Death Guard Index

[Dr. Clock]

2 hours ago, Plague _Lord said:

Plague Marines are even better in a CSM army than a DG army... think about that for a moment.

How? They lose Contagions, don't get Dark Pacts (they do not gain Heretic Astartes - I stand corrected on that). They also won't be joined by any of their bespoke characters... So yeah, they might be a fun include, but they'll have low synergy potential.

 

2 hours ago, Plague _Lord said:

It looks like regular CSM with MoN on every unit will be more like DG than actual DG.

Except that they'll be T4?

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Dr. Clock

[Quantum]

No Gellerpox infected units? A shame, those were some nice models that would not be out of place in the Death Guard faction.

[Medicinal Carrots]

55 minutes ago, Dr. Clock said:

How? They lose Contagions, don't get Dark Pacts (they do not gain Heretic Astartes). They also won't be joined by any of their bespoke characters... So yeah, they might be a fun include, but they'll have very low synergy potential.

Plague Marines in a CSM detachment do get Heretic Astartes. They don't get Dark Pacts, though after a cursory search through the core rules, I don't think it's clear how an attached leader with Dark Pacts would work. I would think that attaching a Dark Pacts leader would still let it be used for the attached unit, and apply to the whole unit since it's a unit wide ability and leaders would be much worse in general if their abilities that didn't specify working while attached shut off, but it's gonna need an FAQ.

[Cryptix]

9 minutes ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

Plague Marines in a CSM detachment do get Heretic Astartes. They don't get Dark Pacts, though after a cursory search through the core rules, I don't think it's clear how an attached leader with Dark Pacts would work. I would think that attaching a Dark Pacts leader would still let it be used for the attached unit, and apply to the whole unit since it's a unit wide ability and leaders would be much worse in general if their abilities that didn't specify working while attached shut off, but it's gonna need an FAQ.

It won't matter anyway since no leader can attach to the "mercenary" cult units, so they'd just get stratagems.

[Medicinal Carrots]

3 minutes ago, Cryptix said:

It won't matter anyway since no leader can attach to the "mercenary" cult units, so they'd just get stratagems.

D'oh! I completely missed that part making the whole question moot.

[Special Officer Doofy]

8 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

With a Helbrute or two to reach out and de-buff enemy T, S8/9 gets alot more interesting for hunting big things, especially transports

 

Resilience / healing / resurrect benefit options in the index:

 

3/6 Stratagems (-1 Dmg in melee, heal d3/3, Stealth)

 

FnP 6" Aura (Daemon Prince)

 

-1 to hit in melee (Typhus)

 

-1 Dmg in melee (Terminator Sorceror)

 

-1 to wound in melee (plaguecaster)

 

Resurrect 1 plague marine per turn (plague surgeon)

 

So that's 5 resilience abilities out of 14 Characters, or basically a third of the options. 

 

Just so we're on the same page with 'how much resilience is in there'. Some may feel that these buffs are not as broad or effective as they'd like; I'd remind us all that T5/6 on marines/termies is already a substantial benefit, and adding a tonne of buffs to that baseline can quickly equate to imbalance.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah it's not like marines have a 3W T6 battle line Gravis heavy intercessor that can get a FnP as a faction bonus.... Oh, wait a sec...

 

Having to use strats and characters that are limited in scope and cost CP and points and only target one unit does NOT make up for faction wide reduction on every unit, as much as you want it to.

[Nephaston]

Yeah, now that we have the full Index we can claim that, unit for unit, DG are not as resilient on average.

 

Still have to wait if that remains true point for point. Power Armour Horde anyone? Then again, knowing GW they just might be completely overcosted.

[spessmarine]

Can't really call that resurrect of the Plague Surgeon special since it seems all the apothecaries found Reanimation Protocols in their pocket.

Like how Grey Knights interceptors yoinked Battle Focus, lots of comedy everywhere.

 

[Plague _Lord]

14 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

How? They lose Contagions, don't get Dark Pacts (they do not gain Heretic Astartes - I stand corrected on that). They also won't be joined by any of their bespoke characters... So yeah, they might be a fun include, but they'll have low synergy potential.

 

Except that they'll be T4?

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

T5 is irrelevant. This index is straight up trash and you know it. It truely feels like an intern wrote it on their first day. We lose not only a lot of flavour, but also a lot of competitiveness. 

 

Why should blood angels, dark angels, black templars or world eaters actually be harder to kill than plague marines? It makes 0 sense lorewise. 

