Wh40k 10th Edition Space Marine Index

[Blindhamster]

1 minute ago, Spambor said:

Frankly, the Idea of 2 x 10 Tactical don't appeal to me (for now), it's a lot of work taken in account that I have a whole closet of unassembled/unpainted models between SM and DG (and after finished 2000+ of these two armies I like to make Drhurkai, Aledari and Deamos... and hardly but hopefully more). 

But that it's not the point. 

I payed them, assembled in respect of all the existent rules, with a lot of efforts in painting them. So also put a lot of work, as anyone else. 

It's like you collect cars and then the manufactures say "Sorry pal, you can't drive half of them anymore" "But I bought one of them 2 months ago..." "We are sorry, but you have plenty of new ones, only to improve your experience". 

One friend, who plays Magic the gathering card based game, said "What?! They exclude some units from time to rime?! But you put a lot of work and time in it!! In my game, cards are never eliminted, they pay a lot of money to make good new ones instead"

Untrue, cards in most card games rotate out of being legal. Exception is for games with friends where you still can, but nothing stops you using 6 man tactical squads with friends either.
 

also, if you have two squads worth of tacticals under old rules you should have enough to do one squad of 10 under new.

 

Every edition things get dropped and added, it’s nothing new, every edition some things stop being legal, it sucks every time, but it’s not worth getting upset over at this point, particularly if you play with friends anyway 

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

I addressed the character bit in my post, re: marketing and stupid decisions for event optics.

You're right. It is stupid decisions from GW's marketing.

This whole Index feels like Marketing wrote the unit composition and the design team just filled in the rules.

 

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

A lot of Primaris box sets come with only 5 Assault/Intercessors or only 5 Incursors/Infiltrators (Blood Angel Combat Patrol, Get Started boxes, etc). The “inconsistency” covers them and the solo kits. Since GW pulled the Firstborn Start Collecting box, Tacticals have only been available as a solo box. I don't like it, but it fits.

You're right, some of the box sets come with 5-man squads. It still doesn't excuse setting a squad at 10-strong only, it's a stupid decision, and it's just more GW handling their players like complete idiots who cannot think for themselves. The point I made was that there was never anything stopping a player/collector from building 10 Tacticals from a box, even when the unit was allowed to be fielded in numbers of 5 to 10: it isn't a difficult concept. There was never anything that prevented a hobbyist from building 10 Tacticals from a Tactical Squad box, and it was never confusing to be able to build 10 or fewer models. It's an insulting move.

[bigtrouble]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

I addressed the character bit in my post, re: marketing and stupid decisions for event optics.

 

A lot of Primaris box sets come with only 5 Assault/Intercessors or only 5 Incursors/Infiltrators (Blood Angel Combat Patrol, Get Started boxes, etc). The “inconsistency” covers them and the solo kits. Since GW pulled the Firstborn Start Collecting box, Tacticals have only been available as a solo box. I don't like it, but it fits.

  

I don't think so. "The Objective Control characteristic of all of its models is 0." The use of present-imperative makes me think Battleshock is applied to OC as a set condition, on top of any other modifiers to the OC characteristic. I imagine there will be a lot of dice roll-offs to decide which interpretation to use until there's an FAQ. 

Definitely needs a FAQ.

[Dr. Clock]

26 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Every edition things get dropped and added, it’s nothing new, every edition some things stop being legal, it sucks every time, but it’s not worth getting upset over at this point, particularly if you play with friends anyway

Truth.

 

I'll take fall back and shoot and charge on tacs over combat squads. Seems like combat squads could become a weird issue in combination with Tactical Flexibility on, say, 12 units of 5... And in honesty I'll be putting Devastators and Sternguard in my razors because they benefit more from the supporting fire. That said, I do think they should have allowed 5-10 with 'second special at 10' because up to 6 units of 5+ would be fine.

 

Vanguard - I get it, but going hard on wargear efficiency has always been a risky business, and tbh they look like they're still fit for purpose, even if not the deathstar they were. Throw a jump Chaplain in there and things should heat up pretty good. 

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Sternguard can't go in Razorbacks.

[tzeentch9]

1 hour ago, Spambor said:

 

One friend, who plays Magic the gathering card based game, said "What?! They exclude some units from time to rime?! But you put a lot of work and time in it!! In my game, cards are never eliminted, they pay a lot of money to make good new ones instead"

If your friend is saying that, they are lying. Mtg is notorious for changing legality of cards, all the time. Cards are banned, unbanned and rotated from legality all the time. Hell, cards have been banned before they’ve come out before

[Wugo_Heaving]

 

On 6/9/2023 at 3:16 PM, Dark Legionnare said:

Oh man, I just went back and read that 'Tacitus' on the sternguard when you mentioned it.

