Wh40k 10th Edition Space Marine Index

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, jaxom said:

When almost every list-building article for Space Marines starts with "get Vanguard Vets with Storm Shields and magnetize weapon options," there's something wrong in the design space.

Not sure why you think I think having one unit dominate the competitive design space is good. I don't.

 

3 minutes ago, jaxom said:

magnetize weapon options

I mean, this Index is a perfect example of why magnetising is important: GW swings wildly from update to update with how they balance things. The reason magnetisation has become so popular/mainstream is because GW keeps on swinging between nerfing the hell out of something and then buffing the hell out of something else; and then changes it up the next update!

 

Removing all options is not the answer.

[Xenith]

Strat that worsens the AP of incoming attacks by 1 also doesn't have a "to a minimum of 0" so you can push things into ap+1, giving your power armour an effective 1+ save in cover from AP0 weapons 

[Captain Idaho]

 

8 minutes ago, Xenith said:

Assault squad with hammer of wrath? average 5 free mortals on a 10 man unit is the strongest thing we've seen so far in 10th I think, that's before they even get to making attacks. 

 

Well let's not overstate it as Eldar are still a thing , but they're certainly very good. Ultimately, they die fairly easily and will otherwise bounce off heavy armour potentially.

 

I think they'll find themselves in most lists. I think they look amazing.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Karhedron]

18 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

According to Valrak's sources the primaris jump pack troops have been done for a while but considering that the Desolation Marines have been sat on GWs shelves for 3+ years after being done, that's still no guarantee they won't be out till 11th edition.

 

The funny thing is that the Assault Squads look like they have Primaris stats. They have the same number of attacks as Assault Intercessors. All they are missing is the armour keyword.

 

Now what do we think is the best loadout for Assault squads? Assault Intercessors have plenty of basic attacks and are good for bullying enemy on Objectives. I think Jump Assault squads are going to be best built to maximise special weapons and attacks. This is what I currently toying with.

 

1 x Sergent with Power fist, shield and Inferno/Grav pistol

1 x Eviscerator

2 x Melta Guns

1 x BP/CS (aka, Brother Bulletcatcher  )

[jaxom]

26 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Not sure why you think I think having one unit dominate the competitive design space is good. I don't.

 

I mean, this Index is a perfect example of why magnetising is important: GW swings wildly from update to update with how they balance things. The reason magnetisation has become so popular/mainstream is because GW keeps on swinging between nerfing the hell out of something and then buffing the hell out of something else; and then changes it up the next update!

 

Removing all options is not the answer.

I didn’t think you did, but VV dominating was a consequence of their options (and an appropriate point cost). Personally, I like the idea of building what looks cool and not having to worry about if TH or LC will be the thing to bring after a balance sweep.

 

I agree that removing all the options was not the answer, hence why I had changed my mind regarding “heavy heirloom weapons”

[Captain Idaho]

Wow, Sanguinary Guard and even Death Company getting power fists and other weapons, the decision for gutting Vanguard seems all the more bizarre.

[Guest Triszin]

1 minute ago, Captain Idaho said:

Wow, Sanguinary Guard and even Death Company getting power fists and other weapons, the decision for gutting Vanguard seems all the more bizarre.

dont look at the wolf index.

they get the VV treatment.

 

the index is absolutely terrible.

wolves are the worst army for 10th so far.

[Orange Knight]

1 minute ago, Triszin said:

dont look at the wolf index.

they get the VV treatment.

 

the index is absolutely terrible.

wolves are the worst army for 10th so far.

 

I'll have a look at them now. Would be unfortunate, but hopefully it's only a stop gap until they get a range refresh.

[NatBrannigan]

Wolf Guard, Thunderwolves AND Wulfen got the vanguard vet treatment, the index has absolutely gutted Wolves.

[Captain Idaho]

4 minutes ago, Triszin said:

dont look at the wolf index.

they get the VV treatment.

 

the index is absolutely terrible.

wolves are the worst army for 10th so far.

 

Ah no way, my regular opponent is a big fan and this'll be getting to him. 

[Guest Triszin]

wolves cant take apoths.

 

Wolf priests arent EVEN in the index.

 

 

 

 

[Medicinal Carrots]

10 minutes ago, Triszin said:

dont look at the wolf index.

they get the VV treatment.

 

the index is absolutely terrible.

wolves are the worst army for 10th so far.

They can still take a Gladius, so baseline they cannot be worse than codex marines.

[NatBrannigan]

Did PETA actually scare games Workshop and this is their cowardly way of removing Wolves as an army!? 

[Guest Triszin]

Just now, Medicinal Carrots said:

They can still take a Gladius, so baseline they cannot be worse than codex marines.

baseline they are worse.

they cannot take apoths.

[Captain Idaho]

Heirloom weapons for Thunderwolves and Wulfen... a Wuflen hammer is just the same as the other weapons bar an attack?

 

Apothecaries aren't that strong but yeah... odd options GW has taken. I don't understand their thought processes at all.

 

I think they've done all this in house and haven't sought any feedback or even proof readers. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Karhedron]

OK, so TWC, Wulfen and PAWG have all been taken round the back of Warhammer World and beaten to death with a nerf bat.

 

Moving on from that unpleasant shock, what do we have on the positive side?

 

Grey Hunters are still 5-10 (unlike Tactical Squads) and can now take 2 Special weapons regardless of size. Dual Grav Gun squads in Razorbacks look promising.

 

Several Characters are pretty boss, particularly Arjac. Epic Challenge for free every turn with full rerolls a 3D hammer.