 

GW has dropped the ball on nurgle hard. 

[Dr. Clock]

13 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

does NOT make up for faction wide reduction on every unit, as much as you want it to.

Brother, I play AdMech if you want to talk about faction-wide reductions. I don't claim that losing army-wide -1 damage isn't a 'negative change', just that it's a warranted change if you take the pretty much game-wide reduction in AP and equalizing of heavy/special options into account. Dmg 2 weapons are basically the only ones seriously affected by retaining -1 Dmg, and that extra damage is a huge factor in making heavy bolters, shuriken cannons, power-fists and the like any good at all. -1 Dmg on a T6 2+/4++ 3w terminator before any buffs are applied would balloon terminator prices so much that you'd be down at Custodes numbers, or the army would be abusive.

 

So yes, like other factions you actually have to build in character support to reach the supreme heights of tankiness. That's how flavour is happening this edition, it appears. Well, that and every unit having its own special rule... Still, by all rights DG are spoiled for choice in support characters

 

3 hours ago, Plague _Lord said:

T5 is irrelevant.

Tell that to practically every bolter, heavy bolter, galvanic rifle, pulse rifle, chainsword, power-sword, heirloom weapon, power-fist, fleshborer, devourer, plasma gun, melta gun, multi-melta, mortar, flamer, heavy stubber, phosphor blaster, krak grenade, frag missile, autocannon, scatter-laser, shuriken catapult...

 

3 hours ago, Plague _Lord said:

This index is straight up trash and you know it.

Please don't tell me what I know and imply that I'm knowingly arguing from false pretenses.  

 

3 hours ago, Plague _Lord said:

We lose ... a lot of competitiveness. 

 

How do you know this without a single competitive event having been run in 10th? We don't even have known points on anything...

3 hours ago, Plague _Lord said:

Why should blood angels, dark angels, black templars or world eaters actually be harder to kill than plague marines? It makes 0 sense lorewise. 

 

I happen to agree that FnP should not be as widely available, or indeed available at all in most cases. It's a bad mechanic, especially on marines (not a big deal when it effectively is a unit's save, or the unit is 1w).

 

On the other side, I could argue that a t4 w/ 6+ FnP is also not in fact better than T5 w/ nothing in most of the important cases (see above).

 

Anyway - sorry you feel so slighted by this. I'm looking forward to playing into DG Friday, and I do hope that the points let them be abundant in addition to being tough and hitty.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

[Special Officer Doofy]

30 minutes ago, Dr. Clock said:

Brother, I play AdMech if you want to talk about faction-wide reductions. I don't claim that losing army-wide -1 damage isn't a 'negative change', just that it's a warranted change if you take the pretty much game-wide reduction in AP and equalizing of heavy/special options into account. Dmg 2 weapons are basically the only ones seriously affected by retaining -1 Dmg, and that extra damage is a huge factor in making heavy bolters, shuriken cannons, power-fists and the like any good at all. -1 Dmg on a T6 2+/4++ 3w terminator before any buffs are applied would balloon terminator prices so much that you'd be down at Custodes numbers, or the army would be abusive.

 

So yes, like other factions you actually have to build in character support to reach the supreme heights of tankiness. That's how flavour is happening this edition, it appears. Well, that and every unit having its own special rule... Still, by all rights DG are spoiled for choice in support characters

 

And my ACTUAL brother plays admech and he says DG got it worse. It's not a warranted change when the entire Gravis line and Terminator line gained toughness but DG power armor did not. Other army's get a FnP or damage reduction. So it's somehow not warranted for them, but is for DG? And for a few points more (currently) than a plaguemarine you can get a heavy intercessor with more movement, toughness, wounds, better faction abilities and a better base gun. Again, paying for characters to attach to one unit for a buff is not even in the same playing field as a faction wide buff that also effects vehicles.

 

Explain to me how DG reaches "the supreme heights of tankiness"? Because after seeing the units and rules, they can't even do it as well as Space marines...

[Dr. Clock]

10 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Other army's get a FnP or damage reduction. So it's somehow not warranted for them, but is for DG?

No, indeed, FnP should not be as common elsewhere as they've chosen to make it. That may feel like a problem with DG, but it's really a problem with marines. I am afeared of the era of Too Many Sang Priests. Feels silly that 4 infantry and 3 jump squads in a BA list can all have FnP 5+ AND assault buffs from single characters, but equally expect that jump priests at least may be Legends soon enough...

