Black Templars Index

[SkimaskMohawk]

Had another game after the eldar left me in the ICU (figuratively).

 

Tweaked my list once again, and really feel like I'm dialing it in, though there's still a couple of tweaks I'd like to make:

 

Spoiler

Righteous Crusaders

- primaris techmarine w/witchseeker 

 

- 5x intercessors w/power fist and grenade launcher 

- 5x intercessors w/power fist and grenade launcher 

 

- redemptor w/ plasma, onslaught, stormbolters, Icarus

- redemptor w/ plasma, onslaught, stormbolters, icarus

 

- 3x eliminators w/ lasfusils 

- 3x eliminators w/ lasfusils 

 

- 3x inceptors w/ bolters

 

- 6x eradicators w/ 2 multimeltas 

 

- BT repulsor w/ twin las, hog, multimelta 

 

- BT executioner w/ heavy laser, Icarus pod, multimelta

- BT executioner w/ heavy laser, Icarus pod, multimelta 

 

- Vindicare

 

My opponent took marines, so it was my first time playing into oath of moment and the gladius combos (like usual I might be missing some details):

 

Spoiler

Gladius

- primaris librarian w/bolter discipline

 

- tor garradon

 

- 5x intercessors w/power fist and grenade launcher 

- 5x intercessors w/power fist and grenade launcher 

 

- 5x infiltrators w/ FNP

 

- 10 desolators w/ superkrak

 

- 6x eradicators w/ 2 multimeltas

 

- 5x scout snipers 

 

- whirlwind

- whirlwind 

 

- redemptor w/ plasma, onslaught, stormbolters, Icarus

- redemptor w/ plasma, onslaught, stormbolters, icarus

 

-ballistus

 

We played sweeping engagement, with scorched earth and vox static, on one of the new WTC layouts to go with the mission (this is a different mission, but it gives a general idea of the line of sight and movement restrictions):

Spoiler

 

In addition to the window rules, the foot print also counts as part of the ruin, causing even more line of sight blocking. I picked fixed objectives like always, going for bring it down and Engage, like always. He went for tactical.

 

I was definitely worried about my ranged output and movement, especially as my opponent had played 3 games at a mini tournament on the weekend using these layouts. With the same list. Where he won. 

 

Pregame stuff: I put the inceptors in deepstrike and the eradicators in the repulsor; he put the Libby with the desos, garradon with the eradicators, and then reserved the latter and the scouts. 

 

Deployment: I put the tanks close to the middle of the board where they might have some los protection from the outflanking eradicators, dreads further towards the edges and infiltrated the eliminators and vindicare to threaten the no man's objectives; the vehicles all had cover, but I left them exposed to los to maybe bait the desos. He had the desos behind a building to the middle and tried to have all the dreads hiding out of los using the angles of the footprints; his artillery castled on his backfield and his infiltrators went up close to the middle objective.

 

For the first time since my first game, I got the first turn. Unfortunately for him, between the large footprints of the repulsors and the move+disembark, I was able to get los on both his redemptors and was able to kill them and a guy from his infiltrators on turn 1. For reasons unknown, he didn't use either adaptive strategy or Dev doctrine at the start of his turn*, and oathed the repulsor. He moved out the desos and targeted the repulsor with the kraks and the intercessors on my close midfield with the indirect; I used armour of contempt and smoke on the repulsor. My reasoning was that between the -1 to hit and 3+ save he would need to commit the rest of his quality weapons and leave me ahead**; he did 6 wounds, I failed 4 saves for 16 damage, and then I failed 16 fnps lol. Similarily, I failed every FNP on the intercessors, allowing him to just pick them up. The rest of his shooting didn't do too much: he killed a few of my backfield intercessors with the whirlwinds, did 6 wounds to a redemptors with the ballistus. He charged the the eradicators with the infiltrators to tie them up, and one unit of eliminators with intercessors and killed them. I forget which tactical objectives he had, but wasn't able to complete either on turn 1.

 

My turn 2 I oathed the desos and positioned stuff to try and shoot them for the most part, moving one of my flank redemptors to try and get an angle on them and the ballistus, and be in range to charge the intercessors; I brought my inceptors down on his backfield objective to help with the desos and maybe flip that. I ended up unloading into the desos with the primaris techmarine (did 4 mortals from the enhancement, yay!), Eliminators (got a 6 to wound, but still rolled a 2, boo!), Vindicare, and an executioner; they killed everything but the librarian. The other executioner killed the intercessors that had fought my eliminators and put a bunch of wounds on the ballistus, which got chipped down and finished off by a redemptor and inceptors.

