Death Guard Index

[Bulwyf]

I will try to sound positive. DG is so bad and it is so wildly talked about and agreed upon that I think GW might actually do something. A simple points drop, while needed, doesn't address the real issues that the index rules frankly are just terrible. Could we perhaps see them change some? I hope so. The army is so bad that GW will have to do something to address this. 

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, Bulwyf said:

I will try to sound positive. DG is so bad and it is so wildly talked about and agreed upon that I think GW might actually do something. A simple points drop, while needed, doesn't address the real issues that the index rules frankly are just terrible. Could we perhaps see them change some? I hope so. The army is so bad that GW will have to do something to address this. 

I think you could go a long way to fixing Death Guard playing with just the points and offering another detachment with better detachment rules and you wouldn't need to amend the unit cards (admittedly amending a lot of the unit cards would help, but realistically a 'fix' release of a new detachment is less of an admission of failure).

 

A new detachment which replaces the laughable spread the sickness with a universal 5+ feel no pain (or 4+ for any unit that already has Fnp) and gives better strats and you aren't far off.

[happyslugger]

Second game, this time against my son who went a little easy on me. Main threats on his side were a redemptor, new dread (he borrowed mine) 6 blade guard, hellblaster shenanigans, two squads of 5 desolation marines and two units of those troops that block deep strikes within 12, I forgot the rest. He won 70 something to my 52 (IRC).  All I had left on the table at the end of T5 was Typhus + 16 ish poxwalkers and a LOV and LOC each with 2 wounds.  He was on all the objectives and had 6 hellblasters and apothecary, redemptor, new ballistus dread, and a couple of other things.

 

It's embarrassing when your deathshroud and LOC bounce off 5 heavy intercessors and a gravis captain lol.

 

If he'd brought his tanks and girlyman I think I'd have faired much, much worse. 

 

My list was not too different to previous when I played against myself as marines.

 

I can try predators and landraider next time but oath is just too strong and I just feel our PBC fold like wet paper. So I'm not sure predators and a landraider will do much better. 

 

 

[DemonGSides]

I"m fine with the PBC's being worse than other tanks in a tank v tank fight, since they are really artillery pieces not actually tanks.  So ostensibly that makes sense.

It's more or less that we just don't do... anything.  No damage, no way to make it stick, no way to make chip damage worthwhile by mitigating our own damage.

Meanwhile Heavy Intercessors do everything we want.  So sad.

[happyslugger]

Yes but a T10, W12, 5++ doesn't go very far, especially when the target of Oath :-/

 

Heck, two Ballistus dread lascannon shots with oath will pretty much wipe it out and if they don't then the missiles will. I think oath is too strong personally.

 

We don't deal that much damage at range or melee really, and the -1 T hasn't been useful at all in my two games.

 

The mortar is okay against marines at S8 but it's seriously outranged by marine firepower. As soon as my PBC have popped their heads out they have been wiped easily, usually by the the first model that fired at it, the rest of the army didn't need to..(first was a repulsor, this game a ballistus).

 

I think T12 is a good spot, T9/T10 is still quite vulnerable in my limited experience (I am no expert).

 

We have agreed another game next week but I'm rolling 2k harlequins against his marines, so won't have anything to report here.  

 

If you guys / gals have some success let me know.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by happyslugger

[Plaguecaster]

Yeah unfortunately PBCs are pretty overcosted but don’t really offer much in the way of durability for their points. They should have higher T or at least some sort of damage mitigation so they don’t get removed anytime they get hit with any serious anti tank  weapons 

[tychobi]

OK so 3 games in with Death guard index and I'm tapping. It's not just that our units are bad.  There is nothing actually fun or surprising about the army. No interesting strats. Nothing to turn a game around, nothing to gun for.  Bad and boring will be hard to fix. Points alone won't do it. 

[DemonGSides]

Yeah I accidentally just won an ebay listing (I wasn't super serious about buying it, threw out a cheeky low bid, it won) of 3 more Bloat Drones and i'm just like... not even enthused to turn the one I have already that's unpainted into a Greater Bloat Drone.

And my Death Guard were my most painted up faction too.  Guess I gotta go play with my other Power Armor :P

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Yeah I accidentally just won an ebay listing (I wasn't super serious about buying it, threw out a cheeky low bid, it won) of 3 more Bloat Drones and i'm just like... not even enthused to turn the one I have already that's unpainted into a Greater Bloat Drone.

