Dark Angels Index

[Tacitus]

51 minutes ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

So are they going to retcon how Dark Angel battle companies have a company veteran squad?   

Company Vets = Command Squad?  My 9th Supplement doesn't have them either. 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Tacitus

[Helias_Tancred]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

Company Vets = Command Squad?  My 9th Supplement doesn't have them either. 

 

 

Thats because they put them in the 9th edition Space Marine Codex page 151, opening up every marine chapter to full squads (5 man) of company vets .. even though previously for all chapters except Dark Angels, there were only 2 company vets in the command squad, never as a stand-alone company vets squad (in addition to a command squad) as they were in Dark Angel battle companies. I miss that. Something cool and unique among the Dark Angels. 

[Marshal Mittens]

3 hours ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

 

So are they going to retcon how Dark Angel battle companies have a company veteran squad?

 

 

 

Did the last codex have a break down of company structure for the DA? I can't recall. I mean, outside of 1st Company DW, 2nd Company RW, etc. 

[G8Keeper]

I'm interested how Vanguard and Sternguard Veteran squads will be incorporated into the chapter organisation. Who knows, maybe they'll replace company vets?

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

5 hours ago, ValourousHeart said:

I swear I have this conversation with someone every time this rule pops up in the rules.  It never ends up working that way.

 

I'm aware that it's a stupid thing to do. So instead of dismissing it like that can you just tell me if I missed something in the core rules or if you think (like me) that this is going to be addressed in the certainly upcoming errata as it happened before?

 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Interesting index. Seems DA got quite alright overall! 

[Captain Idaho]

So if Dark Angels super Knight Terminators are minus 1 damage and can use a Strategum for -2 damage (total), they're not just immune to a lot of weapons and very resistant to many others, they're also immune to Mortal Wounds...

 

Painfully clear GW needs to employ a proof reader and perhaps restart their playtesters scheme.

[Interrogator Stobz]

@Captain Idaho

Hell no! We don't need proof-readers nor play-testers, nor FAQs and editing; the rules are the best ever, GeeDub said so. 

 

Simplified not simple, so simply speaking you simply cannot damage our Deathwing Knights. 

 

 

[TrawlingCleaner]

I've seen this in a few places but Damage Reduction doesn't work on Devastating Wounds as far as I can tell?

You roll a Crit Wound and the attack sequence ends so there's no damage to allocate or reduce?

 

If you're -2DMG into 1DMG weapons, do you heal? More importantly, if you play -1DMG RAW, do you have any friends left?

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

Mortal Wounds still inflict damage, emphasis mine:

 

 

Cor, technically if you are -1 damage, then yes that should heal the unit 

 

Brilliant.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Here's a fix:  One page Rules.

The DA are good without being broken. 

 

 

I won't play a broken pay to win army, it doesn't feel right.

I have a mate creating a new DA army to chase the meta right now  

As a reflective personality I simply cannot play him, it brings out my savage side and is bad for my mental health.

 

I won't play those units until they are fair, even if I've already bought them all.

The 28, yes 28, DA units that I have paid for and painted, which are now going to Legends certainly won't be OP anymore... as if they were. 

 

That doesn't leave much left to choose from Considering the absolute hot mess which 10th is very rapidly becoming. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[TrawlingCleaner]

1 minute ago, Captain Idaho said:

Mortal Wounds still inflict damage, emphasis mine:

 

 

 

You've highlighted the bit that enforces my point

As it was in 9th, each mortal wound is 1 point of damage that you apply individually. 3MW is 1 point of damage, 1 point of damage, 1 point of damage and not 3 damage as a normal weapon is

9th for context was:

Spoiler

 

[Captain Idaho]

27 minutes ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

 

You've highlighted the bit that enforces my point

As it was in 9th, each mortal wound is 1 point of damage that you apply individually. 3MW is 1 point of damage, 1 point of damage, 1 point of damage and not 3 damage as a normal weapon is

9th for context was:

  Hide contents

 

 

Ah sorry I misread your point? I was under the impression we were just talking about 1 damage Mortal Wounds and totally forgot about doing more than one at a time (thinking of Devastating Hits on D1 weapons like Assault Cannons etc).

 

But it does say just under my highlighted part that each Mortal wound is applied 1 at a time.

[TrawlingCleaner]

5 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Ah sorry I misread your point? I was under the impression we were just talking about 1 damage Mortal Wounds and totally forgot about doing more than one at a time (thinking of Devastating Hits on D1 weapons like Assault Cannons etc).