 

10 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

And for a few points more (currently) than a plaguemarine you can get a heavy intercessor with more movement, toughness, wounds, better faction abilities and better base gun.

Agreed - Points-dependent, heavy intercessors do look a bit overtuned. Should be T5 IMO.

 

10 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Explain to me how DG reaches "the supreme heights of tankiness"?

Admittedly this was hyperbole aimed at the idea that DG should 'just be' supremely tanky before adding any buffs in. Still:

 

10 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Other army's get a FnP or damage reduction.

Both are available in the DG Index, there's just some opportunity cost and limitations... just like everyone else.

 

I appreciate that you may just not like the options that exist, which is of course your right. I know it feels bad to have the distance between headcanon and game mechanics increased on a treasured faction. I feel poorly for DG mostly on account of them kind of missing the boat and then being tossed around too much during 9th, to the point that these sober, I'd say sensible index rules leave a bad taste for ye sons of Mortarion... Anyway - still appreciating the dialogue, despite our clear differences.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Dr. Clock

[Plaguecaster]

opportunity and cost lol yeah right 
We only get one damage reduction and that’s through a character who can only join terminators. There’s also an overpriced stratagem for one unit per turn and only in fight phase meanwhile entire units in other factions have it normally, have characters who can join more units or stratagems that do same for better. Don’t even get me started on feel no pain. It’s a pretty bitter taste in the mouth to get all the stuff we were known for taken away and given to literally everyone else and told by others who never even played our army “it’s not that bad just get used to it” “it’s a new edition it’s going to play different”. It’s character hammer now but don’t forget a lot of armies have decent access to precision hits so can just pick off our characters pretty easy especially since most of those have no inv save or any from of resilience to keep them alive 

 

rather hilarious you telling people who actually play DG we are still tanky and spoiled for choice

i would gladly trade our stupid “sticky objectives” which is somehow our unique and characterful army rule (even though literally every other army now has it in some form or way) for actual resilience. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Plaguecaster

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea idk templar can get an army wide 6+ FNP, can tech units into it for free with a captain/Strat it for +1 CP, get a 5+ FNP from tannhausers on Uphold, and get a 5+ from grimaldus. That's not counting all the ap and damage reduction, and other sources of FNP in the marine book.

 

Not sure how death guard reach that height.

 

7 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

So yes, like other factions you actually have to build in character support to reach the supreme heights of tankiness

 

[Plague _Lord]

1 hour ago, Plaguecaster said:

i would gladly trade our stupid “sticky objectives” which is somehow our unique and characterful army rule (even though literally every other army now has it in some form or way) for actual resilience. 

2nd edition in a row that our "special" army rule gets passed around to other armies.

Oh and we basicly dont have a detachment bonus in one of the missions :D

[Rain]

People of armies with a very obvious theme just want their army to do its “thing” the best, or at least really well. Especially if their army is a one trick pony. Dark Eldar should be fast, World Eaters should have scary melee, Death Guard should be resilient, Tau should have scary shooting, Eldar should be broken, etc.

 

It gives the players of said factions something to feel good about, and usually comes with severe drawbacks. World Eaters players have no great shooting options, Tau players have no great combat options, Eldar players have no friends, etc. we want the upside that comes with the downsides of our force, and the extremely slow DG definitely have downsides.

 

Playing a relatively 1 dimensional army that gets beaten in its 1 dimension by the generalist army par excellence is not a good feeling, or a sign of healthy game design.

[Nephaston]

It also doesn't help that marines basically avoid being locked to a single detachment in the index phase, which means even if Codex:DG comes with, let's say an Inexorable Detachment that features disgustingly resilient as a detachment rule, they'll have to wait for more than a year.

 

For contrast Space Wolves, who similarly suffer from below par Detachment can at least pivot to Gladius to wolf around there.

 

Come to think of it. The whole detachment deal in 10th is basically warscroll battalions for AoS, which I remember got occasional coverage in White Dwarf. That could help mitigate the wait for the codex for a bunch of factions. Does anyone remember if GW mentioned something in that regard?

[Special Officer Doofy]

6 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

I know it feels bad to have the distance between headcanon and game mechanics

 

Not head canon. Actual canon and previous edition rules... 

[Dr. Clock]

1 hour ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

Not head canon. Actual canon and previous edition rules...