And my Death Guard were my most painted up faction too.  Guess I gotta go play with my other Power Armor :P

 

I bet now is a great time to scoop up Death Guard models at rock bottom prices on eBay if one has the patience for the inevitable improvement in 1 to 3 years. Buy the dip and hold.

[DemonGSides]

That's mostly my plan.  Keeping an eye out for my last PBC and then maybe I can find some Blightlords on the cheap over the coming months!

[Azekai]

Proxying is always an option. In another thread I mentioned using plague marines as heavy intercessors. I think having access to dreadnoughts that don’t suck and abusing Oath of Moment sounds fun. 

 

I also play One Page Rules and I really enjoy using my Death Guard in that game. 
 

I hate that people’s enthusiasm for the Death Guard is getting killed off by this crappy edition, but there are ways of using your dudes without auto-losing.

[Bulwyf]

So the latest results are in for 10th edition. With over 4000 plus games played DG is literally DEAD LAST in wining percentage.

 

A measly 28 percent. Meaning players are not even winning three out of ten games. We all knew our rules were terrible but this is laugh out loud game balance on full display.

[happyslugger]

Yes I can believe it. I won't bother with my DG now until they fix the whole situation.

 

I played my Harlequins Vs Tsons 2k yesterday and by turn 4 there was Ahriman left and a whole lot of harlequins.  

 

The solitaire is mental and took out 10 scarabs without help. 115 points Vs 410.

 

Eldar are mad broken I think. Hope the individual who posted in here asking for help against eldar faired better. 

[Plague _Lord]

Played my 1st 10th game against world eaters and... got tabled byt turn 4. They shot better and they meleed better and they had better strats/army rules.

 

My infantry were folding like wet paper, while my tanks did meagre damage.

 

And world eaters are barely a mid tier army...

[Urauloth]

On 6/26/2023 at 9:42 PM, Rain said:

 

I bet now is a great time to scoop up Death Guard models at rock bottom prices on eBay

I still plan to build a whole plague colony's worth of DG regardless of the rules situation because I like the models, so I should get on that.

[Plague _Lord]

11 hours ago, Urauloth said:

I still plan to build a whole plague colony's worth of DG regardless of the rules situation because I like the models, so I should get on that.

 

This is the way.

 

I've done a reorganizing of my minature cupboard and found an unfinished box of plague marines I was holding for good flamer rules so I made them. Also love that new Daemon Prince model and am thinking of getting him... Counted up that I have over 60 plague marines, 30 terminators and a motor pool above 10... and am thinking about getting some more drones and Nurgle Daemons... (need that 3rd Great Unclean One) think I have a problem :D

[BrainFireBob]

Anyone tried bringing a knight?

[Iron Sage]

On 6/24/2023 at 9:21 AM, Bulwyf said:

I will try to sound positive. DG is so bad and it is so wildly talked about and agreed upon that I think GW might actually do something. A simple points drop, while needed, doesn't address the real issues that the index rules frankly are just terrible. Could we perhaps see them change some? I hope so. The army is so bad that GW will have to do something to address this. 

I agree. For once, I think they actually have to do something since even a blind fool can see that the index is far too weak. We are not alone in having a relatively weak index, but ours is just simply too weak, there can be no debate even on that.

Also, as you say, the problem is the rules in the index themselves, not merely the points. A Plaguemarine is not bad in itself or overcosted compared to other astartes, but the army rules overall, makes them weak. And our terminators, supposedly kind of elite, are the cheapest there are now for a reason. But being the cheapest does not really help them...

 

Personally, I was very positive towards 10th, but when the indexes came, I became alarmed ( the extreme inbalance between them, it is as if game devs do not communicate, it is simply a terrible job, and I am not just talking about Death Guard but the vast chasm between good and bad) and when the munitorium manual came with fixed squad sizes which destroys granularity and free weapons (everyone will pick the same weapons obviously, since points don't matter, just omph does), I was shocked.

I don't understand how it is even possible to publish this and suspect there has been barely any testing. The problem is, you only need a cursory look at some indexes to see obvious problems without testing. I mean, I play Death Guard mainly, but I also have TS and Necrons from Indomitus and a few reinforcements. I recently played a 10th game against Word Bearers with my small Necrons army and barely won in the last turn. We played 920 points (35 points in enhancements), which is what indomitus is points-wise. I won against a hand picked list, I just played with what I had painted and still won. Why ? Because my Necron characters are stupid strong to a silly degree. 4+ FNP for 10 points (lol) on a Skorphek lord and a stratagem to bring him back with half wounds (lol, how the did they think this would be balanced?) and an overlord who just doesn't died easily either. But enough about that game, my point is just that it is all so obvious. You don't actually need to test even to see how much stronger some Indexes are than others. So I don't get it.

