

I take the points on points and possible tactical errors…but by the sound of it the Nids got their arses absolutely handed to them in CC as well as shooting. 

And yes, this is just one game.

 

Did the Nids get to do anything cool…or even just successfully…? 

 

Points are the end-all, be-all for force balance, friend.  I wouldn't be doom and gloom of any shape about this test game until those come out. 

 

Right now, paying 0 points for all their big/special guns is a VERY large skew for SM. (I'm reminded of how my two long fang squads w/termi pack leader and cyclone ML went down, like, 300ish points with this advent. I haven't played my Longfangs since this change as it felt mean to others.)

 

Things to deal with monsters are points unknown as of right now, and I would certainly hope they're not maintaining this "everything is free" style of points in effect for SM in the twilight hours of 9th.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

[...]

@CrusaderXIII - what do you disagree with?

Were people not allowed to build 10-man Tactical Squads before now? Were they forced into building 5-man squads because they weren't explicitly compelled to do so on the datasheet?

And are Primaris Captains somehow extremely different from Captains, even though all shared equipment is identical, and they have the exact same abilities on the datasheet? The only difference being wargear, some of which is 100% available to Primaris, just not a Primaris Captain (eg, Intercessor Sergeants can have a Thunder Hammer, so can Captains, but not Primaris Captains).

 

Can you explain, because I'm confused how you can disagree with facts.

[tzeentch9]

6 hours ago, Zoatibix said:

My main army is Tyranids. That was a very painful read. 
 

I take the points on points and possible tactical errors…but by the sound of it the Nids got their arses absolutely handed to them in CC as well as shooting. 

And yes, this is just one game.

 

Did the Nids get to do anything cool…or even just successfully…? 

 

Just saw some of the tabletop titans game and tyranids wupped the marines, albeit with some questionable rulings, so I wouldn’t worry too much

[Spambor]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

Here's the problem with this: if people want to build the box how it comes, they always could and nothing ever stopped them from doing that. Reducing options for the people who don't want to build One Single Option is stupid. You want to build 10 Tactical Marines? You can! You've always been able to field a 10-man squad! But Intercessors and Assault Intercessors come in a 10-model box, but they aren't restricted to a 10-man squad, why? This is the problem: it's inconsistent.

I agree and would add that 5 man squads was perfectly legal, so e.g. I put 1 weak of efforts in these 2 squads, because where from my point of view the best choice, cause allows me to have 2 plasma guns and 2 gravi-cannons. I'm not an expert painter, but I put a lot of effort in it and try to improve constantly. And I don't want to destroy neither of sergeants nor grav-cannoners, though they are far from perfect. 

We don't only buy the models (extreamly expensive ones) but also put a lot of work (me also a lot of probability calcs, cause it's a game of dice rolling).

And now my 2x5 Tactical are not nerffed, but completely unplayable rules wise.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Spambor

[Zoatibix]

25 minutes ago, tzeentch9 said:

Just saw some of the tabletop titans game and tyranids wupped the marines, albeit with some questionable rulings, so I wouldn’t worry too much

Possibly the Shadow in the Warp clouded their judgement! 

[DemonGSides]

16 minutes ago, Spambor said:

I agree and would add that 5 man squads was perfectly legal, so e.g. I put 1 weak of efforts in these 2 squads, because where from my point of view the best choice, cause allows me to have 2 plasma guns and 2 gravi-cannons. I'm not an expert painter, but I put a lot of effort in it and try to improve constantly. And I don't want to destroy neither of sergeants nor grav-cannoners, though they are far from perfect. 

We don't only buy the models (extreamly expensive ones) but also put a lot of work (me also a lot of probability calcs, cause it's a game of dice rolling).

And now my 2x5 Tactical are not nerffed, but completely unplayable rules wise.

 

Not being able to run 5 man tactical I understand, but explain to me again why you have to destroy your models?

 

Couldn't you just... Get some more and flesh them out into 2x10 man squads?

[bigtrouble]

4 hours ago, Doobles88 said:

While that's very likely the intent with Calgar, he and the honour Guard are a unit that is attached. Once the Bladeguard are dead, Calgar are Victrix are just a unit, not a leader and bodyguard. 

