Death Guard Index

[Dark Legionnare]

Got games for tomorrow with some buds. Will let you know how it goes.

 

List I made is: (Using force org for organizations sake even though its gone. WYSIWYG to what I have built since I'll die on that hill, even with the points deficite of not taking everything possible on the PM's since it's free. Fists = "heavy plague weapon")

 

HQ:

-DGDP, no wings, w/living plague enhance

-LoV

 

Troops:

-PM x10: 2 plasma, blight launcher,  plasma and fist on sarge

-PM x10: 2 plasma, plasma and fist on sarg

-PM x5: plasma and fist on sarge

-Cultists, x10 w/heavy stub, & flamer

 

Elites:

-Helbrute w/TWLC & fist (the ol' nurgle dread)

-Blightlords, x5, flail, all others plague combis and power weapons

-Tallyman

-Biologus

 

Heavy Support:

-PBC, w/entropy & rothail

-PBC, w/entropy & rothail

-Defiler, w/flail & plague heavy bolter

 

Dedicated Transports

-Rhino, w/havoc and combi

-Rhino, w/havoc and combi

 

Aimed around a list to see how LoV does come arriving turn 2 to help the heavies hit better.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Plaguecaster]

I will try and use alot of the old DG units as stuff like predators and Defilers actually seem useable now. Helbrutes whilst expensive seem a very nice way of tagging stuff to be within contagion range so easier to kill stuff at range. Alot of the stuff seems extremely expensive for what it is but will try and make something at least and fun to use, just wont be including much plague marines which seems wrong with how expensive you have to mkae them with characters and transport just make worthwhile. At least with the Chaos pact have the perfect excuse to get the amazing Great Unclean box as Rotigus seems like a cool and fluffy addition to a Death Guard force.

Wonder what best loadout for a helbrute is

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Plaguecaster

[KingYertle]

Greetings Plague Brethren

 

Lord Sepsis made his return for 10th in a couple Only War games, 1k vs Druhkari and 2k vs Marines.   Here are a few observations.

 

Our vehicles are significantly tougher vs light weapons, but Factions that can spam long range anti-tank weapons (like Dark Lances and Lascannons) will have no trouble downing them quickly.  Losing DR on vehicles felt much more impactful than on our infantry.  Neither opponent had difficulty taking out my vehicles within the first couple turns of the game.

 

Most of our anti-tank weaponry is only available on vehicles, but even those weapons are more midrange than long range.  This was an issue in both games, as both opponents could keep their anti-tank weaponry outside of my range and pick off their targets.  Once my vehicles were down, my ability to impact the game downrange was significantly neutered.  24inch range on PBC Entropy Cannons is particularly rough.

 

Maybe it was the 2 Factions I played against, but both were able to spread out and control the table quickly.  I expected this from the Dark Eldar, but Advance and Shoot on T1 in particular really changes how Marines control the table.  The Board Control made it difficult to bring in Reserves where I needed them.

 

In 9th an opponent closing the gap was a good thing, as Death Guard were a good counter punch army.  However, In both test games, I really struggled to punch back and to finish targets off, but neither opponent had the same issue.  The loss of good melee weapons was a big part of that but more surprising was the Range issue as our short movement and short range weapons made it difficult to focus fire on a priority targets.  For example, in T1 vs the Marines my entire army was only able to kill 4 Heavy Intercessors and 3 Aggressors.  

 

Melee, especially into Marines, was a real disappointment after how fun and Dangerous Death Guard were at close range in 9th.  For example, in 2 rounds of combat my melee focused 10 model Plague Marine unit (which cost 410 points including characters and the rhino) only managed to kill 2.5 Bladeguard!   We really need some way to fall back and shoot or otherwise fire our flamers in melee.  This seems like a Huge oversight, especially as we had a great strat for turning grenades into pistols in 9th.  

 

Based on list construction it felt like I was paying a points premium for “tough” units but in BOTH Games I was functionally tabled by the end of T3.  Being unable to impact the win scenario in turns 4+5 is ultimately why I lost both games.  It was clear our units are over-costed.

 

Heavy Intercessors are T6 with 3 Wounds AND they get +1 to saves vs D1.  THEY COST 2 POINTS MORE THAN A PLAGUE MARINE…   It Hurts so Bad….