Welp, that's our first hard house-rule right out of the gate before the edition is already out. GW.  Across the 8 marine armies in our playgroup, at least 5 (my own crimson fists included) have sternguard that love sailing around in rhinos and razorbacks.

 

You do realise you can change your own house rules, right?

 

23 hours ago, Malekor said:

If cheap, vindicators have some serious anti-tank and pretty durable with the 2+ save and a 33" threat range

 

And hilariously the shield means they can shoot their Demolisher Cannon directly into whatever has tagged them in combat.

 

12 hours ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Hellblasters are straight up broken I won't be using them if I can help it.

 

I wish this knee-jerk hyperbole would stop. You have no idea how much their points are, and on top of that you do realise that you will be facing an opponent who might just prioritise taking them out turn 1, and in a position in which their (possible) shoot on death rule won't do much or any damage?

 

5 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

the unit? Not really, they all have precision in melee and ranged, which means they can just assassinate characters regardless of bodyguards.

they force battleshock every fight phase for any unit theyre in melee with and make it harder to pass battleshock in the first place, AP modifiers are less common than they were so their lack of one feels less bad

But... very few attacks at S4 0/-1AP means they can't "just assassinate" characters.  At least they fill the niche of handing out battle shock. I might get hold of a little 5-man squad now, but I'm still not convinced.

 

 

 

Things I noticed:

 

Eliminators: You can put a Sniper rifle on the Sergeant and Lasfusil's on the other two (and vice versa). Could you do that before? Also on the fence about fusils being D6 damage. I mean, it's basically more damage but I quite liked the more reliable "elite gun" feel of flat 3, and hope their points don't go up too high as  a result.

 

Assault Squad (on foot!): Chainsword doctrine?  The cynical part of me thinks they want to sell more assault squads (because everyone has glued jump packs to the ones they already have) and rhinos. But I do hope this is a sign that the melee-oriented Chapters will have similar rules on their unique units. Can't wait to see on foot Death Company with Thunder Hammer doctrine. 

 

Outriders: Love that they have bigger squads and can take an ATV But why not include a similar Chainsword doctrine rule for them? The 9th rule of extra attacks on the charge wasn't even as powerful as it seems on paper. Maybe they're keeping that as a rule/strat for White Scars Outriders? I guess they'd be a decent target for the "lance" weapon Stratagem at least.

 

Vanguard Veterans: So they've just switched their fists and hammers off? They should have at the very least  have allowed a couple of those in the squad, and for the Sergeant to take a fancy "relic" weapon. Get out of here with that "Heirloom" nonsense. The VV set was the most flexible marine kit and now it's just "lol average melee weapons". What are they, Chaos marines? If they get embiggened along with the Sternguard I hope their profile changes appropriately so that none-melee oriented chapters can have some mobile melee threat.

 

Hunter/Stalker: At least they get the bonus against "fly" rather than "fliers" now. Skyfire protocol might actually be decent against an army that uses a lot of fly units if the Stalker is super-cheap. Depends on whether GW wants to sell more kits, or try and forget they exist so they can discontinue them?

 

 

In the wider view of the game going forward: I hope they include new/updated datacards in the actual kits for future updated models, or at least include them in the codexes (or even White Dwarf magazines) since presumably the big decks they'll be selling in a month all already include datasheets that will be outdated very quickly (at least for Tyranids and SM's)

 

 

 

 

[Blindhamster]

Just now, Wugo_Heaving said:

But... very few attacks at S4 0/-1AP means they can't "just assassinate" characters.  At least they fill the niche of handing out battle shock. I might get hold of a little 5-man squad now, but I'm still not convinced.

10 man squad is 40 attacks if you go the blades version. seeing as they could all be allocated to the character, thats got a good chance of killing most characters that aren't marine level durability. I'd agree that they're still not going to be amazing vs marine level things.

 

that said, if a unit of incursors shoot the target first they'd be hitting on 2s both with their HBPs and then with their combat blades, all of which can just target the character as a priority, then you could even throw in honour the chapter if they charge too. 10 shots hitting on 2s, wounding on 3s or 4s vs most GEQ or MEQ characters with -1 AP, followed by 40 attacks hitting on 2s, wounding on 2s or 3s and potentially also -1 AP if assault phase has a decent chance of killing anything not at TEQ or Gravi level I'd imagine. Though I can't be bothered to math it out.