 

Similarly there's no answer I can find to the Outrider with atv question. Guessing a faq is in order for mixed toughness units. 

The bikes and the ATV are both T5. My guess is you will not see mixed T units unless attached. The intent seems clear that the Victrix are targeted first, though a FAQ would be nice. If you notice, Calgar’s data sheet describes him as an EPIC HERO, but not the honor guard. Which means, as a character, he can’t be targeted while they are still alive.

[CCE1981]

I wonder if everyone else has the dame perception of rules interactions here.

How I see it:

Ancients give +1 Objective control.  If a Space Marine Squad with an Ancient fails Battleshock, the unit goes to 0 OC, then the Ancient banner kicks in giving each model OC 1.

 

Am I reading that right?

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Kallas said:

This argument holds no water when looking at the Primaris Captain/Captain example: they are literally exactly the same, except for which units they can attach to, and one of them has more wargear options (which are already available to some of the Sergeant of those units: Intercessor Sergeants can have a Thunder Hammer, but a Primaris Captain cannot!). It's not a matter of them being different, they are 99% the exact same, but for some reason they are split out.

 

Here's the problem with this: if people want to build the box how it comes, they always could and nothing ever stopped them from doing that. Reducing options for the people who don't want to build One Single Option is stupid. You want to build 10 Tactical Marines? You can! You've always been able to field a 10-man squad! But Intercessors and Assault Intercessors come in a 10-model box, but they aren't restricted to a 10-man squad, why? This is the problem: it's inconsistent.

I addressed the character bit in my post, re: marketing and stupid decisions for event optics.

 

A lot of Primaris box sets come with only 5 Assault/Intercessors or only 5 Incursors/Infiltrators (Blood Angel Combat Patrol, Get Started boxes, etc). The “inconsistency” covers them and the solo kits. Since GW pulled the Firstborn Start Collecting box, Tacticals have only been available as a solo box. I don't like it, but it fits.

  

15 minutes ago, CCE1981 said:

I wonder if everyone else has the dame perception of rules interactions here.

How I see it:

Ancients give +1 Objective control.  If a Space Marine Squad with an Ancient fails Battleshock, the unit goes to 0 OC, then the Ancient banner kicks in giving each model OC 1.

 

Am I reading that right?

I don't think so. "The Objective Control characteristic of all of its models is 0." The use of present-imperative makes me think Battleshock is applied to OC as a set condition, on top of any other modifiers to the OC characteristic. I imagine there will be a lot of dice roll-offs to decide which interpretation to use until there's an FAQ. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by jaxom
Response to post that when up while I was typing.

[Spambor]

9 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Not being able to run 5 man tactical I understand, but explain to me again why you have to destroy your models?

 

Couldn't you just... Get some more and flesh them out into 2x10 man squads?

Frankly, the Idea of 2 x 10 Tactical don't appeal to me (for now), it's a lot of work taken in account that I have a whole closet of unassembled/unpainted models between SM and DG (and after finished 2000+ of these two armies I like to make Drhurkai, Aledari and Deamos... and hardly but hopefully more). 

But that it's not the point. 

I payed them, assembled in respect of all the existent rules, with a lot of efforts in painting them. So also put a lot of work, as anyone else. 

It's like you collect cars and then the manufactures say "Sorry pal, you can't drive half of them anymore" "But I bought one of them 2 months ago..." "We are sorry, but you have plenty of new ones, only to improve your experience". 

One friend, who plays Magic the gathering card based game, said "What?! They exclude some units from time to rime?! But you put a lot of work and time in it!! In my game, cards are never eliminted, they pay a lot of money to make good new ones instead"

[Medicinal Carrots]

For possibly unintuitive shenanigans, Attack Bikes and Invader ATVs don't need to actually escort anything to use Outrider Escort. They are mounted units that are within 6" of themselves, so if someone shoots your unit of Attack Bikes or your ATV, that unit can just return fire (providing they survive). Unfortunately the Invictor specifies phobos infantry for Combat Support, so it can't do the same thing.