 

Lastly Oath of Moment is a terrible Game Mechanic in that it creates a real “feels bad” situation.  My opponent actually commented on how it felt like we were playing 2 different games as he had re-rolls almost everywhere and I had none.  The re-rolls make Marines brutally efficient while my return punch was anemic.  

 

Some Good News:

 

Typhus is Awesome.  Despite nuking his own squad twice (1st 2 times I used it funny enough!) his psychic attack finally feels like it lives up to the fluff.  I might have actually tied the game vs Druhkari if I hadn’t rolled that second 1.  Not being able to re-roll with a command reroll is frustrating, especially when you can re-roll the hazardous roll.    

 

Poxwalkers can’t kill anything, but damn can they soak up Damage!  

 

At only 135 points, the Wardog with Executioner AutoCannons provided exactly what I needed.  He sat in the back of my DZ and killed a couple Gravis Marines each turn.  I will be building another one.   

 

 

But its a sad day when my VIP wasn’t even a Death Guard unit.

Edited June 18, 2023 by KingYertle

[DemonGSides]

I had a similar experience. My list was;

 

Morty

3x Myphitic Blight Haulers

2x Plague Burst Cannons

Lord of Virulence

5x Blightlord Terminators

10x Plague Marines (melee focussed, 4x heavy 4x bubonic, Champ with heavy and plasma pistol, last guy with a plague spewer)

Attached terrible guys; Blightbringer(he was fine) and plaguecaster (he was fine I guess)

10x Plague Marines (shooty focussed, 2x spewer, 2x Belcher, champion had a plasma gun)

Attached tallyman and icon bearer and was just gonna have them camp and do overwatch

 

I just got basically tabled on turn 3 against necrons. Nothing I did could keep enough damage on them not to reanimation protocols EVERY turn, between the freebie they get from overlords and the strategem and then their own reanimation protocols and orbs and reanimation walkers. It's just so much synergy, meanwhile my guys pumped out -1 toughness in melee. It's a joke.

 

Also Vargard Oberyn and Nemessor jerk face giving their unit if praetorians 4+ FNP basically meant I could do nothing to them when combined with reanimation protocols. It was bananas. Bananas I say. 

[happyslugger]

So @DemonGSides and @KingYertle had the exact same experience as I did (although I played against myself).

 

I agree with the heavy intercessors being bonkers for their points, they will remain in my marine list (and I have ten more to build and paint). 

 

I couldn't really dent the Repulsor, which had no issues taking my first PBC T1 with oath of moments and the gladiator lancer almost nuked my second PBC T1 but luckily only hit once with its main weapon (for simplicity I didn't use any strats or re-rolls for either army, just their basic rules).

 

I took ten desolators and these just caused more issues from range against my drones (I took three, two mowers and 1 heavy launcher). 

 

I ran typhus with 20 poxwalkers also, and agree his ability to look at something and cause mortals is good, but his little band of warriors was nothing compared to the ten hellblasters with apothecary.  Those things are bonkers and can just fire on death most of the time and then the apothecary just brings one back.  I used these in the middle of the board and by turn three they still had six left, who then deleted Typhus.  

 

I ran 6 blade guard in an impulsor down one flank and chaplain on bike with three outriders down the other. Even the impulsor was difficult to take down.

 

Marines are in a very different league than DG I would say and it makes me wonder if GW have some new models for marines to come out lol so the rules are now awesome.

 

Even without the two tanks, I think the DG would have struggled as the hellblasters are hard to shift, the blade guard are hard to shift, and it would have only allowed more bodies for the marines, who could count on good shooting from the desolation squad. 

 

I'm not sure I know a counter for marines but will try again (against my son's ultramarines) next week...lord help me if he brings girlyman...otherwise that's two oaths of moment a turn (potentially) and that's even worse, plus you can't switch it off as he will be hid behind a load of marine bodies and you'll need to get close fast, which we can't do....

Edited June 18, 2023 by happyslugger

[Ironjin90]

I have searched for combinations that could do the work and will try to use the Chaos lords Aura ability „each enemy within contagion range suffer d3 mortals on a 4+“.

 

If you could stack abilities up to increase the Chaos Lords contagion range…..there at least is potential i think.