 

still, their real purpose is to win you games by shutting down enemy units so you take objectives instead of them.

[Kallas]

6 minutes ago, Wugo_Heaving said:

Assault Squad (on foot!): Chainsword doctrine?  The cynical part of me thinks they want to sell more assault squads (because everyone has glued jump packs to the ones they already have) and rhinos. But I do hope this is a sign that the melee-oriented Chapters will have similar rules on their unique units. Can't wait to see on foot Death Company with Thunder Hammer doctrine. 

Yeah, they want to shift some stock, release new Primaris Jump Pack models and then stop selling Assault Marines. Might as well shift the old stock while they have it!

 

7 minutes ago, Wugo_Heaving said:

Vanguard Veterans: So they've just switched their fists and hammers off? They should have at the very least  have allowed a couple of those in the squad, and for the Sergeant to take a fancy "relic" weapon. Get out of here with that "Heirloom" nonsense. The VV set was the most flexible marine kit and now it's just "lol average melee weapons". What are they, Chaos marines? If they get embiggened along with the Sternguard I hope their profile changes appropriately so that none-melee oriented chapters can have some mobile melee threat.

If Sternguard are anything to go off of, they'll be a Primaris kit for sure but they'll have maybe two options, and any of the older options won't be there.

 

8 minutes ago, Wugo_Heaving said:

Hunter/Stalker: At least they get the bonus against "fly" rather than "fliers" now. Skyfire protocol might actually be decent against an army that uses a lot of fly units if the Stalker is super-cheap. Depends on whether GW wants to sell more kits, or try and forget they exist so they can discontinue them?

Skyfire is crap, because it's up to 24 shots hitting on 6s (because Overwatch) spread out across four different units (if they have FLY), and then it's not exactly a strong weapon profile - Anti-Fly 2+ means it wounds easily, but it's still AP-1 and D2, so it's not threatening vehicles/monsters, and it's not putting out much volume of fire for infantry. The Hunter is solid, because Anti-Fly 3+ and Devastating Wounds is yet another case DW being put on a high damage shot - though at least it's only one shot, unlike the D-Cannons...

[Blindhamster]

I fully expect updated vanguard to basically all have power weapon looking weapons, with 1-2 models being allowed a "heavy" melee weapon that will be a fist and a hammer in the kit. probably.

[Medicinal Carrots]

Hmm, am I missing something, or can you join multiple Servitor units to the unit the Techmarine is leading? So you could have a Tactical squad with a Techmarine and 3 units of Servitors in one big 23 model unit? Probably not a great idea, but could be some fun jank if you wanted to camp with heavy bolters or plasma cannons with a lot of ablative wounds.

[Syphid]

I applaud GW for giving each unit a bespoke rule that makes it feel unique. That goes a long way to contributing to the fun factor of old units. But for the love of the Emperor, what inconsistent and bizarre design choices.

 

Tactical Squads are forced into 10-man units, meaning they can't be put into Razorbacks.

 

We can't have proper Combi-Weapon rules, but there are five different pistol profiles?

 

Astartes Shields replace a weapon, except for when they don't. Storm Shield vs Terminator Storm Shield vs Relic Shield - I thought GW was trying to get away from inconsistent wargear profiles like this?

 

Champions, Apothecaries, and Ancients are sometimes characters, sometimes not.

 

The units that leaders can join or not join make no sense at all. A Captain/Chaplain on Bike can join a Bike Squad, but not an Attack Bike Squad, and so on.

 

A lot of head scratchers.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Syphid

[Arkangilos]

2 minutes ago, Syphid said:

Storm Shield vs Terminator Storm Shield vs Relic Shield - I thought GW was trying to get away from inconsistent wargear profiles like this?

The rule seems to be the same for all of them, though.

If they have no invulnerable save, they get a 4++.
If they have one, they get +1 wound.

[Syphid]

7 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

The rule seems to be the same for all of them, though.

If they have no invulnerable save, they get a 4++.
If they have one, they get +1 wound.

 

Just make it all the same - Storm Shield: This model has a 4+ Invulnerable Save and +1 wound. No Astartes Shield, Terminator Storm Shield, Relic Shield... Just one thing.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Syphid

[Cleon]

42 minutes ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

Hmm, am I missing something, or can you join multiple Servitor units to the unit the Techmarine is leading? So you could have a Tactical squad with a Techmarine and 3 units of Servitors in one big 23 model unit? Probably not a great idea, but could be some fun jank if you wanted to camp with heavy bolters or plasma cannons with a lot of ablative wounds.