Touché - corrected.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Plague _Lord]

Now we have points there is no defending this total trash of a codex.

 

Honestly these choices by GW are mind baffling. 

 

There is no way the designer didnt have hate for deathguard while writing this. 

[Plaguecaster]

Absolutely no surprise that after all the people saying "JuSt wait 4 tHe pOiNts" they are excatly as bad as I thought 

All of our characters are overpriced stuff like PBCs actually went up. To actually make plague marines even some what decent you have to fork out  over 300 - 400pts for characters and rhino.

 

[Ironjin90]

Hi there all beloved children of Nurgle.

 

I‘m a long time reader and also play for over 20 years now and this should be my first time writing here.

 

My take on the faction as it is now:

(( and sorry for spelling mistakes all over the place, my autocorrecting is currently on my first language but I try to improve in the future!))

 

• -1 dmg is available but only in melee and as a tax (100 points on sorcerer in Terminator armor / 2cp stratagem)

 

• No Protection besides Mortarion from decreasing movement is a bit problem.

3 Aeldari night spinner could prevent your army from even leaving your own deployment zone with indirect -2 move and cannon advance on a range 48 gun.

 

• Lack of anti-Tank ( I don‘t want to waste my lethal Hits Bolters on Tanks in hope of sixes on a for 2+ Save Enemy)

 

• Sticky opjective is good depending on your opponent and your own movement speed (which is terrible slow but could be ok with foetid-bloat drones). Sadly we lose this detatchment rule in one of the Missions.

 

• We have good flamers, nice anti-infantery weapons but Short ranged comined with a lack of Speed on the wielders to deliver the punch into the Mid-Board if you don‘t pay the Price of 80 points for a Rhino.

Sadly I feel like there is a missed opportunity in extra 0cp overwatches on Characters which would Support the feeling of a counter punching faction.

 

• Counter-synergys all over the place.

from plague Marines ability that encourage you to stay on objectives in combination with sticky obj. Which encourage you to leave it ….to  lethal hits ignoring toughness, invalidating our -1 toughness aura faction ability.

 

All in all ….. more bad rules than good. Many overcosted units in comparison to most other factions.

Look for good Deals across eBay & co.

Many poeple cannot endure the pain of this sickness …but remember, nurgles Gifts are for those who endure!

Bad rules will Change (damn you Tzeentch) and as hard and unfun it is, we have to wait and takes a few games in to find a worthy tactic for now.

 

looking forward to Battle Reports of our Boys and would love to be proven wrong.

 

 

 

 

[happyslugger]

Well, I had a little test game against myself Marines vs DG  and kept it pretty basic so I could try and learn some of the new rules.  I packed up in round three as I had a 10 man squad of PM with surgeon and foul blight spawn and two terminators left on the board.  The marines had suffered very little in the way of casualties and still had a repulsor at full wounds, gladiator lancer, about 8 desolation squad marines, 5 intercessors, some heavy Intercessors with Gravis Captain, Primaris chaplain on bike, tech marine, incursors, there were about 5 hell blasters left with the apothecary.........you get the picture.

 

Oath of moment is bonkers and marines got turn one and blew one PBC up and left the other on 4 wounds (just shooting from the repulsor and gladiator).  I couldn't really do much against the marine tanks after that..The hellbrute was pretty useless and the drones managed to tie up some blade guard and the bike chaplain with outriders.

 

I am by no means the greatest player and these were not optimised lists, just what I thought may do okay...but man the marines have far better shooting than we DG players do.

[mel_danes]

Happy were you testing at 2000 pts?

Sounds like a lot of units on the table. I think like last edition train will be important to break up those fire lanes.

I'd love a little more info, thanks for your testing.

[happyslugger]

Yes 2k points. I've scribbled the lists somewhere but I'm two whisky's into my evening so will look tomorrow.

 

I played with a fair amount terrain but the smaller table sizes don't help much with 72 inch range weapons.

 

There were a fair amount of units on the board and like I said I am not an expert and was trying to play two armies lol but DG had very little in the way of answers to the marine stuff. 

 

I thought about taking a couple of pictures and probably should have.  What made me giggle was when I managed to charge my LOC and deathshroud into 5 heavy intercessors and gravis captain.  Managed to take out two intercessors but the captain slapped my deathshroud around.

 

Oath of moment is point and delete basically, so no chance in running Morty, he will just get taken out first turn without much effort.

 

If I get chance tomorrow I'll post the lists :-)