 

But it does say just under my highlighted part that each Mortal wound is applied 1 at a time.

 

It's a toofer

To lay it out:

1) Devastating Wounds is triggered and the attack sequence ends. It skips the Allocate Attack and Saving Throw steps and goes straight to the Inflict Damage step. You've skipped the Allocate Attack Step so you don't allocate the attack to a model with -1DMG

2) The damage of the weapon is converted into Mortal Wounds. Each Mortal Wound is allocated individually.

 

At no point can you reduce the damage of the attack

[Karhedron]

Even without untouchable DWKs, the Dark Angels are looking really strong, definitely the best of the divergent Chapters and possibly better than vanilla too.

 

Poor Space Wolves are wondering what they did to deserve this and when their Primarch will come back.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Karhedron

[FerociousBeast]

There’s one thing in the DA index I’ve never seen before in this game (been around since 3rd).

 

Due to 10th retiring the old model profile, you have to have a melee weapon to make a melee attack. I haven’t seen any rule in the rule book about default attacks, and I’m not sure how they’d be done since models don’t have strength anymore. 
 

So, if you replace the DW Strike Master’s wargear with a storm shield and storm bolter, he no longer has a melee weapon and can’t attack in the Fight phase.

 

I’ve never seen that before. Every other edition has had the assumption of some default combat knife or sticks and stones or something that you use with your profile’s base strength and attacks. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by FerociousBeast

[Interrogator Stobz]

That's hilarious, just add it to the list.

10th is already worse than 9th and it hasn't even started yet.

[Interrogator Stobz]

7 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

 

It's a toofer

To lay it out:

1) Devastating Wounds is triggered and the attack sequence ends. It skips the Allocate Attack and Saving Throw steps and goes straight to the Inflict Damage step. You've skipped the Allocate Attack Step so you don't allocate the attack to a model with -1DMG

2) The damage of the weapon is converted into Mortal Wounds. Each Mortal Wound is allocated individually.

 

At no point can you reduce the damage of the attack

 

Thanks for the explanation Brother.

MWs are still the bane of the game

and things like Redemptors which have 18(?) Devastating Wounds shots will still kill DWKs?

[FarFromSam]

I reeeeeeeally wish we'd see some points already. 

 

Or at least a sample 2000 point list to get an idea of model count

Edited June 13, 2023 by farfromsam

[m_r_parker]

7 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

 

It's a toofer

To lay it out:

1) Devastating Wounds is triggered and the attack sequence ends. It skips the Allocate Attack and Saving Throw steps and goes straight to the Inflict Damage step. You've skipped the Allocate Attack Step so you don't allocate the attack to a model with -1DMG

2) The damage of the weapon is converted into Mortal Wounds. Each Mortal Wound is allocated individually.

 

At no point can you reduce the damage of the attack

 

It's a fantastic way to get around Damage Reduction, provided you can get enough weapons with this rule.

Because I get bored, and thoughts like this bore through my brain, I looked through the generic Space Marine data sheets (I figured they had the most) to see which have Devastating Wounds (DW) weapons and abilities:

• "Finest Hour" - Once per battle, for one fight phase can add 3 to Attacks on all Melee weapons and gain DW (Primaris Captain, Captain)
• "Catechism of Fire" - Each time model shoots, select an enemy unit within 12" and visible, ranged weapons from this unit targeting enemy unit gain DW (Chaplain on Bike only)
• "Mark the Target" - Remain stationary, ranged weapons gain DW (Eliminators only)

 

• Combi Weapon
• Thunder Hammer
• Neo-Volkite Pistol (Bladeguard Lieutenant, Bladeguard)
• Smite - focussed (Librarians)
• Sternguard Bolt Pistol (Sternguard only)
• Sternguard Bolt Rifle (Sternguard only)
• Sternguard Heavy Bolter (Sternguard only)
• Executioner Relic Blade (Judiciar only)
• Assault Cannon / Twin-linked Assault Cannon
• Reaper Autocannon (Relic Terminators only)
• Volkite Charger (Relic Terminators only)
• Kheres-Pattern Assault Cannon (Contemptor Dreadnought only)
• Onslaught Gatling Cannon / Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon
• Skyspear Missile Launcher (Hunter only)

Barring 3 or 4 generic weapons, everything else is pretty specialised to certain units. So unless you build based on Eliminators, Sternguard and as many Assault Cannons as you can fit in, you're left with factoring in as much D2+ ranged weaponry you can and try to get through based on volume of fire. I'm thinking Inceptors with Assault Bolters (for numbers of shots through Sustained Fire 2 and Twin Linked) or Plasma Exterminators are a good shout. 