 

And the game got called there. He was going into turn 2 with no VPs and I had gotten 25; even if he had killed the vindicare with scout snipers and my redemptor and executioner with garradon and crew, I'd still be very far ahead on primary scoring and would be able to burn both outflanking units off the table. He definitely screwed up with his hiding of dreads, though it's hard to imagine all the angles post-move, but also there was the fact that his list just doesn't match into the heavy skew that I have very well. I thought maybe putting the infiltrators up instead of screening his backfield was a mistake as well.

 

So ya, the list feels really competent; the only game where I felt like I had no control was pre-nerf eldar, and that is what it is. Im going to split my eradicators into 2 separate units, as there's literally no downsides as a non bodyguard unit, but I was also considering dropping one of the intercessor units and scrounging some points for infiltrators; stick the backfield with intercessors and then hold it with infiltrators and really deter shooting units. Unfortunately I can't combo them with a Phobos librarian in Crusaders to make them immune to most shooting, but they should be a terrible target regardless.

 

*He told me he thought the desos would be enough to kill the repulsor without going full combo, and in this game he certainly was right.

 

**We checked the math after my repulsor died to just the desos, and his un-Deved unit should have only averaged 5 damage through all the saves. Even with full effect bolter discipline, the repulsor should have only taken 6.62 (so 7) damage. 

[Sea Creature]

“Eadicators in the repulsor…”

 

The murder bus!!

[SkimaskMohawk]

So this'll be the last game I post here before I refresh my old BT project thread and add game experiences over there instead. 

 

I decided to give Gladius a shot over Righteous crusaders; dropped the dreads, techmarine, vindicare, and inceptors and 3 eradicators for 20 PCS, 5 sword bros, helbrecht, grimaldus, 5 scout snipers, infiltrators....and a Phobos librarian lol. The repulsors all also got downgraded to non BT versions (though an executioner could have remained as one with my spare points).

 

My opponents list (as best I can):

 

Spoiler

Abaddon 

 

Cypher

 

10x termies with combis, reapers, and various fists 

 

10x possessed

 

Forgefiend with plasma

 

10 cultists with guns

 

10 cultists with guns

 

4 obliterators

 

4 obliterators

 

Everything was undivided

 

 

We did crucible of battle, with priority targets and secret Intel. With the flexibility of Gladius and the boost from secret Intel I decided to go tactical objectives for the first time. We were playing on the wtc layout. He put the oblits in deepstrike.

 

It's a bit harder to describe the game due to tactical objectives.

 

I went first, prayed up the 5+ FNP on grimaldus and the blob and pushed onto one of the no man's land objectives with 2 executioners and the eradicators. I oathed the forgefiend down and killed a possessed and that was about it, but I scored 5vp bring it down and 5vp extend battle lines. His turn he shot one eliminator unit on the center objective, charged my scouts and helbrecht repulsor close to the middle with the possessed, and charged the eradicators and executioner with the termi blob. He killed all the infantry, but the unwieldy nature of the large bases and melee rules meant he only did 4 damage to each vehicle. I used armour of contempt on the possessed repulsor when he'd only be doing mortals and got the cost increased for my trouble. He didn't score anything from area denial or secure no man's land.

 

My turn 2 had me start trying to iron out my command phase stuff. Should I go tactical and fallback my tanks? Should I go assault doctrine to get some extra juice out of Honour the chapter? Should I instead go greedy with grimaldus' power for the -1 to offset potential CSM AoC? In the end, I went tactical doctrine, bonus AP on grimaldus, oath on the terminators, no adaptive strategy on anyone. I disembarked and moved up and unloaded, killing 6 terminators and two more possessed, and charged. I opted to go with the sword bros and helbrecht first, figuring a few terminators and Abe would have a smaller chance of one rounding the crusaders than the possessed to the sword bros. Used honour the chapter and +1 damage on the bros, and even forgetting helbrechts mortals i wiped them right off no problem. But then I found out Abaddons damage output, because he used interrupt and chaos undivided full rerolls, and killed 13 models (including the servitors) just from him, the terminators killing another 4; maybe i should have gone with that FNP lol. I was only able to kill 2 terminators back due to invuls with my remaining  handful. I scored my secondaries again. He brought 4 oblits in and did a slaanesh Strat to recharge with Abe, killing a repulsor and the crusaders but it was starting to be pretty over.