Why don't I get it ? Well, because they want to sell those Ad-Mech and Death Guard models, so it is in their interest to have a some what balanced game, but no. Of course, WH40K has never been truly balanced, some codices always a bit stronge than othes, but never in my memory to this degree. 

 

So yes, I think they actually will have to do something. But will they even if it is in their interest? i don't know.. It's a large company, and not everyone who works with game mechanics seems to be particularly bright. So who the knows. But even so, they surely must do something and I believe they will. It will probably take a couple of months or 3 though.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Iron Sage

[Rain]

According to anonymous hearsay on this site, no time at all was allocated to playtesting by the powers that be, with the only playtesting being rules writers playing quick games over lunch. On the one hand, it’s anonymous hearsay, on the other hand, the results kind of speak for themselves.

 

That said, they will see DG sales drop which will spur them to action. Hell, they might even overcompensate in the usual GW manner and make DG as good as Custodes or something. But it won’t be a matter of months. It’s probably going to take getting the codex for meaningful changes, but this uproar might nudge you guys up in the codex release order if it results in enough lost sales.

[Tokugawa]

DG have too good average model quality, and Nurgle has very special aesthetics style. Also, DG are marine.

So when the win% of DG is very bad, DG still had some sales. This happened in 8th and 9th.

[Plaguecaster]

So they didnt change anything with the recent update as more to nerf mostly all toweing and  indirect fire units but PBC is untouched as they probably thought nerfing the pbc anymore was too cruel even for them. Our only change is that we can now take 7 man plague marine squads so yay... nothing else changed even though there Iis so much wrong with us but we now can take 7man  plague marine squads so that surely will help DG alot now I bet 

[happyslugger]

I posted a comment along those lines in the main discussion post. 

 

7 man PM squads ..yippee...all my problems are solved lol.

 

My DG are staying on the shelf until they get sorted. 

[Reyner]

I played a 2k points game last night and only lost by 4 victory points - granted it was against leagues of Votann but it didn't feel too bad. Next game is against Tau so I will be a salty grump next week 

[Plaguecaster]

1 hour ago, Reyner said:

I played a 2k points game last night and only lost by 4 victory points - granted it was against leagues of Votann but it didn't feel too bad. Next game is against Tau so I will be a salty grump next week 

What did you take for your list?

 

I have a 1k game this weekend against blood angels 

trying out a few different units to try them out and see how they go

 

Disciples of Pustulence (990 Points)

Death Guard
Plague Company
Incursion (1000 Points)

CHARACTERS

Biologus Putrifier (60 Points)
    • 1x Hyper blight grenades
      1x Injector pistol
      1x Plague knives

Malignant Plaguecaster (100 Points)
    • Warlord
    • 1x Corrupted staff
      1x Plague Wind
      1x Plague bolt pistol
    • Enhancements: Shamblerot

BATTLELINE

Plague Marines (200 Points)
    • 1x Plague Champion
        • 1x Heavy plague weapon
          1x Plasma gun
    • 9x Plague Marine
        • 2x Blight launcher
          1x Bubotic weapons
          2x Heavy plague weapon
          9x Plague knives
          2x Plague spewer
          2x Plasma gun

OTHER DATASHEETS

Death Guard Helbrute (155 Points)
    • 1x Close combat weapon
      1x Heavy flamer
      1x Helbrute fist
      1x Helbrute plasma cannon

Death Guard Predator Destructor (140 Points)
    • 1x Armoured tracks
      1x Havoc launcher
      1x Plague combi-bolter
      2x Plague heavy bolter
      1x Predator autocannon

Poxwalkers (60 Points)
    • 10x Improvised weapon

Poxwalkers (60 Points)
    • 10x Improvised weapon

ALLIED UNITS

Soul Grinder (215 Points)
    • Daemonic Allegiance: Nurgle
    • 1x Harvester cannon
      1x Iron claw
      1x Phlegm bombardment
      1x Warpclaw

should be interesting 

[jaxom]

@Plaguecaster, please let us know how it goes. I have suspicion DG perform better than one might expect in 1000 point games because I’d guess that’s what (rumor has) was playtested during lunches. Basically, I doubt a 2K game got played during lunch.