 

Mortarion gives +3 range on contagion 

 

Enhancements: Living Plague (+3 Aura)

 

Icon bearer: one turn contagion range becomes 12

 

so added up the Chaos lord could get a contagion range of „18“ !!!

 

Does the core rules give us a Maximum on Aura ranges anywhere? I haven‘t found limitations on Auras.

 

You could do the Same thing for the Noxious Blightbringer for fun, but playability would depent strongly on the enemys leadership and the number of battleshocks we can spam.

[DemonGSides]

No but I don't think there's enough contamination synergy beyond that one thing. Like compare to how often necrons can influence and cause reanimation protocols, D3 mortals once a turn is a joke.  You could hit all three and whatever you're targeting is guaranteed to heal half since they have a floor of 2 wounds per model if the units have the right leader, which of course they will.

 

The indexes all feel like they were written by different people with no collaboration between them. 

[happyslugger]

And, if you bring Morty and the other side have a few anti tank guns, he will get obliterated pretty swiftly I think.  I was going to use him yesterday, but didn't, as I would have just put oath of moment on him T1 and he wouldn't have lived.  We can try and hide him, but the marines move pretty quickly and can reposition with ease (never mind their advance and shoot).

 

I am going to try again next weekend and try and hide more DG stuff out of line of sight as best I can, see if they survive a little bit and bring them out once entropy canons have range?  Trouble is, this just means your poxwalkers / PM squad / Drones will just be deleted if they are the only targets for oath of moment that turn...

[DemonGSides]

I brought him but he mostly just drew fire. His weapons aren't strong enough in either mode to do what they need in melee and he's so :cuss:ing big that hiding him is still tough.

 

He :cuss:ed up The Silent King with his shooting pretty okay, but then he got tied up in melee and I stupidly didn't just fall back and hide for a turn. He died by end of 2nd turn. 

[jaxom]

17 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Oberyn and Nemessor jerk face giving their unit if praetorians 4+ FNP

Oby just gives the FnP to character models in the unit.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

Oby just gives the FnP to character models in the unit.

 

That would've changed things for sure, but I don't think it would've changed the outcome of the battle. Mortarion might've lived one more turn. 

[Dark Legionnare]

Games went okay. Won one (necrons), because of a mistake on one friends end that let me out-OC a vehicle on a point with pile ins from the cultists, where I would've absolutely lost if he didn't make the obvious blunder.

 

Other (sm) was lost, not handily, but by enough to see the writing on the wall early on.

 

Keenly felt a lack of durability across both games vs crons and Space Marines. Plague marines were not doing much of anything against SM stuff with 2+ saves, and they were getting swept off the board without effort quite handily.

 

Oath of moment is absolute madness.  Immediately deleted my PBC's one turn after another with tons of DMG 2 & 3 via grav more than anything else without breaking a sweat. Then the defiler in turn three.

 

In both games I keenly felt how the toughness boost (with nothing else) was of limited gain, but slowness was crippling.  Crons having OCP full wound rerolls on warrior blobs (via an overlord) was slaying the PM's in droves. Too fast for a surgeon to have been of any value. SM heavy intercessors were AGGRAVATINGLY far, far more durable and gunning down my PM's. Doing so at what my friend told me was barely more points than my PM's. (but I haven't checked yet to confirm.)

 

The mechanics of 10th I'm okay with, the points seem pretty whonky in many places. Like, how his three tac squads each had ranged AT in the form of lascannons; that was a glaring "This squad is cheaper than mine, but dealing good damage that matters, at range." IE, beyond 24".

 

Death guard durability didn't feel like it was there, at all, and that was just a bummer to feel like I was playing slower, much more anemic space marines.

 

LoV helping the defiler and PBC's out was actually loads of fun. Glad he has a purpose finally. He was very good at enabling them to do damage to key units.

 

I'm not doom and gloom, I'll keep trying 10th. But damn, it felt very discouraging over all to be out-durabled by some heavy ints and warrior blobs taking advantage of points+orbs.  Warriors I don't hold it against, but them + free wound rerolls made higher toughness of PM invalid.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[happyslugger]

I may try this list on the weekend (against my son's UM with girlyman).

 

Typhus 

LOV

 

3 x 20 Poxwalkers (Typhus will be with one group).