 

The mission allowed me to max out the progressive points by only holding 2, while the only objective he scored was his sticky one in the back. I kept on getting really easy tactical objectives as well, with the only turn that i got less than 10 was from scoring defend stronghold which gave me 8. We slugged it out until turn 4, where I used assault doctrine and zoomed helbrecht from about centerfield over to one of the other no man's land objectives to 9" charge Abaddon with the cp reroll, while surviving obliterator Overwatch.

 

So kinda cloding thoughts:

 

Lots of bases for melee is really clunky and is hard to apply. We were talking about it after and you need the big base from helbrecht or Abe to lead the charge, with the rest of your guys attacking through them to really maximise attacks. 

 

Helbrecht kinda ruins a lot of units with the sword bros, but needing honour the chapter is still something that i wish i didn't need. Cypher made it easy by making AoC worth 2cp, but usually i really like to have 2 for AoC and Smoke. 

 

The crusaders are a pretty big distraction unit, but i was dreading blasts just gobbling the unit up, and still do.

 

I really missed the multimeltas. There was a solid 3 or 4 times that having them would have really helped out.

 

Librarian and infiltrators are obnoxious; there isn't no Gladius list without them lol. 

 

Doctrines really saved my bacon this game, while the vows wouldn't have really mattered too much (maybe, depends on high rolling Abaddons unit and the possessed). 

 

 

 

 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

A Phobos Librarian?

 

Oh, that's a paddlin.

[Kastor Krieg]

9 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

A Phobos Librarian? Oh, that's a paddlin.

I would kindly refer you, Frater: 

That's a Primaris Reclusiarch in Phobos Armour ;)

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Pretending a filthy witch is actually a member of our blessed reclusiam?

 

Oh you better believe that's a paddlin!

[Ktaniel]

im the only one who hate the new unit composition of the 10th? i wonder why cant we cant take a 10 man full initiates primaris to chop some eretics 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Just now, Ktaniel said:

im the only one who hate the new unit composition of the 10th? i wonder why cant we cant take a 10 man full initiates primaris to chop some eretics 

 

Well, a) you can, you just have to play them as assault intercessors.

 

And b) because GW aligns the unit compositions to the boxes.

 

If you want to buy two PCS boxes to play ten initiates as one squad, so they look the part, you absolutely can do that, you just have to use the datasheet for assault intercessors. But lore wise, they would just be a crusader squad.

[SkimaskMohawk]

6 hours ago, Kastor Krieg said:

I would kindly refer you, Frater: 

That's a Primaris Reclusiarch in Phobos Armour ;)

 

5 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

Pretending a filthy witch is actually a member of our blessed reclusiam?

 

Oh you better believe that's a paddlin!

 

I'm going to fully embrace the heresy with black penitent robes, black shoulder pad, chain iconography and maybe a bunch of script instead of any templar cross. Unfortunately the mini itself isn't really conducive to adding chains anywhere other than the book.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I agree, Skimask. There's no Psychic phase, therefore there's actually no psychic going on. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Somewhere, brother @Firepower is spinning in his grave.

 

To the Paddleum!

[Kastor Krieg]

On 7/22/2023 at 6:28 PM, Sword Brother Adelard said:

To the Paddleum!

This sounds like heretic visions. You see a witch where a Reclusiarch stands, Frater. First Founders would have put you through the Pain Glove at the very least.

Also, a link to @Sir Clausel's thread. This is the glory I've meant!

[Kilamandaros]

The fact BT players are finding themselves forced to play Gladius with librarians in 10th to try and be competitive is really disheartening for the faction this edition. Seems obvious marines are nowhere near as strong as people thought they would be overall, hanging around a 45% win rate at tournaments with some like Wolves and Bangels much lower.

 

Hopefully GW will start seeing the abomination that is BT lists with librarians and do something about it.

[Sir Clausel]

Yeah and not force us to pay for multimeltas we dont want :p

[SkimaskMohawk]

12 hours ago, Kilamandaros said:

The fact BT players are finding themselves forced to play Gladius with librarians in 10th to try and be competitive is really disheartening for the faction this edition. Seems obvious marines are nowhere near as strong as people thought they would be overall, hanging around a 45% win rate at tournaments with some like Wolves and Bangels much lower.

 

Hopefully GW will start seeing the abomination that is BT lists with librarians and do something about it.

 

9 hours ago, Sir Clausel said:

Yeah and not force us to pay for multimeltas we dont want :p

 

I personally didn't feel forced to play gladius to win games, i just wanted to try something different. I also super missed my multi meltas in the one game I didn't take them. 