[m_r_parker]

22 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

 

Thanks for the explanation Brother.

MWs are still the bane of the game

and things like Redemptors which have 18(?) Devastating Wounds shots will still kill DWKs?

 

If you're basing Redemptor Dreads as being "DWK Killers" because of the combo of Onslaught and Heavy Onslaught Cannon, meh....

You need to both hit and roll a natural 6 on a Wound roll to activate a DW. 12 + 6 shots per turn hitting on a 3+ with a 6 To Wound equates to 2 DW's per shooting phase per Redemptor, at a single Damage per shot. The remainder of the shots are irrelevant, D1 shots will be negated by the Inner Circle rule. So you would need 2 Redemptors both equipped with Heavy and regular Onslaught Cannons focus firing on a DWK unit to statistically do enough damage to kill a single Deathwing Knight...

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

1 hour ago, m_r_parker said:

 

If you're basing Redemptor Dreads as being "DWK Killers" because of the combo of Onslaught and Heavy Onslaught Cannon, meh....

You need to both hit and roll a natural 6 on a Wound roll to activate a DW. 12 + 6 shots per turn hitting on a 3+ with a 6 To Wound equates to 2 DW's per shooting phase per Redemptor, at a single Damage per shot. The remainder of the shots are irrelevant, D1 shots will be negated by the Inner Circle rule. So you would need 2 Redemptors both equipped with Heavy and regular Onslaught Cannons focus firing on a DWK unit to statistically do enough damage to kill a single Deathwing Knight...

 

You're forgetting fishing for 6s via Oath of Moment, which can also re-roll successful wounds that don't come up 6, if you're so inclined.

In addition, the "small" gatling has 8 shots, for a total of 20.

I saw the Lion melt to a Redemptor in a single turn today in a BatRep.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Cpt. Bannockburn

[twopounder]

On 6/12/2023 at 1:37 PM, Gorechilde said:

 

I seem to recall Thousand Sons cult marines  being immune to every weapon below strength 5 back in 3rd and 4th Editions. Possibly 5th too.

 

It was 3rd edition, changing to getting an additional wound instead in later editions. This was only rubric marines (anything that wasn't a sorcerer but had a mark of tzeentch). I believe the 1st 3rd edition codex gave them a 4++, but its been so long that I don't recall if that was 1st 3rd or the 4th edition book.

 

Its funny people are panicking about this, when it was a core mechanic prior to 8th. S3 couldn't wound T7+, S4 couldn't wound T8+, etc. Wraithlords could only be wounded by heavy bolters or better (they were s5). This made army composition very important. Vehicles were the same. S3 couldn't hurt any vehicles in the game while s4 needed a 6 on the back of most vehicles to shave a hull point. Missiles could only damage most vehicles on a 5+ or 6+, though a penetrating roll could crater a vehicle in one hit.

 

 This may be GW trying to shoehorn the concept of damage exemption back into the game and once again require dedicated weapon types to take out certain elite units. I predicted that GW would need to keep increasing the wounds of models like terminators because of how bad the current rules are back in 8th. Looks like they were tired of doing that and are now trying to reduce the damage profile, which again, completely defeats the purpose of re-introducing damage to weapon profiles. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by twopounder

[StormLion]

Am I miss reading or does the Lion not benefit from his own auras? I was re-reading them and RAW it seems like only the units within 6" get the benefit.

 

In other words MWs are going to be how you kill him.

[m_r_parker]

1 hour ago, Cpt. Bannockburn said:

 

You're forgetting fishing for 6s via Oath of Moment, which can also re-roll successful wounds that don't come up 6, if you're so inclined.

In addition, the "small" gatling has 8 shots, for a total of 20.

I saw the Lion melt to a Redemptor in a single turn today in a BatRep.

 

20 * (8/9) * (11/36) = 20 * (22/81)  ~ 5.43 DW's per Redemptor per shooting phase, so 1 Deathwing Knight dead and another wound and a half on another model. Definitely better, but it's still going to take two Redemptors roughly two turns of shooting to wipe out a single 5-man DWK unit with the help of Oath of Moment. 

 

You got a link to that BatRep? Would like to see how that played out.