 

10 PMs with mix of range and melee.

Surgeon and FBspawn to run with them.

 

Mower Drone - perhaps with Poxwalkers to add some additional bite / counter charge something.

 

2 x Haulers for their wonderful anti-tank....

 

5 x B.L Terms with flail and blight launcher

 

3 x D.Shroud to run with LOV (may drop him in with the blightlords haven't decided).

 

2 x PBC and try and hide them out of sight for a turn. 

 

Leaves enough points for three enhancements (shamble rot, L.Plague and Deadly Pathogens?).

 

Just going to try and advance the poxwalkers as much as I can and see if I can tie up some units to ease the first turn or two.

 

I am not sure what else I can do realistically.  I could drop the PMs and associated characters and add in another drone / PBC?

 

My son is likely to run a couple of dreads / tanks in his list, so I expect there to be a fair amount of anti-tank fire, or at least enough to take out a PBC a turn with Oath.  He can also then use Girlyman to point and potentially delete another unit using his second oath of moment ability.  I am thinking if he brings two redemptors, two of the new Gladiators and 10 desolation marines, that would probably be enough to delete two of my vehicles a turn?

Edited June 20, 2023 by happyslugger

[Plague _Lord]

I have yet to have seen a batrep in which DG isn't tabled by turn 3.

After the points dropped it's obvious that GW just doesn't care about this faction or balance. 

Where are the GW apologists now? Playing DG at tournaments are they?

[DemonGSides]

On 6/20/2023 at 9:51 AM, happyslugger said:

I may try this list on the weekend (against my son's UM with girlyman).

 

Typhus 

LOV

 

3 x 20 Poxwalkers (Typhus will be with one group).

 

10 PMs with mix of range and melee.

Surgeon and FBspawn to run with them.

 

Mower Drone - perhaps with Poxwalkers to add some additional bite / counter charge something.

 

2 x Haulers for their wonderful anti-tank....

 

5 x B.L Terms with flail and blight launcher

 

3 x D.Shroud to run with LOV (may drop him in with the blightlords haven't decided).

 

2 x PBC and try and hide them out of sight for a turn. 

 

Leaves enough points for three enhancements (shamble rot, L.Plague and Deadly Pathogens?).

 

Just going to try and advance the poxwalkers as much as I can and see if I can tie up some units to ease the first turn or two.

 

I am not sure what else I can do realistically.  I could drop the PMs and associated characters and add in another drone / PBC?

 

My son is likely to run a couple of dreads / tanks in his list, so I expect there to be a fair amount of anti-tank fire, or at least enough to take out a PBC a turn with Oath.  He can also then use Girlyman to point and potentially delete another unit using his second oath of moment ability.  I am thinking if he brings two redemptors, two of the new Gladiators and 10 desolation marines, that would probably be enough to delete two of my vehicles a turn?

 

I don't hate the list, but it's got the same problem all DG lists do; you've got two units that can run upfield before turn 3, all of which are gonna get popped by Oath of Moment as soon as possible. Since you're not running a full 3, I'd split the myphitics into two of their own units (No penalty).

I still think you're gonna get shot off the board by turn 3 even with this list, especially when fighting against double redemptor and a gladiator.  God speed!

23 hours ago, Plague _Lord said:

I have yet to have seen a batrep in which DG isn't tabled by turn 3.

After the points dropped it's obvious that GW just doesn't care about this faction or balance. 

Where are the GW apologists now? Playing DG at tournaments are they?

 

Do you really think they think about this stuff actively, or is the dramatic reenactment part of the healing process?

The faction is poorly balanced.  It can be fixed with time.  

Edited June 21, 2023 by Xenith

[happyslugger]

Yes I should have made it clear that the MBH would be individual units.

 

I've sat and scratched my head and just can't see anything that I can put together that has the chance to last longer than T3. 

 

Given I know roughly what he will bring I imagine lasting until T3 will be a blessing.  He will have the firepower and re-rolls to easily delete two PBCs a turn and then T2 my drone / MBH are gone.  I won't have much left come T3, certainly nothing that's going to dent his armour.

[Dark Legionnare]

2 hours ago, happyslugger said:

Yes I should have made it clear that the MBH would be individual units.