 

If you look at the tournament data, you'll also find that a minority of factions even hit the 50% win rate, because the state of the top tier factions. The predictions were definitely off, but they were off across the board on just how strong the best factions were and how much they crowd out everyone else. That post-nerf eldar winrate of 71% against everyone else shows just what's up.

[Lork]

Lightning claws have been added to the Sword Brethren index in today's update.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/CzAmLJFIywVaxanl.pdf

 

Among other things, but that was the first thing I noticed glancing at the index.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/YRK9ZpspblzJHLb7.pdf

Edited July 26, 2023 by DrGlove

[SkimaskMohawk]

Helbrecht and the marshal, both have their proper generic keywords. Means you can legally do helbrecht and Lt/castellan combo.

 

On the marine side, not much really changed; a bunch of units got their integrated CCW (but are also going legends, so....you know) and the ballistus and redemptor got the standalone dreadnought keyword, allowing you to jam them into storm ravens of you really want to.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Crusaders still have two pistols too...

[Blade of Sigismund]

Can hellbrecht join bladeguard yet?

[Kilamandaros]

11 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

Crusaders still have two pistols too...

 

Can you fire both in/out of combat?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah, if you have just pistols, you can fire with all of your pistols. (Think of characters like Cypher and the GSC gunslinger)

If you have a pistol and a non-pistol, you can only fire one.

[Kastor Krieg]

10 hours ago, Blade of Sigismund said:

Can hellbrecht join bladeguard yet?

No and no other Chapter Master than Calgar can.

[9x19 Parabellum]

So played my first game against Necrons tonight.  Eeked out a 69-61 win.  Boy that is one frustrating faction to play against.

 

I'm a little incredulous at the Lychguard brick.  Frankly, I think it's a bunch of horse-manure.  19 Points a model gets you a T5, 3+/4++, 2W chunky boi.

If they have a noble, you are at -1 to wound (melee and ranged)

If they have Chronomancer, you are at -1 to hit (melee and ranged)

The Chronomancer has 2 derpy little Thralls running around soaking damage with it's 4+++

 

The guy I played had Overlord with Rez Orb, Chronomancer with 2 Thralls, and a unit of 5 Lychguard.  That's all-in of 270 points for an absolutely unkillable unit.

The rez orb lets you rez in your own command phase, and the Overlord makes free use of a stratagem that allows for rezzing after your shoot/fight phase.  It then procs off the Canoptek reanimator, so 2d3+1 wounds get reanimated.

 

So there's two things I'm bitching at.

 

1. The Lychguard are just not valued properly at 19 ppm.  They are better than a Space Marine in just about every way except for movement but at the same price-point.  They also benefit from not being generalists....they are highly specialized (ie, tank damage) and they do it like champs.  And they really aren't even slow because without shooting, turn 1 they will advance, and they also benefit from a Chronomancer synergy which allows them to make a normal move after shooting.   Taken with one of their Stratagems, on turn 1 they can have 5" move + advance (4") + another 5" move...so 14" move. Pretty good for a "slow" unit. They won't be able to charge that turn, but they are perfectly setup for a turn 2 charge. 

 

2. The combination of Resurrection synergies is a bit much.  So, I get some things needed to change from 9th edition (particularly for multi-wound models), but being able to proc Resurrection Protocols THREE times on my turn: once in my command phase, once at end of shooting, and once at end of close combat is a bit much.  If you don't wipe this unit out in one go, they are all coming back.  I was able to get SUPER good rolls on a unit of Crusader Squad and 5 man Jump Pack squad into them on my turn which was able to kill everyone but the Overlord and the Cryptek, or else I would have been hosed  (mortal wounds from Jump Packs, which trigger at end of charge phase, don't allow him to use his Protocol of Undying Legion strat). Luckily, I hit for 4 MW's.  I then activated my PCS with Castellan, along with Fervent Acclimation for Sustained Hits, and, combined with Oath of Moment, I literally killed his unit (not the characters) to the wound, or else he would have rezzed again and brought ~ 3 models back at end of fight phase, and another 3 back at the beginning of his command phase. 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya necrons are frustrating :cuss: and require "overkill". It's even better when those cryptothralls with 4+ FNP get rezzed over and over again. Kinda asks for a callidus to crank the cost of that stratagem.

[Medjugorje]

if you take a Technomancer they have 5+++ instead of -1 to hit.  they can have -1 to hit and treated as in cover when the noble takes an special enhancement...

Necrons can get even worse^^

Edited July 29, 2023 by Medjugorje