 

Stormwolf doesn't get an Assault Ramp but at least units that disembark before it moves gain Advance + Charge for an average 19.5" threat range.

 

Wolf Tail Talisman for -1 Damage is nice since it apparently doesn't reduce it to a minimum of 1. Does this make him immune to 1D weapons? (Same question on Duty Eternal).

[Medicinal Carrots]

22 minutes ago, Triszin said:

baseline they are worse.

they cannot take apoths.

In a Gladius they can. The restrictions are only for their unique detachment. In a Gladius, they are identical to codex marines plus they have additional options. They cannot be worse than codex marines, only equivalent or better.

[Orange Knight]

26 minutes ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

In a Gladius they can. The restrictions are only for their unique detachment. In a Gladius, they are identical to codex marines plus they have additional options. They cannot be worse than codex marines, only equivalent or better.

 

So the sons of Russ are finally admitting that Guilliman's codex was right all along? 

 

 

[Karhedron]

44 minutes ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

In a Gladius they can. The restrictions are only for their unique detachment. In a Gladius, they are identical to codex marines plus they have additional options. They cannot be worse than codex marines, only equivalent or better.

 

You do appear to be correct. You cannot take an Apothecary in a "Sons of Russ" detachment but you can take an Apothecary with the SW keyword and SW-specific characters in a GSF. You can even take SW Tactical squads if you felt so inclined.

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed, in such a circumstance you could take an Apothecary and a Chaplain in SW lists, despite both not existing in a SW army.

 

I think most people want to use their most thematic rules though, so likely the standard Gladius will fall out of favour for SW fans.

[BrainFireBob]

3 hours ago, jaxom said:

 

 

When almost every list-building article for Space Marines starts with "get Vanguard Vets with Storm Shields and magnetize weapon options," there's something wrong in the design space. I do think the "heirloom weapons" overcompensated and changed my mind to agree that the inclusion of a heavy heirloom weapon for every 5 VV would have been okay. The Storm Shields are probably why the pistol options remained; who actually took pistols?

GW has never understood that mobility is key in their game over potential damage. This, IMO, was about overshadowing Bladeguard. They've always priced and acted as if a slow melee beatstick that everything can just shuffle away from was a desirable, game-winning force multiplier. 

[Shed Some Skin]

So I've noticed something and I'm not sure if I'm going crazy, but has anyone noticed the Hunter might actually be OK in 10th? 

 

They've changed the weapon rule from a damage bonus against aircraft specifically to anti-fly, and it has Devastating Wounds. So it hits basically any target on 2+ and then if it has fly, does D6+2 mortals on a 3+.

 

A LOT of things have Fly. 

 

Caveats on this (extremely non-exhaustive) list: it's possible some of these things don't have Fly in the final rules for 10th, but they all do in 9th. Also this is discounting availability of FNP and other damage mitigation which some of the tougher stuff may well have.

 

All the currently available Demon Primarchs. Bloodthirster and Lord of Change

 

All C'tan, Monoliths, The Silent King, Ghost/Doomsday Ark

 

Vertus Praetors

 

Inceptors, Land/Storm Speeders, any marine jump pack infantry like Death Company

 

Crisis suits and Stealth suits. Riptide and Ghost keel. Hammerhead, Devilfish, Skyray

 

Pretty much all Drukhari and Aeldari jetbikes and Vehicles

 

This is a huge range of targets it can just wallop with impunity. Yeah, I'm sure there's anti vehicle/anti monster guns that will do the job better vs some of these targets, but I doubt there's many units who can consistently land a solid number of mortals against this many targets across basically all factions.

 

I still wouldn't argue it's an auto include, but if the points value is low I think it could seriously pull it's weight in a lot of matchup. It's 110 points in 9th. I'm not sure there's going to be many things in that points range that can hit a Monolith for that many mortals a turn. If the points go up a fair bit it may well be a lot worse, but if it stays low... 

 

On the downside, it's single shot, and if it whiffs it just does nothing. Pretty low chance of whiffing, though. You can always spend a command reroll. 

 

I'm not sure I want to buy one just yet, it's a pretty pricey kit for what it is. But if anyone has one lying around they never use, it might be worth giving it a go and see if it's any good 

 

Might also be worth keeping an eye on how anti air units from other factions pan out. They've been pretty useless before, but anything else that gets anti-Fly with Devastating Wounds at a low points cost might be worth considering 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Shed Some Skin

[Tacitus]

23 hours ago, Kallas said:

Not sure why you think I think having one unit dominate the competitive design space is good. I don't.

 

I mean, this Index is a perfect example of why magnetising is important: GW swings wildly from update to update with how they balance things. The reason magnetisation has become so popular/mainstream is because GW keeps on swinging between nerfing the hell out of something and then buffing the hell out of something else; and then changes it up the next update!

 

Removing all options is not the answer.

That and not having to buy $800 worth of Gladiator Kits to get 3 of each.

[Kallas]

2 hours ago, Tacitus said:

$800 worth of Gladiator Kits to get 3 of each.

3 of each?! Black Templars can bring 6 of each in a Gladius Detachment! 

 

Because it's only in the Righteous Crusaders detachment  where you're prohibited from bringing regular Gladiators;, so since the Gladius doesn't prohibit the BT Gladiators, and they're separate datasheets, you can bring both, because GW doesn't think anything through 

[Marshal Reinhard]

I think anyone buying 6 gladiators expecting to be able to take all of them through the entirety of 10th will have a rude awakening as soon as an errata is released...

 

don't let obvious mistakes that are not long for the world influence purchasing decisions