 

I've sat and scratched my head and just can't see anything that I can put together that has the chance to last longer than T3. 

 

Given I know roughly what he will bring I imagine lasting until T3 will be a blessing.  He will have the firepower and re-rolls to easily delete two PBCs a turn and then T2 my drone / MBH are gone.  I won't have much left come T3, certainly nothing that's going to dent his armour.

Reminds me. Something I forgot to mention in my last post. The 24" on entropy cannons is brutal, haha.  At least at 36" if something like a Lascannon was outranging you there was a good chance of slapping it back if you survived.  The PBC's felt like they were limping towards the enemy with the EC's being out of range for so much of the game of things they'd want to shoot.

[Plaguecaster]

So the combat patrol has better stratagem than the index and a far nicer ability that actually allows poxwalkers to deep strike or to restore destroyed models 

Plus biggest kick in the guts is that plague marines can actually be taken in 7 man squads 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Plaguecaster

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Okay, time to break out the orange font.  I have hidden a number of inflamatory posts where 2 users in particular have been going at it hammer and tongs with personal attacks rather than argueing the merits of each others positions.  Both know better.  Any further such posts here will result in the locking of this thread and likely to disciplinary action.

 

 

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

Hey look, Death Guard ranked dead last...

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[KingYertle]

"Its basically like you design an army and say with your philosophy this army just shouldn't do anything.  First of all it shouldn't have any design philosophy it should just be a collection of datasheets all of which basically do nothing.  This army is horrendous"  

 

Ouch

 

And that from someone who is arguably the best competitive 40k player in the world.

[Special Officer Doofy]

51 minutes ago, KingYertle said:

"Its basically like you design an army and say with your philosophy this army just shouldn't do anything.  First of all it shouldn't have any design philosophy it should just be a collection of datasheets all of which basically do nothing.  This army is horrendous"  

 

Ouch

 

And that from someone who is arguably the best competitive 40k player in the world.

 

It's terrible. Losing DR with no replacement hurt. Giving FnP and -1D to others made it worse. Losing movement on top of durability without gaining anything hurts. Morty got neutered.

 

Points were the nail in the coffin. 2 pts more than a plague marine for a heavy intercessor with 1" more movement, 1 more toughness, 1 more wound, better ranged weapons and cherry on top, can take a FnP for a detachment bonus. Fire prisms being 50 points cheaper than the PBC is bad. Really bad.

[happyslugger]

Wonder if GW are trying to get DG players to buy into another army if they only have DG?

 

I have multiple armies (more a collector) so it's not a big deal for me. If DG suck all of 10th I can pick up marines, eldar, Tsons and so on.  

[DemonGSides]

I mean, they are a company, so yes, they want you to buy as much as possible.

 

Trying to look into business decisions in the rules indexes is like trying to divine the future from chicken bones. You might end up right but not because of any actual ability. Stopped clock is right twice a day, after all. 

[Plaguecaster]

I only play DG with a handful of Daemon units but will never go anything not nurgle as none of them interest in the slightest.

I started my love for Nurgle back in high school when I got my hands on one of the old chaos codex books back when they were part of CSM still, seeing how disgusting and corrupted they were like actual zombie marines and their amazing fluff was what made me start playing DG in the first place, now at 30 seeing all the things I loved about thr Death Guard be completely nerfed or removed so barely resemble their lore if the legions identity is just a kick in the guts 

 

Anyways in the attempt to stay positive and try out some stuff to at keast try and keep me busy with interesting army ideas that actually seem like it won't be depressing to be tabled with how's this sound for an idea 

 

Plaguecaster 

Rotigus

putrifier 

10 plague marines 2x spewers and as much of the melee weapons as can take 

Rhino

2x 20 man poxwalkers

2x helbrutes with Las and hammers

2x predator destructors with heavy bolters havoc launcher and combi boler

2x predator Annilators with double lascannons 

Defiler with lascannon and heavy flamer

 

Trying a more old deathguard force focusing on the old units like predators etc with some poxwalkers for old plague zombie ferl

I would like to include more plague marines but at same time having to dedicate so much points to make them viable with character support and transport is a hard pill to swallow. Rotigus is probably a waste but such an amazing model and a nice nostalgia of the older editions where you could have a greater daemon leading a host of the deathguard