I read that as intended as a no. It's specifically called out the Servitor unit can join 'one' other unit that is led by a techmarine - if the squad already has servitors it's not one unit it's two? It's not worded brilliantly but I think that's what is meant

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

2 hours ago, Wugo_Heaving said:

Eliminators: You can put a Sniper rifle on the Sergeant and Lasfusil's on the other two (and vice versa). Could you do that before? 

 

 

Yeah, every codex datasheet for the Eliminators to date has allowed them to do that. Unlike most/all other Primaris squads, there isn't a line stating that "all models" need to switch their main weapon to the alternate before the Sergeant can then take whatever alternatives he has. The options list has always simply had one set of options for the Sergeant and one for the "Eliminators" (specifically non-Sergeants). These are separate and independent from each other.

[Jaipii]

The most iconic unit of Raven Guard, Twin-Lightning Claw Jump Pack Veterans are having a hard time reading this. I hope they have some place in the 10th codex, and that the shields come with a price so they aren't an autotake. Other than that the index is looking fun! At least my Assault Squad sergeants can still use those Lightning Claws! ☺️

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

17 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I read that as intended as a no. It's specifically called out the Servitor unit can join 'one' other unit that is led by a techmarine - if the squad already has servitors it's not one unit it's two? It's not worded brilliantly but I think that's what is meant

 

I agree that's what is intended, but the wording is begging for abuse. If the Servitor unit can JOIN another unit, then at the end of the process, isn't the result still ONE (albeit larger) unit? Therefore, another Servitor unit would simply be joining that one unit.

 

Probably a lock for the first FAQ to clarify that only one Servitor unit can join any unit already led by a Techmarine or to point out that the Servitor unit isn't actually "joining" that other unit.
 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Lord Nord

[Medicinal Carrots]

12 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I read that as intended as a no. It's specifically called out the Servitor unit can join 'one' other unit that is led by a techmarine - if the squad already has servitors it's not one unit it's two? It's not worded brilliantly but I think that's what is meant

As worded, as soon as the Servitors join the other unit, they become part of that unit. So if they all join at once, it's a single unit because nothing's joined it, so all 3 should be free to join. If they join one by one, then it becomes a single unit after each Servitor unit joins, so each subsequent unit should be free to join.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

10 man squad is 40 attacks if you go the blades version. seeing as they could all be allocated to the character, thats got a good chance of killing most characters that aren't marine level durability. 

 

I play Eldar and I ca tell you that my Warlocks and Farseers are going to be legitimately terrified of Reiver squads. A 5-man squad of Reivers should be able to kill a Warlock without difficulty and most Eldar psykers are now limited to squishy Guardian squads. 

[Madao]

I don't know if anyone has pointed that out, but Brutalis Dread is a mortal wound machine with Tank Shock and its rule

[ZeroWolf]

14 minutes ago, Madao said:

I don't know if anyone has pointed that out, but Brutalis Dread is a mortal wound machine with Tank Shock and its rule

I am kicking myself for not getting one earlier, but I'll be picking up the solo release in the near future (read: next year)

[DemonGSides]

Same, my LGS had a pretty affordable box of it available until like, three weeks ago and now that Stormravens are showing transport capacity for ANY dread, i'm kicking myself in the ass for not jumping on that box.

[MasterDeath]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I play Eldar and I ca tell you that my Warlocks and Farseers are going to be legitimately terrified of Reiver squads. A 5-man squad of Reivers should be able to kill a Warlock without difficulty and most Eldar psykers are now limited to squishy Guardian squads. 

Havent you noticed? All Models are marines ever. Its only marines and every model or rule should only be reviewed with marines as the audience. Unless its Bad/good on marines, then its xenos time 

[Arkhanist]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

Same, my LGS had a pretty affordable box of it available until like, three weeks ago and now that Stormravens are showing transport capacity for ANY dread, i'm kicking myself in the ass for not jumping on that box.

 

If you don't want to wait, you can pick up a 3d printed resin upgrade kit for a Redemptor to turn it into a brutalis fairly cheaply; a quick search turns up

option 1

option 2

 

e.g.

 

 

I've also seen that you can kitbash using a set of claws from the leviathan Close Combat Upgrade Sprue, and multimelta or heavy bolter fronts from your bits box.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Arkhanist